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January 16, 2021, 08:59 PM #1
How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
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January 16, 2021, 09:25 PM #2
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January 17, 2021, 10:54 AM #3
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Isn't this just a variation from isobaric loading developed by Harry Olson back in the 1950s?
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June 5, 2021, 05:23 PM #4
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Great to see other brands other than Vivid employing this engineering tech that Dickie spearheaded over a half decade ago with the Giya range.
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 6, 2021, 05:26 PM #5
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Neko Audio
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June 6, 2021, 05:48 PM #6
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Isobarik loaded woofers don't have magnet to magnet , it’s usually woofers compounded together operating in the same volumetric space .
These force cancelling designs with magnet to magnet are not new in concept but were never really adapted before because early loudspeaker design 101 teaches heavily about never to place woofers on opposing walls because of the bass cancelling force ..
Maybe the physics have changed a bit, no wait it’s the crafty marketing
Regards
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June 6, 2021, 05:52 PM #7
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
I don't believe the Vivid Audio application is isobaric as an isobaric magnet - to - magnet typically requires one woofer to be in a non - vented enclosure. The Vivid coupling is mechanical (physically connecting both drivers so the mechanical force of the coil to cone and finally to the driver chassis / magnet is cancelled via equal force from opposite mounted drivers. Other than that it's a typical ported woofer enclosure (if typical includes a chamber with no parallel surfaces).
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 6, 2021, 07:27 PM #8
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Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
KEF Blades have featured force cancelling woofers for around 10 years.
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June 6, 2021, 07:47 PM #9
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 6, 2021, 08:07 PM #10
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
This force cancelling phenom came to front and center when everyone started placing underhung woofers in small sealed underweight enclosures and watch them walk around the room when fed any low frequency info, by adding the second woofer back to back there were able to cancel this destabilizing effect.
Think of it as another avenue to Bass and not “the” avenue ...!
Regards
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June 7, 2021, 11:51 AM #11
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
MartinLogan has (essentially) been doing that for years! First, with their "BalancedForce" subs, and now, with their latest Masterpiece line. With my ML BF210 subs, as well as my Expression 13A's, I can balance a nickel on the cabinet, then play Béla Fleck's Flight of the Cosmic Hippo. No vibration or resonance whatsoever, even with the deepest bass notes!
Squeezebox Touch/Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB + Oppo 205 > Conrad Johnson CT5 preamp and Premier 350 amp > Martin Logan Expression 13A's and two ML BF210 subs. Audience Au24e I/C's & speaker cable. Member of the Suncoast Audiophile Society.
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June 7, 2021, 12:31 PM #12
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
I think folks are getting two topologies and implementations confused. The ML BalancedForce® Alignment takes 2 opposed drivers "spaced 180 degrees apart" in a sealed relatively small cabinet and as such, the back waves essentially cancel out. The Vivid and the KEF technology has 2 driver mechanically coupled via a rod such that the drivers mechanically cancel out the physical driver vibrations. So no, ML is not doing what Kef and Vivid are doing.
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 7, 2021, 01:14 PM #13
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Yes, that's why I said ML is "essentially" doing that. They are not physically coupled, but the net effect is the same.
Squeezebox Touch/Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB + Oppo 205 > Conrad Johnson CT5 preamp and Premier 350 amp > Martin Logan Expression 13A's and two ML BF210 subs. Audience Au24e I/C's & speaker cable. Member of the Suncoast Audiophile Society.
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June 7, 2021, 01:30 PM #14
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Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
I wonder if one of these driver technics is what Audio Physics does.
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June 7, 2021, 02:34 PM #15
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 7, 2021, 05:04 PM #16
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Ok , Its dead ...!
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June 13, 2021, 07:05 PM #17
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
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June 13, 2021, 07:19 PM #18
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Ancient , 1950’s not that ancient , they already had electricity and autonomous cars ..
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June 13, 2021, 07:32 PM #19
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Prehistoric, like early 90s
https://us.kef.com/pub/media/pdf/Ref...el_103_4_r.pdf
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June 13, 2021, 08:46 PM #20
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Poor horse....
It's not the same. The opposing drivers from Pinnacle, Martin Logan, etc. are not physically connected which is unique to the Vivid Audio Giya range and KEF blades. It's not about the drivers' rear wave, it's about the drivers chassis' opposing movement that's cancelled.4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 13, 2021, 08:52 PM #21
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
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June 13, 2021, 09:10 PM #22
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Now we're in the 80's (see Doug/Soundstage response to Andrew Jones in video comments).
https://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20210613/4705.pdf
Of course its always "new"...to audiophiles.
Btw, the old penny on end trick will work exactly the same on Pinnacle, ML, KEF etc.
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June 13, 2021, 11:37 PM #23
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Let's keep this simple Mr. snarky speaker designer:
A) Are the drivers physically attached in any other company other than Vivid Audio and KEF? No.
B) Is there a difference between "cancelling" 2 drivers' rear wave via installing in a sealed cabinet where both drivers' rear waves cancel compared to two opposing drivers that are physically connected and opposing each others' chassis movement that are not cancelling each others' rear wave as they are in a ported design? Yes.
They are different design topologies with different end results that are somewhat related.
And the Vivid Audio / KEF implementation cancels the secondary force from the cones (resultant in the driver chassis) while the ML / Pinnacle cancels the primary force from the actual cones. Makes sense?4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 14, 2021, 12:26 PM #24
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Ok, I see the source of your confusion. "Spaced" 180 is not "wired" 180, aka opposite polarity. That would be a box dipole, no such thing exists to my knowledge. Regardless, its incorrect. The ML is a force cancelling design, the drivers are IN phase.
That's precisely what Alan demonstrated with the nickel. The chassis attachment means ZERO, the forces are cancelled regardless...by the "spaced 180" drivers. The ONLY thing the connected chassis does is stiffen the enclosure. It is, as demonstrated , completely irrelevant to force cancelling.
You have no idea. The 80s Pioneer paper showed...interconnected drivers.
Regardless, its irrelevant to the topic - Force cancellation. Its not a necessity whatsoever.
That is all your misunderstanding of "spaced".
They all do the exact same thing. Force cancel. The only difference is the added structural stiffening of interconnected opposed drivers. Unnecessary for force cancellation, as DEMO'd. Also unnecessary in a small sub cube type enclosure.
In a larger sidewall floor standing type design (Giya, KEF blade, etc), there would be possibly beneficial added stiffness.
Bottom line, force cancellation is nothing new.
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June 14, 2021, 05:01 PM #25
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
We'll have to agree to disagree that both solutions "do the exact same thing." However, I'll leave you with this bit of information relative to your comment stating, "That's precisely what Alan demonstrated with the nickel. The chassis attachment means ZERO, the forces are cancelled regardless...by the "spaced 180" drivers. The ONLY thing the connected chassis does is stiffen the enclosure. It is, as demonstrated , completely irrelevant to force cancelling".
Vivid Audio Show Alpha High End belgium - Laurence Dickie - Part 2 - YouTube starting at about 8 minutes in...
"It completely removes the reaction force from the couple (of the opposing and attached drivers), and so the transmission of vibration from the chassis to the cabinet is eliminated". -- Laurence Dickie.
And here's a tip - condescension and typing in caps and bold is unbecoming of any adult let alone a purported speaker designing professional. Perception counts.
And as always, Happy Listening!4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 14, 2021, 05:49 PM #26
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
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June 14, 2021, 06:01 PM #27
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 14, 2021, 06:10 PM #28
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
No prob and glad you learned what spaced means.
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June 14, 2021, 06:18 PM #29
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Cancel culture with force ...!
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June 14, 2021, 06:33 PM #30
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 14, 2021, 06:56 PM #31
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Luckily my clientele know what basic words like "spaced" means
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June 14, 2021, 07:10 PM #32
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
Do they know their designer believes "chassis attachment means ZERO..."? Audiophiles and basic physics don't mix, no need for agreement. Maybe you should call up Dickie and discuss - as an audiophile... ;-)
4x20A circuits | Shunyata Triton + Typhon | Source 1: HDPlex HD100 PSU -> OCX clock + EtherRegen -> Paul Hynes SR4T + HDPlex HD500 PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT XE nic, Squeezebox, Roon, Tidal / Qobuz | TotalDAC Live PSU + D1 Twelve Mk II DAC + Mk II streamer | Source 2: Acoustic Signature Ascona TT | Kuzma 4 point tonearm | Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart | Pass XP-15 phono pre | Audionet Pre G2 preamp | Audionet Max mono blocks | Vivid Audio Giya Spirits | 4 JL Audio Fathom subs | Echole ICs /SCs / Siltech King jumpers, Shunyata/Audioquest PCs / Eth. Cs | Critical Mass CS2s -> components, Isoacoustics -> speakers + subs | Adona Altair reference and Eris II racks | Fully treated and dedicated 2 channel room
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June 14, 2021, 07:16 PM #33
Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations
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