Thread: Sound opinions: Devore O/96 compared to Zu Druid V/Submission

Hi Bongo! Welcome!


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Thanks Mike!

I think if you have Shindo, Devore O/96's are a natural choice. Seems to be a popular pairing.


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I like the idea of the O/96's, but as much as I want to like them, I don't think I've ever heard an optimal setup. Likewise with Zu.

For Shindo amps, the ideal is 16 ohm speakers, although many use speakers with lower impedances with some success, including the smaller Devore speakers. The Shindo distributor highly recommends higher ohm speakers with my gear, so I'm looking at these speakers - Devore at 10 ohm and Druid V at 16 ohm. The distributor and the dealer also suggest Shindo and the new line of Audtitorium 23 speakers. They are much more expensive, and I'm intrigued and am also considering them, but that topic is for another thread!

First, what Shindo amp/preamp do you have?

Second, have you ever given any thought to Tannoy? Seems to be a popular pairing here.


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Originally Posted by Bongo

I like the idea of the O/96's, but as much as I want to like them, I don't think I've ever heard an optimal setup. Likewise with Zu.

For Shindo amps, the ideal is 16 ohm speakers, although many use speakers with lower impedances with some success, including the smaller Devore speakers. The Shindo distributor highly recommends higher ohm speakers with my gear, so I'm looking at these speakers - Devore at 10 ohm and Druid V at 16 ohm. The distributor and the dealer also suggest Shindo and the new line of Audtitorium 23 speakers. They are much more expensive, and I'm intrigued and am also considering them, but that topic is for another thread!

With lists of your gear .....Nothing to think about ....O/96 ! . I've been told Mr John DeVore voiced his O/96 with your amp.

Your amp is rated as 20W in class A（8Ω output）.

BTW Welcome to AS

Originally Posted by Mike

First, what Shindo amp/preamp do you have?

Second, have you ever given any thought to Tannoy? Seems to be a popular pairing here.


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I did think about Tannoy for a long time - it seemed to make sense. Several individuals have commented on various forums, including the Shindo distributor, that, except possibly for the Westminster, Tannoys like a bit more juice than my Haut Brion provides. The Haut is designed for 16 ohm speakers. I know Paul has the Westminsters and would probably disagree! I don't have room for them in my listening room, but I'd love to hear how they sound.

Paul and Bruce, thanks for the comments. I think of the O/96 as being more refined and it also has a broader response range than the Druid V. I must admit that I left the Zu room pretty quickly in 2012. I think that they were playing some pretty compressed music or maybe a bad quality recording. I only stayed for part of a song, but it was not good.

I spent much more time in the Devore room and heard the 96's and 93's. Both were nice, but there were other rooms I liked the sound of more, as I recall, including ones that showcased Teresonic, Vaughn, Living Voice OBX, and DC10 Audio. Don't get me started about the Cessaro's in the un-obtainium, I mean, High Water Sound room. I just recall all of those rooms had a more open, detailed, and vibrant sound.

I had a short audition of the O/96's at Arizona HiFi with Line Magnetic amps, and they were much better. Compared to my Altecs, they came across as rather polite. I mentioned this to Glen, the dealer, who assured me that they could bite too. I trust his judgement, so mine remains suspended. My first Shindo dealer auditioned for me his Monbrison, Cortese, Devore Silverback kit, and it had a very refined high end and midrange enveloped in authoritative and tight bass and an enveloping soundstage - fantastic. I imagine the O/96 is similar in many ways.

I had all but dismissed the idea of Zu's, but after reading Srajan's review of the Druid V / Submission combo on 6 Moons, it turned my attention to them as an even higher impedance alternative to the O/96's. He described them as smoother and with a more refined midrange and upper range than previous Druids. I think he owned Devore 8's and gave them a great review, but I can't infer a comparison between the Devore and Zu sound. He went gaga over the Submission and now uses it with some German Physiks speakers. I also read a favorable review of the Druid V on Positive Feedback. I'm still intrigued to know more about them. Zu does have a 60 day return policy, but I'm hoping to get more information from other individuals before I pull that trigger.

Originally Posted by Bongo

I did think about Tannoy for a long time - it seemed to make sense. Several individuals have commented on various forums, including the Shindo distributor, that, except possibly for the Westminster, Tannoys like a bit more juice than my Haut Brion provides. The Haut is designed for 16 ohm speakers. I know Paul has the Westminsters and would probably disagree! I don't have room for them in my listening room, but I'd love to hear how they sound.

Bongo. One simple question. Ask them if they ever heard them together ( Westminster GR with Shindo 20 watts amp ) ?

I do have both speakers ( DeVore O/96 and Westies ) You can tell which sitting in my main room is... It's not matter of if I agree or not

I hear you! I bet the combo is great. The only thing that counts them out for me is their size. My listening room isn't small, but its configuration won't accommodate them. Even if it did, my wife who approves of a new speaker purchase, has expressed some disapproval of the aesthetic of the Westminsters!

I love the look and the wood - its like a big antique wardrobe. Its unexpected, and given its performance, such a sleeper, as speakers go. A speaker as "Ferrari" is impressive, but isn't really my thing.

Someday, I hope to hear them.

Bongo, I'd go with the 0/96 if you are only considering these two. I have a friend running the Giscours and GM 70's. He moved from Zu to the 0/96 and is in heaven. I'm sorry I don't know which Zu model he had if it's important, but I can find out.

You've got a great system!

Thanks Bill! Actually, I have considered other speakers, but there aren't many sub $20k speakers with high enough impedance to get the most out of my amplifiers.

I've know the specs and reviews for Teresonics, Vaughns, Tannoy Canterbury, DC 10, Bastanis, Living Voice, WLM, and Horning. I've heard the O/96s, Teresonics, Vaughns, Hornings, and Living Voice at RMAF, and liked them all a lot. However, only Devore, Vaughn, and Teresonic have high impedance speakers. Of those, Devore and Vaughn are probably best for my musical tastes, which includes rock (many variants), jazz, acoustic, Americana, bluegrass, and some classical. Vaughns are difficult to audition though.

There is another consideration. My listening room is adobe- plaster over solid Mud bricks - with cement floors and wood viga (beam) ceilings. The north side has large sliding glass doors and windows along which is the passage between two large openings to the two neighboring rooms. The west, south, and east walls are adobe - kind of U shaped. The "U" has amazing reinforcement of lower frequencies. In fact, with speakers placed against any of the adobe walls, there are always a few nasty base nodes that are difficult to resolve, no matter how far away from the front wall.

I've spoke with Glen at Arizona HiFi about this and he agreed that the O/96's could be challenging to tame. That was disappointing. He suggested that I take my rear ported bedroom speakers and amp, and test different positioning, namely using the glass as the front wall with the speakers about 5 feet out. It worked! It suggested that I'll be able to control the O/96 bass - they were still in the running!

We also discussed the Shindo 604 and Petite Latour. The down ported designs would probably work, not to mention a front ported version, which can be ordered on the PL's. He also got Jonathan Halpern's input, who wanted me to consider the new Auditorium 23 Cinema Hommage or 22a. These were priced in the range of Petite Latour / 604 FC and Latour FC, respectively. However, I've set a budget limit that maxes out at the AlNiCo versions of the Shindo speakers.

I see you have Petite Latours! Are they FC or AlNiCo? I'd love to hear your impressions. Have you used other speakers with your Shindo rig? If so, I'd be interested in your comparisons. If you want, feel free to PM. I don't want to steer the topic off course any more than I have already.

I've asked another PL owner from Santa Fe (one hour north) who owns a full Shindo setup if he'd be open to sharing a listening session with me. Hopefully, he will be, since other auditioning alternatives involve more travel.

But back to the topic at hand, it sounds like the O/96 is the consensus choice thus far.

Welcome to the forum Jay! Thank you for joining.

Thanks for the suggestion Jay! I've only read good things about them. I'm definitely keeping the Line Magnetic and Auditorium 23 speakers in mind. Of course, all of the Auditorium 23 speakers use LM drivers now, but the price point is on another level. I haven't ruled out any options yet, and there is no reason to leapfrog the O/96 price point yet. Many of these speakers involve significant travel to audition and, finances permitting, I tend to let my ears be my guide. It may take a while to make a decision!

Jay, I had Altec 14's with upgraded Auricap capacitors. They sounded wonderful, if not somewhat rolled off on the high frequencies. Augmented with a sub, the horns were immediate and open. On the other hand, I like cone speakers. My Regas sound great with my Almarro amp. I'd describe them as more intimate, but very detailed.

How would you contrast the sound of your Altecs (16ohm, right?) with your LM speakers?

Bongo, PM sent...


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Originally Posted by Loop4fun

Bongo, PM sent...


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Bill,
Your keyboard must be burning! I just sent a reply.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Jay Bass

Let me first say, I love the Valencias. Especially with the Jabo Labs autoformer crossovers took them to a whole different level than the stock crossover. Much more coherent. No more shrillness. More balanced sounding. Really unbelievable with Shindo gear.
That being said, whenever I swap the Line Magnetic 755i's back in the system, they simply make the Valencias sound broken. Especially with the Haut Brions. Sonically, they are more transparent, more coherent (no surprise), faster, with better treble and a ridiculous midrange. The bass was the biggest surprise. Truly great. In this regard, I think the Haut Brion with its slightly bumped up mid-bass is truly synergistic with the Line Magnetics. And they can play anything, not just solo guitar or vocal music. The only thing the Valencias do better is convey the weight of the music.
The Line Magnetics are magical at times, making you believe there is nothing in hetween you and the music. They make all music sound correct and make sense. The Altecs are loud, clear and awesome and the best budget match for Shindo gear in my opinion, but they are not magic.

Jay - that's a great comparison. Thanks! I get what you mean and I agree about the Altecs. Altecs of that design, including my 14's, have impact, but they lack the high end extension of more modern designs, even my inexpensive Rega's, and they need help with lower frequencies. Of course, my woofer surrounds have probably been in some state of degradation since I purchased them, so I probably never heard their best.

I may need to figure out a way to give the LM's a listen. I know that Chris "Cucumber Jones" got the Auditorium 23 Hommage 755's and he loves them. I'm not sure what the differences between the LM and the A23 speakers, aside from cabinet design. Do you know?

I'm jamming to Nick Waterhouse on Tidal over my cheap amp and speakers, and it sounds fantastic for mellow night listening. Do I need anything more? (rhetorical question) I love that there is a group of interesting like-minded guys to discuss these things with!

I've heard both, quite extensively- and own Zus fwiw. I would recommend the Definition over the Druid/Sub combo unless you are a super tone junkie- the Def has better sound stage. Compared to the O96, the Zus are much more dynamic with more natural tone and better bass without the crossover (I feel the sealed bass is superior to the very warm bass of the O96). Both have nice, natural top ends unlike many speakers. The Devores are probably a more intimate speaker if that makes sense. Zus also integrate better into a room since they aren't wide baffle, aren't ported, and have active bass. Considering the Definition is actually cheaper than the O/96...

That said, I'm auditioning the Gibbon X in a few weeks which I expect to be better as I prefer that design to the Orangutan series.

Re: Zu speakers, any older Essence (just a bad speaker imo), Presence, or Druid IV review is quite different from Druid V/Definition IV- they really escalated there sound a few years back.

Originally Posted by KeithR

I've heard both, quite extensively- and own Zus fwiw. I would recommend the Definition over the Druid/Sub combo unless you are a super tone junkie- the Def has better sound stage. Compared to the O96, the Zus are much more dynamic with more natural tone and better bass without the crossover (I feel the sealed bass is superior to the very warm bass of the O96). Both have nice, natural top ends unlike many speakers. The Devores are probably a more intimate speaker if that makes sense. Zus also integrate better into a room since they aren't wide baffle, aren't ported, and have active bass. Considering the Definition is actually cheaper than the O/96...

That said, I'm auditioning the Gibbon X in a few weeks which I expect to be better as I prefer that design to the Orangutan series.

Re: Zu speakers, any older Essence (just a bad speaker imo), Presence, or Druid IV review is quite different from Druid V/Definition IV- they really escalated there sound a few years back.

That is very helpful. I have heard that the O/96's wider baffle can be more directional and the ported enclosure produces a bit softer (is that the right word?), though prodigious, and more difficult to tame bass. I've had mostly narrow baffle speakers, and I agree that the Zu's probably soundstage better and are likely the more adaptable to different rooms, be it the Definitions or the Druids. I'm not sure how important soundstage is to me. I really like to be enveloped by music, where the higher registers and midranges are couched in an enveloping sea of bass, even if the base is acoustic. My Altecs would do that wonderfully, but only with a sub to create the larger soundstage. I don't really care for holographic effects (the illusion of placement of musicians), but I'm sure that my current speakers and the Zu's do that better than the O/96's. If I wanted that and had different amps, I'd probably get the Silverbacks, which are fantastic at pretty much everything.

Of course, the thing that will elude me without a demo of the Zu's, is the sound. I'm intrigued that you believe the Zu's to have a more natural tone. Could you elaborate on that?

I'll look for your review of the Gibbon X's! Though they aren't the best match for me, I love the Silverbacks, and the X's use the tweeter and a similar woofer configuration. I bet they sound sweet.

Originally Posted by vortrex

You mentioned you liked the dc10audio speakers, and you are local to them, have you gone for more of an audition? I have the Briton II"s with my Shindo gear and it is amazing. They're in a small room and work very well.

I live an hour south of Santa Fe, where DC10 is located. I see that the Britons and the Kabuki Ohaku are their bigger speakers with 8 ohm impedance. I think that they are working on building a showroom, but even if it isn't open, I'll request an listen. Thanks!

What kind of amps do you use with the Britons?

edit -

I've scheduled a demo with Dave to hear some Berlins he has in stock. He's sold out of everything else (!) and is in production to prepare for the Munich High End show.

Originally Posted by Bongo

That is very helpful. I have heard that the O/96's wider baffle can be more directional and the ported enclosure produces a bit softer (is that the right word?), though prodigious, and more difficult to tame bass. I've had mostly narrow baffle speakers, and I agree that the Zu's probably soundstage better and are likely the more adaptable to different rooms, be it the Definitions or the Druids. I'm not sure how important soundstage is to me. I really like to be enveloped by music, where the higher registers and midranges are couched in an enveloping sea of bass, even if the base is acoustic. My Altecs would do that wonderfully, but only with a sub to create the larger soundstage. I don't really care for holographic effects (the illusion of placement of musicians), but I'm sure that my current speakers and the Zu's do that better than the O/96's. If I wanted that and had different amps, I'd probably get the Silverbacks, which are fantastic at pretty much everything.

Of course, the thing that will elude me without a demo of the Zu's, is the sound. I'm intrigued that you believe the Zu's to have a more natural tone. Could you elaborate on that?

I think another way to put it is Zus are a rock n roll, more in your face type speaker (lack of xover presumably the reason), whereas I felt the O 96s were more suitable for jazz and intimacy. The Os were a bit too warm for me, but zero fatigue. I'd say both speakers are better than 99% of what's out there. Ideally you could order a pair of Zus and have a Devore demo at the same time, in your own room on your amps. btw, if you really value tone over soundstage, go for the Druids. I think they would mate perfectly with the HB. The Defs definitely give up some tone due to the multiple FRDs. The Gibbon X is supposed to be a more modern, incisive sound which I feel I will like more. I'm off to Pitch Perfect Audio tomorrow, so may get to hear the A23 Hommage speakers- will see.

I tried SET and PP tubes (and a zillion other amps), but actually run DarTZeel now. Funny how things work out.

Let us know what you think of the A23 755a.

Originally Posted by KeithR

I think another way to put it is Zus are a rock n roll, more in your face type speaker (lack of xover presumably the reason), whereas I felt the O 96s were more suitable for jazz and intimacy. The Os were a bit too warm for me, but zero fatigue. I'd say both speakers are better than 99% of what's out there. Ideally you could order a pair of Zus and have a Devore demo at the same time, in your own room on your amps. btw, if you really value tone over soundstage, go for the Druids. I think they would mate perfectly with the HB. The Defs definitely give up some tone due to the multiple FRDs. The Gibbon X is supposed to be a more modern, incisive sound which I feel I will like more. I'm off to Pitch Perfect Audio tomorrow, so may get to hear the A23 Hommage speakers- will see.

I tried SET and PP tubes (and a zillion other amps), but actually run DarTZeel now. Funny how things work out.

SO how was your Visit to see Matt?

Sorry Cucumber, with Awards weekend I didn't end up making the trek over. Another Greenhaus night in a few weeks though. Matt's place is so much fun...and no dealer has a better bar

Originally Posted by Balazs

Hi Bongo,
may I ask you after all those years and many of your listening experiences, how do you like your actual Shindo 604 and why did you decide for them, and against O96, Zu, A23 755, etc.

I am actually looking for speakers for my Giscours / Cortese, all of the above mentioned are in race, but the german Suesskind Puls as well, maybe not so well known in the US and Canada.

Please report about your experiences during your search and now long time experience with the Shindo 604 at home.

Thanks very much,
Balazs

Hi Balazs,
I’ve had the 604‘s for a few years now. I actually ordered without the chance to audition first, based on a few reviews, the recommendations from users of this and another forum, and help from my dealer. I couldn’t be happier with them. They took about a year to break in, and until they did, they sounded muffled (boy did I worry I’d made a mistake).

They are perfectly matched (impedance, etc.) to Shindo electronics and there is something just very right about that setup. And particular, they just seem to be able to create a vibrant sensation of either a performance happening in the room, or of being at a performance venue. This sensation seems to depend mostly on the size of the listening room, with the smaller room bringing out the former had a larger room bringing out the latter. There’s just something enchanting about the combination of the large resonant hollow cabinet and horn speakers that create such a dynamic, enveloping, but textural and tonal experience.

I’ve never heard the A23 speakers, so can’t comment. My dealer suggested that I consider the Hommage Cinemas when I was about to place the order for the 604’s, but they were too expensive.

At a dealer, I listened to Devore Silverbacks with a Cortese / Monbrison setup as my first Shindo experience. I was very impressed with how well they played with such a low watt amplifier. Big enveloping sound and sweet high-end. Very good. I could sense that the low-frequency was a little loosey-goosey, which would be expected from such a matching.

I later heard both the O93 and O96 with line magnetic amplification at an audio show. Both were very nice, but for some reason, in those
hotel rooms, the 093 matched the room better. I really liked them.

I heard the 096 in a dealer with all Shindo amplification, and thought it sounded quite good. However, it was a small demonstration room, and I remember thinking that the speakers sounded smaller than expected. They didn’t quite groove as much as I’d heard they would and they didn’t have the chance to inhabit (fill) the space with ambient effect or texture. Considering how important room dynamics are, and the fact that everyone who hears them loves them, I think the audition room was probably working against them. Something tells me that they would sound even better than the silverbacks, given the right room. The rear ports where the main reason I didn’t order them, because I have solid walls and floors, and I was worried that the low-frequency reinforcement would overwhelm whatever space they were in.

I’ve read lots of great things about Zu speakers, but I’ve only heard them at shows, and I was never impressed enough to stick around for very long. They just seemed to have, and this is just my opinion, a rather harsh high frequency response and a bit of a flat (wall of sound) presentation. I remember thinking they just sounded a little like old Cerwin Vega speakers. Now, I’ve read all the reviews on these, especially the Druids, and I bet they are incredible with the right amps in the right room. Their high sensitivity are also are a good match for low wattage amplification. The last time I heard Zu speakers was in 2013.

One thing that impresses me about the 604’s, is that they are fairly forgiving of the room dynamics. They sound very nice in a 20 x 20’ billiard room with 10 foot ceilings. However, they sound even better with room to breathe in our main living room/kitchen, which is about 25‘ x 45. The 604’s also have a lot of integrity, and by that I mean they are very handsome and capable, but also humble and understated. They are impeccably built to perform a function without superfluous design. I think the Japanese excel at this type of thing, striking a lovely balance between function and form. I guess some people get audio gear because it seems impressive, but I feel like Shindo gear, and this is going to sound a little weird, are more like living beings. I’m actually fond of them. Excellent hand made things are special, regardless of cost. I feel exactly the same way about my little $800 Almarro amp.

So, that’s my experience. Have fun thinking about and hopefully getting the speakers you want!