Thread: Speaker suggestions for large room

KEF R11. The Uni-Q driver provides great dispersion and allows the entire room to sound good. Good luck with your search!

Not that any of us expect a reply since you only posted twice on the same day a month ago, but...

Encore - Tekton Design | Improve your hearing

They're on sale right now for $7k shipped to your door.

Subs won't add to the room-filling sound you are looking for. They just add bass weight and should be avoided in 2-channel systems if possible.

There's are a few omni-directional speakers around that may be good in your room. A sketch of the room with speaker positions would be helpful. Do you want the speakers mid-room or against a wall? Makes a big difference to what should be recommended! Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Subs won't add to the room-filling sound you are looking for. They just add bass weight and should be avoided in 2-channel systems if possible.

There's are a few omni-directional speakers around that may be good in your room. A sketch of the room with speaker positions would be helpful. Do you want the speakers mid-room or against a wall? Makes a big difference to what should be recommended! Peter

Again, he hasn't posted or replied in a month. Only two posts made on the same day in this very thread.

Also, I highly disagree with your statement of "avoiding subwoofers in a 2-channel system". I know plenty of others disagree as well.

Originally Posted by chops

Again, he hasn't posted or replied in a month. Only two posts made on the same day in this very thread.

Also, I highly disagree with your statement of "avoiding subwoofers in a 2-channel system". I know plenty of others disagree as well.

Interesting that you seem to suggest that occasional posters are less worthy than frequent posters. I've posted at the rate of over 19 per month since I joined this forum, whereas you have posted at the rate of less than 15 per month. Totally irrelevant of course but this fact addresses your concerns hopefully!

In my view, if you purchase good full-range speakers for 2 channel listening you shouldn't need a subwoofer. The trouble with subs is they are more often than not manufactured by a different company than the main speakers. Balancing subs is notoriously difficult, made worse by 2 "house sounds". A well designed speaker incorporating big bass drivers should normally be better for 2 channel music.

Subs are good to add daft levels of slam when watching films etc with earthquakes, volcanos or seas smashing against harbour walls, but good quality floorstanders will accurately reproduce music created by musical instruments. Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Interesting that you seem to suggest that occasional posters are less worthy than frequent posters. I've posted at the rate of over 19 per month since I joined this forum, whereas you have posted at the rate of less than 15 per month. Totally irrelevant of course but this fact addresses your concerns hopefully!

In my view, if you purchase good full-range speakers for 2 channel listening you shouldn't need a subwoofer. The trouble with subs is they are more often than not manufactured by a different company than the main speakers. Balancing subs is notoriously difficult, made worse by 2 "house sounds". A well designed speaker incorporating big bass drivers should normally be better for 2 channel music.

Subs are good to add daft levels of slam when watching films etc with earthquakes, volcanos or seas smashing against harbour walls, but good quality floorstanders will accurately reproduce music created by musical instruments. Peter

Well you see, you're wrong on both accounts...

1st... I wasn't suggesting anything about anyone being less worthy than the other. Just stating a fact.

2nd... Saying subwoofers are "only" good for movies and that large fullrange loudspeakers are good enough on their own, both statements are totally wrong and couldn't be further from the truth.

Properly setting up a pair of subwoofers with ANY loudspeaker on the planet in a 2-channel system takes time and patience, and a lot of it. If you're not willing to put forth the effort, then don't be complaining and down-talking subwoofers when your system's sound quality degrades when you integrate subs into it. 99% of the time, it's NOT the subwoofer(s) fault, it's the lack of proper setup, period.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

Valuable information posted in a thread is not limited to use by the OP.

I never said that either. If I thought that, I wouldn't have posted the link to the Tekton's.

Originally Posted by chops

2nd... Saying subwoofers are "only" good for movies and that large fullrange loudspeakers are good enough on their own, both statements are totally wrong and couldn't be further from the truth.

Subs are a fantastic addition for music. Most speakers on the market won't ever provide the bass weight of standalone subs.


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It's up to the individual for sure. I don't like subs for stereo i've tried over and over and just finally upped my game and got some full range speakers that work in my room even that took a few tries, but to each his own.

Originally Posted by Phishphan

Subs are a fantastic addition for music. Most speakers on the market won't ever provide the bass weight of standalone subs.


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My point is that if you choose a main speaker system that offers the level of bass required for music, you should be better off than mixing one inadequate main speaker's bass with another manufacturer's sub.

Your own system seems to be £15K KEF Reference 5 main speakers with (let's face it) rather puny 6" bass drivers and you add another £15K worth of subs. Perhaps (and that's all I'm saying) that £30K may have been put to better use with bigger-sounding floor standers that would offer bass down to 25Hz without the need for space-gobbling and normally pretty unsightly subs.

My own KEF speakers from years back (107 Reference) used twin 10" drivers, before that my self-built Wharfedale Airedales from the 60s had single 15" drivers and more recently my Avantgardes have either twin 10" or twin 12" drivers. Absolutely no need for subs with any of these systems. You may claim that the AG system is essentially one that includes subs and to an extent you're right. However the system is integrated and tuned by one manufacturer and there are no extra boxes to find space for and no duplication of low frequencies from 2 speakers trying not to argue!

I'm only suggesting that carefully chosen main speakers should not require subs for 2 channel music, but I accept that some prefer small mains and separate subs with the inherent difficulties in getting them to act as one and the extra cost of much more joinery! Peter

Originally Posted by Twp

I have a large room 22ft x 25ft x 12ft high ceilings. One of the 25 ft walls is all glass and floor is concrete so a lot of reflective surface.
Would like to be able to fill the room with good sound as opposed to sitting in a sweet spot. Already have a system for that.
I have an amp with plenty of power and will be streaming hi res music.
Trying to decide if I can achieve good sound with floor standers or will I need to do a setup including subs.
Would like to keep speaker costs at about $7,000
Would love to hear what people think might foot the bill.
Thanks

Magnepan 3.7i will excel in a large room of this size. MSRP $6,600. Due to the hard reflective surfaces, you will probably need to experiment with their tweeter resistors and acoustic panels behind the speakers.

Ken

Since this has derailed from the OP’s content into arguing about subs, I will say it’s pretty outlandish to say so matter of fact subs do not belong in 2chnl. Makes absolutely no sense IMHO but certainly to each their own.

The merits of subs would be better discussed in the appropriate / similar threads on that very topic IMHO

Originally Posted by Hear Here

My point is that if you choose a main speaker system that offers the level of bass required for music, you should be better off than mixing one inadequate main speaker's bass with another manufacturer's sub.

Your own system seems to be £15K KEF Reference 5 main speakers with (let's face it) rather puny 6" bass drivers and you add another £15K worth of subs. Perhaps (and that's all I'm saying) that £30K may have been put to better use with bigger-sounding floor standers that would offer bass down to 25Hz without the need for space-gobbling and normally pretty unsightly subs.

My own KEF speakers from years back (107 Reference) used twin 10" drivers, before that my self-built Wharfedale Airedales from the 60s had single 15" drivers and more recently my Avantgardes have either twin 10" or twin 12" drivers. Absolutely no need for subs with any of these systems. You may claim that the AG system is essentially one that includes subs and to an extent you're right. However the system is integrated and tuned by one manufacturer and there are no extra boxes to find space for and no duplication of low frequencies from 2 speakers trying not to argue!

I'm only suggesting that carefully chosen main speakers should not require subs for 2 channel music, but I accept that some prefer small mains and separate subs with the inherent difficulties in getting them to act as one and the extra cost of much more joinery! Peter

Again, you have it wrong, just like most people who complain about subwoofers.

If you have large floor standing loudspeakers that are well capable of deep bass down into the 30's or 20's, that's great. Adding subs to these types of loudspeakers is NOT about adding more bass weight and impact. Adding subwoofers to these loudspeakers is all about TUNING THE ROOM!

You are adding the subwoofers to tame the peaks, and especially the nulls in the room at low frequencies to provide a much smoother, more natural bass presentation at the listening seat.

My Martin Logan SL3's easily reach down to a usable 25 Hz or so in this current room. They've got plenty of "slam" and impact on their own, but you also notice various bass suck-outs throughout the bass range from around 30 Hz to around 60-70 Hz. Adding the JL e110 subs (moving them all along the front wall and the first 3rd of the side walls), they ended up filling in the majority of those suck-outs (nulls) in the room. Surprisingly, they are not too far away from the woofers in the SL3's, but it's enough of a difference in position to drastically tune the room and get rid of 95% of those pesky nulls in the room.

Lastly, you do NOT hear these subs playing at all. It's like they aren't even in the room. All you notice is a much smoother bass response and a natural, even more usable bass extension down to around 16-18 Hz. You would swear all of that sound is only coming from the SL3's. And all of this is achievable from what most of you would consider a bottom of the barrel budget system. All it takes is proper knowledge, time and patience.


If your system gets too "heavy" sounding by adding subs, you're doing it wrong.

If you can easily tell there are subs playing in your system, you're doing it wrong.

If the sound quality of your system takes a turn for the worse by adding subs, you're doing it wrong.

Wives want subwoofers to be visually invisible.

Audiophiles/musicphiles want the subwoofers to be audibly invisible.

Originally Posted by Swisstrips

Since this has derailed from the OP’s content into arguing about subs, I will say it’s pretty outlandish to say so matter of fact subs do not belong in 2chnl. Makes absolutely no sense IMHO but certainly to each their own.

The merits of subs would be better discussed in the appropriate / similar threads on that very topic IMHO

Yes, the thread has derailed, but I'm just so passionate about subwoofers and treating bass room acoustics with subwoofers. It's what it's all about, tuning the room, not adding more bass to the bass that's already there... Unless of course you have stand mount monitors that leave out the last octave or two of bass content, then subs are required for those. And through all of this, I am ALWAYS referring to using stereo subwoofers. It's the only way to properly integrate into a dedicated 2-channel system.

The requirements and techniques for subwoofers in a dedicated 2-channel system are totally different than those requirements and techniques for subwoofers in multi-channel/home theater systems.

Chops and Octopus

Whilst I certainly agree many of your points, I believe that a carefully set up and DSP-tuned full-range pair of speakers is both more cost-effective and less aesthetically jarring than smaller speakers plus a couple of subs.

> If your system gets too "heavy" sounding by adding subs, you're doing it wrong.

> If you can easily tell there are subs playing in your system, you're doing it wrong.

> If the sound quality of your system takes a turn for the worse by adding subs, you're doing it wrong.

> Wives want subwoofers to be visually invisible.

> Audiophiles/musicphiles want the subwoofers to be audibly invisible.

Totally agreed with the above, although perhaps the last 2 should read:

"Wives would prefer no subwoofer at all" and

"Audiophiles would prefer a speaker that doesn't need subs for sublime sound".

I wonder what proportion of the cost of speakers is related to the cabinet that encloses the drivers and XO? Perhaps up to 50%. With 4 speaker boxes a criminal proportion of your money is going to the joiner who has to make these 4 cabinets. With just one pair of full-range speakers a far larger proportion of your budget could go towards the best drivers and XO. Isn't is worth the effort to investigate the possibility that a single pair of superb speakers costing as much as your present speakers and subs combined, may be able to further improve the sound you enjoy?

Not wanting to promote Avantgarde speakers, but they do offer ample bass from twin 12" drivers per side and include a DSP that allow you to flatten out the peaks and nulls (up to about 150Hz) to suit your room's acoustic difficulties without separate subs. Third party DSP's are designed to do much the same, though my own experience with the 4 systems I've tried at home is not convincing. Yes they flatten out these peaks and nulls, but they also tend to take away a little of the music's lifelike sound and reduce its excitement factor. I've not yet spent time with AG’s DSP because I don't have measuring equipment, but I will when I'm totally happy with their placement. Meanwhile I usually switch off Dirac Live for the reasons given despite the much flatter bass response.

I’m not trying to be confrontational but just to suggest there’s more than one way to skin a cat (sorry Chops) and in this day and age - perhaps a more sophisticated and less costly way than adding more speaker boxes to your listening room. Peter

PS Although we are slightly off-topic, I suspect the OP may be interested in this discussion as it could influence his speaker choice.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Chops and Octopus

Whilst I certainly agree many of your points, I believe that a carefully set up and DSP-tuned full-range pair of speakers is both more cost-effective and less aesthetically jarring than smaller speakers plus a couple of subs.



"Audiophiles would prefer a speaker that doesn't need subs for sublime sound".


Not wanting to promote Avantgarde speakers, but they do offer ample bass from twin 12" drivers per side and include a DSP that allow you to flatten out the peaks and nulls (up to about 150Hz) to suit your room's acoustic difficulties without separate subs. Third party DSP's are designed to do much the same, though my own experience with the 4 systems I've tried at home is not convincing. Yes they flatten out these peaks and nulls, but they also tend to take away a little of the music's lifelike sound and reduce its excitement factor. I've not yet spent time with AG’s DSP because I don't have measuring equipment, but I will when I'm totally happy with their placement. Meanwhile I usually switch off Dirac Live for the reasons given despite the much flatter bass response.

I’m not trying to be confrontational but just to suggest there’s more than one way to skin a cat (sorry Chops) and in this day and age - perhaps a more sophisticated and less costly way than adding more speaker boxes to your listening room. Peter

PS Although we are slightly off-topic, I suspect the OP may be interested in this discussion as it could influence his speaker choice.

Again, it does not matter what the loudspeaker is or its capabilities, and DSP simply can not rectify nulls in a room.

I'm going to drop the whole loudspeaker part of this post because I've already covered that to great detail.

However, DSP is not the answer either. It can not and will not solve physical issues with the room. The only thing DSP can do is correct for peaks in the room, that's it. No matter how much DSP, EQ, amplifier power you throw at it, these things will NOT solve the issues of nulls in a room. The only things that can be done to solve nulls is loudspeaker placement, subwoofer placement, and listening position. Not much else is going to solve null issues for you, no matter how much tech you throw at it.

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

I’m an old school purist. No DSP for me.

Speakers appropriate for size of the room, some acoustic panels to tame early reflections from walls, floor and ceiling if appropriate and I’m good to go. If bass needs augmenting, a quality sub or better yet a pair will be added. It has worked well for me in the past. I’ve tried DSP once and have not found the result satisfying. Granted I have not played with much DSP in my systems but so far have never had the need to. I’ve played a lot with DSP in headphones to always turn it off in the end. If it works for you, great.

Likewise here. DSP is great for home theater where you're dealing with timing, phase, etc, etc with a bunch of speakers scattered all over the room. But for 2-ch audio, nope.

Treating room acoustics by physical means is the only way to go. You keep dynamics, impact, detail, energy, delicacy, overall musicality of your system intact when dealing with room acoustics by physical means. When you start to mess around with DSP, you can easily and quickly take things too far and make the sound worse. And when spending hours and days and weeks messing around with DSP, in the end, you end up taking the life and breathe of the sound out of the system. Like the system is being held back.

IMO, subs are not so much about the bass in reproduced music. They are about reproducing the recorded space in the music.

Said another way - It's not about the bass, it's about the space - at least 90% of the time.

When set up correctly, of course.

Originally Posted by nicoff

I use DSP on 2-channel. The capabilities of today's DSP are quite a lot better than what was possible just a few years ago. If done correctly, DSP can do wonders to the sound without wasting money on gadgets and gizmos. Heck, even todays most advanced concert halls use DSP!

I'm well aware of the capabilities of todays DSP units. I have an extremely capable and flexible dbx DriveRack Venu 360 that I used for a while, mainly for when I completely bypassed the passive crossovers in my SL3's. Used for crossover, gain, phase, time alignment and just a touch of EQ (for the drivers, not the room), it was great. Start getting into room correction and that's where it goes down hill.

Yes, concert halls use DSP, not for correcting peaks and nulls as they have little issue with room modes considering the enormity of the space involved in such a venue. They mainly use DSP for the unity of multiple loudspeakers in multiple locations and doing minor EQ most likely for a few small peaks here and there, mainly peaks of the loudspeakers used, not caused by the venue.

Again, there's no possible way for DSP to resolve issues of acoustic nulls in a traditional residential room. Short of actually changing the size of the room, moving loudspeakers, subwoofers and listening position, the only other option you have is treating the room acoustically with absorbers, traps, diffusers, etc, etc. Even then, those do not do a whole lot for nulls, but help.

Originally Posted by chops

I'm well aware of the capabilities of todays DSP units. I have an extremely capable and flexible dbx DriveRack Venu 360 that I used for a while, mainly for when I completely bypassed the passive crossovers in my SL3's. Used for crossover, gain, phase, time alignment and just a touch of EQ (for the drivers, not the room), it was great. Start getting into room correction and that's where it goes down hill.

Yes, concert halls use DSP, not for correcting peaks and nulls as they have little issue with room modes considering the enormity of the space involved in such a venue. They mainly use DSP for the unity of multiple loudspeakers in multiple locations and doing minor EQ most likely for a few small peaks here and there, mainly peaks of the loudspeakers used, not caused by the venue.

Again, there's no possible way for DSP to resolve issues of acoustic nulls in a traditional residential room. Short of actually changing the size of the room, moving loudspeakers, subwoofers and listening position, the only other option you have is treating the room acoustically with absorbers, traps, diffusers, etc, etc. Even then, those do not do a whole lot for nulls, but help.

Whenever I have encountered DSP on RoomPlay voicing sessions, it had always been used as a band-aid.

When the need for that band-aid was dispensed with, I am not aware of ANY clients who ever used it again. None, not ever.

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

Whenever I have encountered DSP on RoomPlay voicing sessions, it had always been used as a band-aid.

When the need for that band-aid was dispensed with, I am not aware of ANY clients who ever used it again. None, not ever.

Jim - I'm planning on using Dirac DSP graphical results solely to prompt changes in Avantgarde's XD software settings. I don't know whether you still encounter the newer AGs, but I'd be interested in your opinion of this XD software. As far as I can tell, it's benign to the sound quality (unlike Anthem, RoomPerfect, Dirac Live, etc) and just allows accurate tuning of the highly tuneable AG speakers without causing the dulling of music that other systems suffer from. Thanks. Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Jim - I'm planning on using Dirac DSP graphical results solely to prompt changes in Avantgarde's XD software settings. I don't know whether you still encounter the newer AGs, but I'd be interested in your opinion of this XD software. As far as I can tell, it's benign to the sound quality (unlike Anthem, RoomPerfect, Dirac Live, etc) and just allows accurate tuning of the highly tuneable AG speakers without causing the dulling of music that other systems suffer from. Thanks. Peter

On a couple of installations where the best set-up couldn't work because of the lifestyle in that room, I thought it did help. My comment was vs. the best set-up, not one that is compromised and cannot be addressed properly. I referred to those applications as band-aids.

As I probably say too much, there's two kinds of Harmony: Musical & Domestic. If the Domestic is not addressed, the Musical is often compromised in a serious manner. IMO...

OP, Dynaudio has been discounting the C60 for over a year now, if you can find a pair the dual 9'' woofers should play nicely in that space.

Originally Posted by Phishphan

Subs are a fantastic addition for music. Most speakers on the market won't ever provide the bass weight of standalone subs.


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i know loads of folks who use subs very effectively with standmounts

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

Whenever I have encountered DSP on RoomPlay voicing sessions, it had always been used as a band-aid.

When the need for that band-aid was dispensed with, I am not aware of ANY clients who ever used it again. None, not ever.

Room correction is useful in HT, especially in a room that is imperfect.

I'd never use it for 2 channel. Speaker placement just takes time, research, patience.. and more time. Eventually it'll come together


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Originally Posted by chops

Not that any of us expect a reply since you only posted twice on the same day a month ago, but...

Encore - Tekton Design | Improve your hearing

They're on sale right now for $7k shipped to your door.

the Tekton seem to offer big bang for the buck - I like the look as well.