Thread: The ideal speaker?

Way too technical in my opinion. My ideal speaker should:
- have a good efficiency,
- have the dynamics of a horn loaded speaker,
- have the transparency of an electrostatic speaker,
- has the high-end extension of a B&W diamond tweeter but the liveliness of the good-old inverter Focal titanium dome,
- have a nice low end (not boomy),but I will use a sub no matter what and since I saw Alon Wolf having two in his Ultimate set-up in Munich I feel in good company
- are forgiving to less perfect recordings,
- have the looks of a Sonos Faber.

Most high-end combinations (including my own rigs) are failing in the forgiving part. Soundwise the Blumenhofer Classic 1743 probably comes closest of all the speakers I have tested. But miserably fail on the looks .....

Originally Posted by bernardl

I wonder whether it’s not better to manage the bad records with sound profiles ran on the DSP of the amp or music player.

It's no better/worse to do, what is effectively, sound power EQ at the front end or at speaker. Net result is you can certainly improve tonally (and somewhat, timbre) of recording, good or bad, to suit ones taste. However, with DSP at the speaker, you can do things impossible at the front end/DAC stage, like manipulate the actual polar radiation characteristics of the speaker and how it interacts with room, affecting just about everything, most importantly, the spatial rendering one is trying to achieve.
A great laymans explanation is here Acoustics vs Hearing the whole read is critical, to understand pg 36.
The net result is onhifi.com -- Features Archives
"Where's the Real Magazine?" As We See It, February 2001 | Stereophile.com
But as Atkinson points out

There was no doubt that I had experienced audio playback of considerably higher fidelity than I had ever experienced from a two-channel system. But did I want that experience in my own listening room? As always, it comes down to what you want a recording to do: reproduce the music you love in whatever fidelity is appropriate; or reproduce a very small amount of other people's music in as high a fidelity as possible.

Very few, if any, actually desire anything such.
Btw, as Joe I points out in another thread, there are already DACs on the market that offer some of what you mention, ability to tonally fix recordings made by literally near deaf engineers (actually tested by Dr Toole et al).

cheers,

AJ

Thankfully no such thing as the ideal speaker, otherwise we'd all have them and every other brand would be out of business..

In any event, the "ideal" speaker in your room may be quite different from the ones in my room. DSP or not, speakers need matching with the room and some types of speaker may perform very disappointly. In my own room, the very costly electrostatics I bought to replace old horns sounded worse than the old horns despite a small improvement following DSP adjustment - so they are for sale.

DSP in many respects should be considered as a last resort to resolve problems with a pooly chosen speaker. If you can find a good speaker that matches your room's accoustics without room correction, you'll be better off than a costlier speaker that isn't happy until its diet is changed. Peter

Which costly electrostatics are you selling?


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Originally Posted by Mike

Which costly electrostatics are you selling?

Martin Logan Expression 13A in high gloss black - pristine condition as effectively unused. All accessories inc PBK kit and original packaging. UK only

PS - Almst impossible to type posts on the forumusing Ineret Explorer. Lots o character go missing as his sentavce ilusrate.

Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Martin Logan Expression 13A in high gloss black - pristine condition as effectively unused. All accessories inc PBK kit and original packaging. UK only

PS - Almst impossible to type posts on the forumusing Ineret Explorer. Lots o character go missing as his sentavce ilusrate.

Peter

Ok. Not sure I would consider those “pricey”. They sell them at Best Buy here in America, along with toasters and refrigerators. Maybe in Europe, they jack up the price. Good speakers, but like all hybrid panels, even the MurAudio’s I had on long term loan, a compromise due to its hybrid nature.

I’d still take a pair of Quad 2912’s any day and live with their limitations. At least they’re pure sounding.

But glad you went with the AG XD’s. Great move, great speaker.


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Originally Posted by Hear Here

Martin Logan Expression 13A

That's not a DSP speaker. Thats a conventional speaker with an onboard DSP subwoofer. It has zero ability to change its polar pattern to highly forward direct radiation, like the horns you prefer, in your room.
That's a limitation of that type speaker. Agreed.

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by Mike

Ok. Not sure I would consider those “pricey”. They sell them at Best Buy here in America, along with toasters and refrigerators. Maybe in Europe, they jack up the price. Good speakers, but like all hybrid panels, even the MurAudio’s I had on long term loan, a compromise due to its hybrid nature.

I’d still take a pair of Quad 2912’s any day and live with their limitations. At least they’re pure sounding.

But glad you went with the AG XD’s. Great move, great speaker.

The ML 13A is priced here at £18000 plus a few hundred for the PBK kit - so about $23000 but that includes our 20% VAT. They are only sold here by a handful of authorised dealers and discounts are hotly discouraged by the distributor, although things may change since the distributor changed last year.

Yes, it's a ridiculous markup, but typical for US-made stuff imported here, and also reflects the (then) ML distributor that has a reputation for good products, but with a very generous markup for themselves!

Previously I had for a short time a pair of Quad 2905s, modified by Quad at Huntingdon with 2912 transformers, etc. I liked them and they performed well in my difficult listening room, although I couldn't live with these "barn doors" in the middle of my room. That's why I went for the near-transparent slim MLs.

Yes, the MLs are hybrid, but effectively so are the Avantgardes. Properly adjusted, I find no problem in having the self-powered subs detached from the horns or panels. Nevertheless, I'm pleased that you and others here think that the Duo XDs are a good replacement for my 2006-ish vintage Duos.

Typing this on Firefox, there are no character dropouts - only my spelling mistakes which for some obscure reason are not underlined in red as they are with IE. Curious.

Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

The ML 13A is priced here at £18000 plus a few hundred for the PBK kit - so about $23000 but that includes our 20% VAT. They are only sold here by a handful of authorised dealers and discounts are hotly discouraged by the distributor, although things may change since the distributor changed last year.

Yes, it's a ridiculous markup, but typical for US-made stuff imported here, and also reflects the (then) ML distributor that has a reputation for good products, but with a very generous markup for themselves!

Previously I had for a short time a pair of Quad 2905s, modified by Quad at Huntingdon with 2912 transformers, etc. I liked them and they performed well in my difficult listening room, although I couldn't live with these "barn doors" in the middle of my room. That's why I went for the near-transparent slim MLs.

Yes, the MLs are hybrid, but effectively so are the Avantgardes. Properly adjusted, I find no problem in having the self-powered subs detached from the horns or panels. Nevertheless, I'm pleased that you and others here think that the Duo XDs are a good replacement for my 2006-ish vintage Duos.

Typing this on Firefox, there are no character dropouts - only my spelling mistakes which for some obscure reason are not underlined in red as they are with IE. Curious.

Peter

I said, “hybrid panels”. Many speakers are hybrid’s in nature. Plasma tweeters with traditional cones. Ribbon tweeters with cones. My MBL’s. Etc. But hybrid panels have never been perfectly integrated. I like those “barn doors”. .

My list of “speakers I would buy if I wasn’t in the business” is pretty short, but those barn doors are one of them. . The others are M2, AG Duo XD’s, MBL 101e Mk2, Vivid G1 spirit.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

That's not a DSP speaker. Thats a conventional speaker with an onboard DSP subwoofer. It has zero ability to change its polar pattern to highly forward direct radiation, like the horns you prefer, in your room.
That's a limitation of that type speaker. Agreed.

cheers,

AJ

Yes, my take on it is that neither the MLs nor the new Duo XDs have true DSP. They have the ability to more accurately adjust frequencies responses around the XO frequency, taking account of room acoustics, although how this is done on the AG without including a calibrated mic, I don't yet know!

Since the ML squirts half its energt backwards (panel and sub) and since I have no rear wall to rescue some of this but instead angled windows 12 and 15 ft behind the speakers, perhaps it's not fair to expect the MLs to perform well in my room - DSP or not. The AGs are better in that all energy is projected forward with the disadvantage that music is decidedly dull when listening in my dining area behind the speakers! C'est la vie.

I'm looking forward to their arrival.

Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

The AGs are better in that all energy is projected forward with the disadvantage that music is decidedly dull when listening in my dining area behind the speakers!

Understood. Yes, my guess just looking at the small cropped pic of your room, a high directionality speaker would do well. There are DSP speakers that can "Play backwards" so to speak. Or get a speaker turntable for your AGs
Btw, love that view. Harbor?

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Understood. Yes, my guess just looking at the small cropped pic of your room, a high directionality speaker would do well. There are DSP speakers that can "Play backwards" so to speak. Or get a speaker turntable for your AGs
Btw, love that view. Harbor?

cheers,

AJ

Thanks AJ. The harbour is Portsmouth Harbour on the South Coast. The sailing ships you may be able to see are HMS Warrior and HMS Victory, Nelson'r flagship at Trafalgar.

Room plan attached - I love the idea of turntables. Or perhaps I should keep my old Duos and place them facing backwards!

Plan - 112 Living Room PDF.pdf

Apparently the "ideal speaker" would not be an electrostatic design.

Unfortunately according to J. Gordon Holt in 1985 electrostatics come with an unenviable history of woes ranging from gross inefficiency, through "difficult" amplifier loading, to daunting unreliability.

It appears some research to create a speaker system that will produce great mids and highs without the inherent problems of an electrostatic is in order to create that "ideal speaker". Couple that with a specifically designed active crossover/subwoofer in a separate cabinet for low bass between 80-20Hz.

At audio shows I've heard only a handful of speakers that on admitted limited hearing are capable of producing really good full frequency range in one box. Too many compromises starting with amplifier demand, reflecting ports, and vibration smearing the mids and highs.

Originally Posted by bernardl

Yes, most probably. Starting to the distance to the walls a speaker was designed to work with.

One clear exception to this though is Devialet’s SAM technology. The usage of a smart DSP to compensate a speaker’s imperfect response is a no brainer. There is no reason no to want to do it. Whether Devialet’s implementation of the technology is ideal is a separate debate (I personally think it’s a game changer but that may be my owner’s subjectivity speaking).

Cheers,
Bernard

I agree with you in principle that "There is no reason no to want to do it." However, I'm still a bit undecided about the benefits of "room correction" having used 3 different technologies applied to my system. None has made significant improvement and one in particular sucked the life out of my music.

My Martin Logan speakers use an Anthem method and I was impressed by how is was applied. A calibrated microphone, together with its online calibration table is used by the software that generates a number of tones through the amplifier / speakers. The system measures the frequency response that is heard at the listening position and offers an adjustment such that the response is levelled out. This system certainly made a small improvement, though I was somewhat nonplussed by it.

I had a Micromega amplifier for a while that uses their MARS room correction method. Again this is done with a calibrated mic, but I used it with my Avantgarde speakers and again the method offered a small change in the music though not convincing as real improvement.

Lyngdorf offer their RoomPerfect method developed from the old TACT system. A mic is supplied but no calibration table is offered and I was suspicious that the mic would be no more accurate than the speakers in the absense of the calibration. Indeed the results were very poor with the life sucked out of the music.

In view of the characteristics of my difficult room, I must say I was expecting much more from these room correction systems. I'm looking forward to finding a method that genuinely and accurately measures the overall quality of sound at the listening position and offers an adjustment that makes one startled at the improvement. Or do I have to start off with poor quality speakers for any real improvement to be achieved? In principle, the better an audio system starts off in life, the less it should need to be adjusted to offer magical music.

The temptation for manufactures will be to knock up mediocre speakers and offer an adjustemt system that magically sorts out the problems the designer hasn't bothered to address in its design. Food for thought!

Peter

Grateful Dead’s wall of sound. It was powered by McIntosh as well. Can’t imagine how much that would cost in todays dollars.


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There never will be an ideal speaker, there will only be what we settle for, and that necessarily is not a bad thing.


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Originally Posted by UltraFast69

There never will be an ideal speaker, there will only be what we settle for, and that necessarily is not a bad thing.


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Perhaps it's my imperfect English, but I see a difference between ideal and perfect.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ideal or Perfect speakers - to me are the ones I can live with. When the day they cease to be, it's time to look for another ideal/perfection. For example, M6 is the ideal/perfect, now its no longer cause there's a new lady call M9.

Originally Posted by bernardl

Starting to the distance to the walls a speaker was designed to work with.

Maybe with an "ideal" speaker, those type parameters are not fixed, but variable.
The shape, intensity, correlation and timing of polar responses, all adjustable, for both room and music type, taste.
Maybe not.

cheers,

AJ

the solution is out there.

Yeah but Mike doesn't carry them any more

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Yeah but Mike doesn't carry them any more

Ha! Nope, no more. Boulder and Gryphon now. Neither tries to sell direct to my customers!


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Originally Posted by Mike

Ok. Not sure I would consider those “pricey”. They sell them at Best Buy here in America, along with toasters and refrigerators. Maybe in Europe, they jack up the price. Good speakers, but like all hybrid panels, even the MurAudio’s I had on long term loan, a compromise due to its hybrid nature.

I’d still take a pair of Quad 2912’s any day and live with their limitations. At least they’re pure sounding.

But glad you went with the AG XD’s. Great move, great speaker.


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Quads biggest limitation is their failure rate. When they work they do sound nice.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Martin Logan Expression 13A in high gloss black - pristine condition as effectively unused. All accessories inc PBK kit and original packaging. UK only

PS - Almst impossible to type posts on the forumusing Ineret Explorer. Lots o character go missing as his sentavce ilusrate.

Peter

I have no such problem. However, I'm using Edge.

I tried DSP one time DEQX Premate. Nope.

Sounding more like life was what attracted me to Magneplanars when I first heard and immediately bought a pair (MG-1) in 1976. That led me to ESL's. So, along the way I've tried various Maggies and ESL's. However, all the panels I could afford and/or fit into my room were/are defficient in the bass. That somewhat changed when I bought a pair of Acoustat Spectra 22's with the SPW-1 woofer. At last, halfway decent bass to go with that life like sound.

A couple of years after that I came across the PASS DIY site. He had designed a very simple TL subwoofer. His used a 15" driver which was a little larger than I could work with. I scaled his design down to 12" and built 2. Those two subs are still in daily use and complement my Maggie 1.7's. IMO I have lifelike sound with deep bass.

FWIW: IMO there are two approaches to making a speaker. There is the, they are here sound exemplified by Klipsch and JBL. And, there is the you are there sound exemplified by Magnepan and Martin Logan. As for a speaker disappearing, I've had guests stand right next to a panel and ask, "where is the sound coming from?".

Just an observation and to state the obvious no "Ideal Speaker" needs a subwoofer.

If it was "ideal" it (by definition) doesn't require outside support - otherwise it fails to be "ideal". Peter

I agree with HH. The closest I've ever heard to ideal was a pair of Sound Lab ESL's. Large and relatively expensive they have a single diaphragm that actually does 24Hz to beyond 20KHz.

Had I the space and funds, I'd be listening to a pair of Sound Lab Ultimate 745's.

Originally Posted by Lightfoot

Being a sealed box speaker they have this instant presentation like the artist or band is in your room and will show how that musician played that solo....

But isn't that the main reason for NOT choosing a box speaker? Electrostatics and horns will normally offer a more lifelike sound than a box. If you love the ATC 40 but want more bass, how about the ATC 50? The latter is a reflex design and I used to own the active version for a short while in 2002. Frankly I didn't like it at all - I wanted to push it 20 ft further away from the listening position - it was too much "in yer face". OK in studios but not homes was my conclusion. I sold them and bought the far for likeable Avantgarde Unos. No need for external subs/ These I kept till last year, only to be changed for newer Duos. Peter

Originally Posted by Kingrex

Don't the atc have direct coupled amp to driver with internal power and electronic crossover

ATC offer Active and Passive versions of many of their speakers. I had Active 50s with built-in amps and XO - I think Lightfoot was probably describing the Passive 40s

Ultima 2 tweeter maggie mids and meridian dsp bass.