Kii Audio - Three

Yup, the Goldmund folks said it took them 30 mins to set up in Vegas last time. A quick email sent back home with the room dimensions and ast download of the computed parameters to the digital hub and they were off to the bar to chill out and enjoy Vegas…other people were up all night twiddling and still took 2 days or more to get their room sounding decent.

Having said all this, I still think passive treatments should be the first priority at home and wife permitting. Drc IMHO is then the second port of call.
 
I heard the LS-1 at Munich this year and they were okay until I heard them on my dem disc - I would say medium to average for the show - no more, no less. Soundstage was flat, dynamics were ok, timbre was below average, voices were congested and not much delineation between instruments in space.
Unfortunately I couldnt make Munich this year, I believe Grimm were alternating between a two and five channel system?
I am going to experiment with multi channel here when the Kii's arrive.
The Illusonic IAP processor I have allows me to connect up to eight loudspeakers, and the Illusonic immersive processor can up mix ordinary two channel into m/c .
The three channel Illusonic demonstration at Munich before last was hugely impressive.
Keith.
 
Having said all this, I still think passive treatments should be the first priority at home and wife permitting. Drc IMHO is then the second port of call.
First thing is to acoustically measure your room and discover the specific issues, if low bass is a problem it is extremely difficult to fix passively.
I ended up with tuned Modex panels here, which have really helped, but the EQ correction that Christof ( Illusonic) created has been perhaps the single largest improvement in sound quality I have experienced .
Keith.
 
Unfortunately I couldnt make Munich this year, I believe Grimm were alternating between a two and five channel system?
I am going to experiment with multi channel here when the Kii's arrive.
The Illusonic IAP processor I have allows me to connect up to eight loudspeakers, and the Illusonic immersive processor can up mix ordinary two channel into m/c .
The three channel Illusonic demonstration at Munich before last was hugely impressive.
Keith.

Yes. I only sat in on the 2 channel dem so they hung a cloth over the centre channel to not distract the eye as it were. The illusonic does sound very cool especially the up mixing to mch. Can you run analogue sources into it and retain the signature before the upmix or do you have to feed a digital source?
 
First thing is to acoustically measure your room and discover the specific issues, if low bass is a problem it is extremely difficult to fix passively.
I ended up with tuned Modex panels here, which have really helped, but the EQ correction that Christof ( Illusonic) created has been perhaps the single largest improvement in sound quality I have experienced .
Keith.

Agree on the measurement point. That was my first point of call although I ought to invest in a better mic than my behringer condenser. Your room sounds very problematic Keith - what kind of wild bass issues were you having before? I suffered from a suck out at 50hz which is incurable drc or not - you can whack a load of gain at that frequency and potentially fry your drivers so not clever (especially with 2kw of Krell muscle on tap). Other than that I had a 3db boost at 30hz that I enjoy and other than that the normal type of fluctuations that most rooms seem to have that was smoothed out somewhat with bass trapping although not as flat as when Acourate is on.
 
Grimm used ,I believe a modified OPPO, I am going to experiment with the Illusonic, which is a preamp, ADC,DAC, sophisticated EQ,( and tone controls) phono stage and you can create your own DSP crossovers with it if you like.
It also has Illusonics Immersive algorithm which separates direct ,reflected and ambient sounds , with enough channels you can recreate the original venues acoustic .
Keith.
 
Agree on the measurement point. That was my first point of call although I ought to invest in a better mic than my behringer condenser. Your room sounds very problematic Keith - what kind of wild bass issues were you having before? I suffered from a suck out at 50hz which is incurable drc or not - you can whack a load of gain at that frequency and potentially fry your drivers so not clever (especially with 2kw of Krell muscle on tap). Other than that I had a 3db boost at 30hz that I enjoy and other than that the normal type of fluctuations that most rooms seem to have that was smoothed out somewhat with bass trapping although not as flat as when Acourate is on.
I suffer from a 24dB peak at 28Hz ,and multiples thereof, standing waves based on the room's dimensions, I have experimented with everything, initially and rather naively just covering the room in acoustic foam, then digital room correction in various iterations, Trinnov, Accurate, Dirac, ending up with a mixture of passive , RPG tuned Modex panels and EQ.
With the Illusonic you make the measurements with the Illusonic software and then send the files to Christof, he then creates a correction.
You can then of course play with that correctional much as you like ,simply creating a modified file and A/Bing against the original.
There are also ,depth, immersion and brilliance parameters, you can adjust the separation of the sound from the loudspeakers, increasing the ambient sound ,all on the fly.
It is a superb bit of kit,
Keith.
 
I suffer from a 24dB peak at 28Hz ,and multiples thereof, standing waves based on the room's dimensions, I have experimented with everything, initially and rather naively just covering the room in acoustic foam, then digital room correction in various iterations, Trinnov, Accurate, Dirac, ending up with a mixture of passive , RPG tuned Modex panels and EQ.
With the Illusonic you make the measurements with the Illusonic software and then send the files to Christof, he then creates a correction.
You can then of course play with that correctional much as you like ,simply creating a modified file and A/Bing against the original.
There are also ,depth, immersion and brilliance parameters, you can adjust the separation of the sound from the loudspeakers, increasing the ambient sound ,all on the fly.
It is a superb bit of kit,
Keith.

How much is this device? The 8 channel one that is.
 
$20K for the 16channel…less for the 8...

I will ask him next week or so, as its been a while since we chatted and he may have interesting updates.
 
The Illusonic IAP8 is CHF 15k inc everything, so what £9k ish, that is for preamp, phono ,dac,ADC ,EQ, DSP crossovers, all the control and calibration software and a professional acoustician from Illusonic to create your EQ, as many times as you wish.
Keith.
 
Geithain also claim Cardiod bass, but when I measured a pair here, they didn't appear to be very effective, but I would never claim my measurements are definitive.
I look forward to having the Kii's here, delivery should be end of next month.
Keith.
Yes, Geithains look interesting, unfortunately none here for me to hear. How are you measuring, with what type of signal?
1st order gradients are a bit trickier to measure in non free field conditions, steady state signals and amplitude measurements will give very limited info. Much preferred would be a modulated signal, as shown here
I personally prefer variable shaped radiation capability, but have found that even fixed first order gradients are usually perceptually better in most rooms and require less or even no so called treatments. IOW, inject 6db less power into the room to begin with, rather than 6db more and then have to absorb a bunch of it.

cheers,

AJ
 
Having said all this, I still think passive treatments should be the first priority at home and wife permitting. Drc IMHO is then the second port of call.
Goldmund's take:

In audio more than any other domain, time is of the essence. A proper time alignment is crucial in what we call the Recognition Factor, which is the ability of our brain to recognize a sound as real (high recognition factor) vs. reproduced (low recognition factor).
The time alignment technology used in Proteus is called the Leonardo Time Correction. In a system that does not use time correction the listener’s brain concentrates on reconstructing the time alignment of a sound that it perceives as un-natural (time distortion does not exist in nature).
In a system that includes a Leonardo configuration, this action is performed by the audio system itself, leaving the brain focus on the music itself and on the true emotion that a completely natural sound brings to each passionate music listener.
A Leonardo configuration is a digital file used by the Goldmund processor. The file’s parameters are calculated based on the speaker’s technical specifications. All recent Goldmund speakers function with Leonardo configurations as part of the Proteus technology.

E. The Proteus Speaker Modeling Software: The Total Correction
During the last 10 years, one of Goldmund’s greatest achievements has been the creation of Proteus, its Mathematical Modeling Software capable not only of designing perfect speakers out of any enclosure shape but also of integrating the results in a room, even for multi-channel. Some traditional audiophile speakers may be assembled with the best drivers in the best enclosure, without sounding lifelike at all. Most of the problems are with the crossover and the low frequency tuning. If properly designed, the crossover is supposed to avoid major amplitude accidents in the speaker frequency response. Some may even achieve a decent phase response with acrobatic passive crossover design (detrimental to the “Acoustical Grounding” anyhow as we have seen before). But the major distortion created by the crossover remains the time distortion and this cannot be corrected in a passive crossover. It requires working in the digital domain, with access to mathematical modeling software. Thanks to Proteus, and thanks to the digital DSP crossover used in all the Goldmund Standalone Speakers, all forms of distortion can be systematically eliminated. Using “Leonardo”, a method developed especially by Goldmund, the Time distortion can be neutralized. But also, both amplitude and phase response accidents of the global speaker, usually due to its shape, its port tuning etc... can be corrected with an extreme precision.
The Result: For the first time, a speaker totally corrected in amplitude, phase and time can be produced. The audible effect is staggering of vividness, and the recognition factor highly improved (this factor concerns the ability of the brain to recognize a sound as real vs. reproduced. It is highly influenced by the alignment of frequencies that, in nature, reach your ear at the same time but that are not properly aligned when any sound is reproduced). In addition, thanks to Proteus, more elaborate shape or different construction can be introduced, the final result being maintained unchanged.
F. Additional Possibilities: The Tuning Of The Room
Tuning the acoustic response of a room is a necessity in many home installations. Often installed in a living room, the system acoustics are far from perfect. Achieving some corrections with acoustic materials or accessories remains possible but then forget the “Wife Acceptance”. With the Goldmund Standalone Speaker, an internal powerful DSP circuit is integrated in the speaker, providing many possibilities of correction that can be calculated by Proteus.
The Result: A perfect system in a perfect room was something requesting extreme acoustical treatment and remaining imperfect. By using Proteus and a Goldmund Standalone Speaker, it is now possible to install it without major constraints for your décor choices. Mixing hidden and visible speakers also provides the possibility to achieve good-looking multi-channel systems for film or concert in a living room.
 
Goldmund's take:

In audio more than any other domain, time is of the essence. A proper time alignment is crucial in what we call the Recognition Factor, which is the ability of our brain to recognize a sound as real (high recognition factor) vs. reproduced (low recognition factor).
The time alignment technology used in Proteus is called the Leonardo Time Correction. In a system that does not use time correction the listener’s brain concentrates on reconstructing the time alignment of a sound that it perceives as un-natural (time distortion does not exist in nature).
In a system that includes a Leonardo configuration, this action is performed by the audio system itself, leaving the brain focus on the music itself and on the true emotion that a completely natural sound brings to each passionate music listener.
A Leonardo configuration is a digital file used by the Goldmund processor. The file’s parameters are calculated based on the speaker’s technical specifications. All recent Goldmund speakers function with Leonardo configurations as part of the Proteus technology.

E. The Proteus Speaker Modeling Software: The Total Correction
During the last 10 years, one of Goldmund’s greatest achievements has been the creation of Proteus, its Mathematical Modeling Software capable not only of designing perfect speakers out of any enclosure shape but also of integrating the results in a room, even for multi-channel. Some traditional audiophile speakers may be assembled with the best drivers in the best enclosure, without sounding lifelike at all. Most of the problems are with the crossover and the low frequency tuning. If properly designed, the crossover is supposed to avoid major amplitude accidents in the speaker frequency response. Some may even achieve a decent phase response with acrobatic passive crossover design (detrimental to the “Acoustical Grounding” anyhow as we have seen before). But the major distortion created by the crossover remains the time distortion and this cannot be corrected in a passive crossover. It requires working in the digital domain, with access to mathematical modeling software. Thanks to Proteus, and thanks to the digital DSP crossover used in all the Goldmund Standalone Speakers, all forms of distortion can be systematically eliminated. Using “Leonardo”, a method developed especially by Goldmund, the Time distortion can be neutralized. But also, both amplitude and phase response accidents of the global speaker, usually due to its shape, its port tuning etc... can be corrected with an extreme precision.
The Result: For the first time, a speaker totally corrected in amplitude, phase and time can be produced. The audible effect is staggering of vividness, and the recognition factor highly improved (this factor concerns the ability of the brain to recognize a sound as real vs. reproduced. It is highly influenced by the alignment of frequencies that, in nature, reach your ear at the same time but that are not properly aligned when any sound is reproduced). In addition, thanks to Proteus, more elaborate shape or different construction can be introduced, the final result being maintained unchanged.
F. Additional Possibilities: The Tuning Of The Room
Tuning the acoustic response of a room is a necessity in many home installations. Often installed in a living room, the system acoustics are far from perfect. Achieving some corrections with acoustic materials or accessories remains possible but then forget the “Wife Acceptance”. With the Goldmund Standalone Speaker, an internal powerful DSP circuit is integrated in the speaker, providing many possibilities of correction that can be calculated by Proteus.
The Result: A perfect system in a perfect room was something requesting extreme acoustical treatment and remaining imperfect. By using Proteus and a Goldmund Standalone Speaker, it is now possible to install it without major constraints for your décor choices. Mixing hidden and visible speakers also provides the possibility to achieve good-looking multi-channel systems for film or concert in a living room.

Thanks Norman. Interesting read. I am aware that my Acourate software is capable of time alignment in addition to phase and amplitude - perhaps I need to revisit this. The only thing is that convolution can only be done with PCM as I understand which limits me to using the Lampi PCM engine. As you know, the beauty of Lampi is also the dsd ability. I can't think of any proper solutions other than I thought about creating a room corrected file for my PCM and then that upsampled to quad dsd on the fly to Lampi. Still not a fix for dsd only tracks though.
 
Huge amount of waffle, but it sounds like DSP crossovers, and some form of unspecified correction, perhaps you could ask them how they perform the correction.
Linn bought out something a, very pale watered down trial and error approach to placement, which did not require any acoustic measurement!
Keith.
 
yes Bill, my quandary too.

There is a guy at CA called blizzard--canada based--- who claims he is working on his own solution to create such a correction with up to dsd 256.

Active speaker system thread
 
Huge amount of waffle, but it sounds like DSP crossovers, and some form of unspecified correction, perhaps you could ask them how they perform the correction.
Linn bought out something a, very pale watered down trial and error approach to placement, which did not require any acoustic measurement!
Keith.
Dr Veronique Adam does not waffle. I know her about as well as Christof and they are both serious pros.
 
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