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  1. #1
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    How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

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    Talking Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Sincerely,

    Calvin

  3. #3

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Isn't this just a variation from isobaric loading developed by Harry Olson back in the 1950s?
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  4. #4

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Great to see other brands other than Vivid employing this engineering tech that Dickie spearheaded over a half decade ago with the Giya range.
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  5. #5
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Isn't this just a variation from isobaric loading developed by Harry Olson back in the 1950s?
    Yes, I believe so. Magnet-to-magnet is one possible configuration. I built my subwoofers that way.
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  6. #6
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Isobarik loaded woofers don't have magnet to magnet , it’s usually woofers compounded together operating in the same volumetric space .

    These force cancelling designs with magnet to magnet are not new in concept but were never really adapted before because early loudspeaker design 101 teaches heavily about never to place woofers on opposing walls because of the bass cancelling force ..

    Maybe the physics have changed a bit, no wait it’s the crafty marketing




    Regards

  7. #7

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by NekoAudio View Post
    Yes, I believe so. Magnet-to-magnet is one possible configuration. I built my subwoofers that way.
    I don't believe the Vivid Audio application is isobaric as an isobaric magnet - to - magnet typically requires one woofer to be in a non - vented enclosure. The Vivid coupling is mechanical (physically connecting both drivers so the mechanical force of the coil to cone and finally to the driver chassis / magnet is cancelled via equal force from opposite mounted drivers. Other than that it's a typical ported woofer enclosure (if typical includes a chamber with no parallel surfaces).
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  8. #8
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    KEF Blades have featured force cancelling woofers for around 10 years.

  9. #9

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by GSOphile View Post
    KEF Blades have featured force cancelling woofers for around 10 years.
    I believe the Kef Blades were released in 2012 four years after Vivid Audio released the Giya G1 with their Reaction Cancelling Compliant Mount (what Kef dubbed "Force cancelling woofers") in 2008.


    Both great designs and great speakers btw.
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  10. #10
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    This force cancelling phenom came to front and center when everyone started placing underhung woofers in small sealed underweight enclosures and watch them walk around the room when fed any low frequency info, by adding the second woofer back to back there were able to cancel this destabilizing effect.


    Think of it as another avenue to Bass and not “the” avenue ...!



    Regards

  11. #11
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    MartinLogan has (essentially) been doing that for years! First, with their "BalancedForce" subs, and now, with their latest Masterpiece line. With my ML BF210 subs, as well as my Expression 13A's, I can balance a nickel on the cabinet, then play Béla Fleck's Flight of the Cosmic Hippo. No vibration or resonance whatsoever, even with the deepest bass notes!

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  12. #12

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post
    MartinLogan has (essentially) been doing that for years! First, with their "BalancedForce" subs, and now, with their latest Masterpiece line. With my ML BF210 subs, as well as my Expression 13A's, I can balance a nickel on the cabinet, then play Béla Fleck's Flight of the Cosmic Hippo. No vibration or resonance whatsoever, even with the deepest bass notes!

    I think folks are getting two topologies and implementations confused. The ML BalancedForce® Alignment takes 2 opposed drivers "spaced 180 degrees apart" in a sealed relatively small cabinet and as such, the back waves essentially cancel out. The Vivid and the KEF technology has 2 driver mechanically coupled via a rod such that the drivers mechanically cancel out the physical driver vibrations. So no, ML is not doing what Kef and Vivid are doing.
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  13. #13
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Yes, that's why I said ML is "essentially" doing that. They are not physically coupled, but the net effect is the same.
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  14. #14
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    I wonder if one of these driver technics is what Audio Physics does.
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  15. #15

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post
    Yes, that's why I said ML is "essentially" doing that. They are not physically coupled, but the net effect is the same.
    Not to beat a dead horse but they're not essentially the same. One attempts to cancel the rear wave of 2 drivers, the other cancels the stresses placed on the cabinet and the drivers' chassis.
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  16. #16
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Ok , Its dead ...!

  17. #17
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    Not to beat a dead horse but they're not essentially the same. One attempts to cancel the rear wave of 2 drivers, the other cancels the stresses placed on the cabinet and the drivers' chassis.
    No sir. The physics is exactly the same. The opposing driver forces cancel. There is no "rear wave cancellation". The drivers are IN phase.
    This is an ancient concept. I still have a late 90s Pinnacle Baby Boomer stashed somewhere...and they weren't first.

  18. #18
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Ancient , 1950’s not that ancient , they already had electricity and autonomous cars ..

  19. #19
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations


  20. #20

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    No sir. The physics is exactly the same. The opposing driver forces cancel. There is no "rear wave cancellation". The drivers are IN phase.
    This is an ancient concept. I still have a late 90s Pinnacle Baby Boomer stashed somewhere...and they weren't first.
    Poor horse....

    It's not the same. The opposing drivers from Pinnacle, Martin Logan, etc. are not physically connected which is unique to the Vivid Audio Giya range and KEF blades. It's not about the drivers' rear wave, it's about the drivers chassis' opposing movement that's cancelled.
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  21. #21
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    Poor horse....
    it's about the drivers chassis' opposing movement that's cancelled.
    That does zero to oppose force. It serves a stiffener to the structure(s). The unconnected drivers have the exact same force cancellation.
    Poor audiophile, its a high school physics thing.
    The chassis don't move, the cones do via motor force.

  22. #22
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Now we're in the 80's (see Doug/Soundstage response to Andrew Jones in video comments).
    https://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20210613/4705.pdf
    Of course its always "new"...to audiophiles.

    Btw, the old penny on end trick will work exactly the same on Pinnacle, ML, KEF etc.

  23. #23

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    That does zero to oppose force. It serves a stiffener to the structure(s). The unconnected drivers have the exact same force cancellation.
    Poor audiophile, its a high school physics thing.
    The chassis don't move, the cones do via motor force.
    Let's keep this simple Mr. snarky speaker designer:

    A) Are the drivers physically attached in any other company other than Vivid Audio and KEF? No.
    B) Is there a difference between "cancelling" 2 drivers' rear wave via installing in a sealed cabinet where both drivers' rear waves cancel compared to two opposing drivers that are physically connected and opposing each others' chassis movement that are not cancelling each others' rear wave as they are in a ported design? Yes.

    They are different design topologies with different end results that are somewhat related.
    And the Vivid Audio / KEF implementation cancels the secondary force from the cones (resultant in the driver chassis) while the ML / Pinnacle cancels the primary force from the actual cones. Makes sense?
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  24. #24
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    I think folks are getting two topologies and implementations confused. The ML BalancedForce® Alignment takes 2 opposed drivers "spaced 180 degrees apart" in a sealed relatively small cabinet and as such, the back waves essentially cancel out.
    Ok, I see the source of your confusion. "Spaced" 180 is not "wired" 180, aka opposite polarity. That would be a box dipole, no such thing exists to my knowledge. Regardless, its incorrect. The ML is a force cancelling design, the drivers are IN phase.
    That's precisely what Alan demonstrated with the nickel. The chassis attachment means ZERO, the forces are cancelled regardless...by the "spaced 180" drivers. The ONLY thing the connected chassis does is stiffen the enclosure. It is, as demonstrated , completely irrelevant to force cancelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    A) Are the drivers physically attached in any other company other than Vivid Audio and KEF? No.
    You have no idea. The 80s Pioneer paper showed...interconnected drivers.
    Regardless, its irrelevant to the topic - Force cancellation. Its not a necessity whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    B) Is there a difference between "cancelling" 2 drivers' rear wave via installing in a sealed cabinet
    That is all your misunderstanding of "spaced".

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    They are different design topologies with different end results that are somewhat related.
    And the Vivid Audio / KEF implementation cancels the secondary force from the cones (resultant in the driver chassis) while the ML / Pinnacle cancels the primary force from the actual cones. Makes sense?
    They all do the exact same thing. Force cancel. The only difference is the added structural stiffening of interconnected opposed drivers. Unnecessary for force cancellation, as DEMO'd. Also unnecessary in a small sub cube type enclosure.
    In a larger sidewall floor standing type design (Giya, KEF blade, etc), there would be possibly beneficial added stiffness.
    Bottom line, force cancellation is nothing new.

  25. #25

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    We'll have to agree to disagree that both solutions "do the exact same thing." However, I'll leave you with this bit of information relative to your comment stating, "That's precisely what Alan demonstrated with the nickel. The chassis attachment means ZERO, the forces are cancelled regardless...by the "spaced 180" drivers. The ONLY thing the connected chassis does is stiffen the enclosure. It is, as demonstrated , completely irrelevant to force cancelling".

    Vivid Audio Show Alpha High End belgium - Laurence Dickie - Part 2 - YouTube starting at about 8 minutes in...

    "It completely removes the reaction force from the couple (of the opposing and attached drivers), and so the transmission of vibration from the chassis to the cabinet is eliminated". -- Laurence Dickie.

    And here's a tip - condescension and typing in caps and bold is unbecoming of any adult let alone a purported speaker designing professional. Perception counts.

    And as always, Happy Listening!
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  26. #26
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree that both solutions "do the exact same thing."
    That's ok, audiophiles and basic physics don't mix, no need for agreement.
    They all cancel forces/cabinet vibrations, the proof is in the (nickel) pudding...whether cognizant or not. Couldn't be any simpler than that.

    cheers

  27. #27

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    That's ok, audiophiles and basic physics don't mix, no need for agreement.
    They all cancel forces/cabinet vibrations, the proof is in the (nickel) pudding...whether cognizant or not. Couldn't be any simpler than that.

    cheers
    Nice, take a dig at your customer base, even though many of us have technical backgrounds. At least you graduated from caps and bold so there's that.

    Have a good one!
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  28. #28
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    No prob and glad you learned what spaced means.

  29. #29
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Cancel culture with force ...!

  30. #30

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Cancel culture with force ...!
    Yep, this guy just cancelled his whole client base...

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  31. #31
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Luckily my clientele know what basic words like "spaced" means

  32. #32

    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Do they know their designer believes "chassis attachment means ZERO..."? Audiophiles and basic physics don't mix, no need for agreement. Maybe you should call up Dickie and discuss - as an audiophile... ;-)
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  33. #33
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    Re: How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    Do they know their designer believes "chassis attachment means ZERO..."
    Sure. Anyone who comprehends Alans video of ML non attached driver chassis and that nickel not moving, understands that zero relation to force cancelling.
    No belief required. YMMV.

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How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

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