Thread: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

Some companies with SOTA-aspirational speakers strongly promote the unusual (exotic) materials technology of many of their drivers, others don't. Magico, YG, TAD, Estalon, Evolution Acoustics come to mind in the first camp, Wilson most notably in the second, and then there are ribbons, planars (electrostats and not) and horns to consider as well. Almost all manufacturers using cone speakers make note of attention paid to enclosure materials, design and construction (NOLA may be an exception here).

Thoughts?

Not really to what I am referring, although certainly true

I think Wilson proves it is not necessary. One listen to the Chronosonic XVX with it's paper and silk drivers and you'll become a believer!

Joseph Audio uses non modified SEAS drivers in their speakers and sound very musical. Have also received a large number of positive reviews if one believes that's relevant.

Originally Posted by Spock

Can you tell me what is the X-Material?

X-Material is a proprietary composite Wilson uses in certain parts of its speaker cabinets. They won't say what it is made of.

But the OP was talking about drivers, not cabinets.

Crappy music has and will continue to be available in every medium. If it a crap recording just choose another. Too much music is available for anyone to worry about compression or loudness.

Originally Posted by rbbert

Some companies with SOTA-aspirational speakers strongly promote the unusual (exotic) materials technology of many of their drivers, others don't. Magico, YG, TAD, Estalon, Evolution Acoustics come to mind in the first camp, Wilson most notably in the second, and then there are ribbons, planars (electrostats and not) and horns to consider as well. Almost all manufacturers using cone speakers make note of attention paid to enclosure materials, design and construction (NOLA may be an exception here).

Thoughts?

I think the title of your thread is creating a false narrative when you ask are exotic material drivers "required" for a SOTA loudspeaker. Required by who? There are no "requirements" for how a company designs, markets, and ultimately sell their speakers into the market place. There are no rules for what defines a SOTA speaker so any speaker company can claim that moniker. The number of companies that can lay claim to using exotic materials for their drivers is small compared to the number of speaker companies that use off-the-shelf drivers or drivers they claim to be "modified" to their specifications.

The real question to ask is whether or not people are make purchasing decisions on expensive SOTA speakers by the types of drivers used in the speakers. Again, there are no requirements imposed by anyone that only speakers that contain exotic drivers can be considered SOTA. If there was such a requirement, Wilson Audio would have gone out of business a long time ago. Obviously people vote with their wallets and Wilson Audio is considered one of the top speaker companies in the U.S. if not the world and they are still thriving.

Yes, my OP was referring to marketplace “requirements” rather than a true design imperative, and I am still curious to hear others’ thoughts. I should make it clear that I personally don’t think exotic or other materials are necessary or important in SOTA speaker design or implementation, but some high-end (and not so high-end) manufacturers would apparently like us to believe they are

Originally Posted by rbbert

Yes, my OP was referring to marketplace “requirements” rather than a true design imperative, and I am still curious to hear others’ thoughts. I should make it clear that I personally don’t think exotic or other materials are necessary or important in SOTA speaker design or implementation, but some high-end (and not so high-end) manufacturers would apparently like us to believe they are

It’s called marketing Rob.

Originally Posted by mep

It’s called marketing Rob.

And based on our country's current situation, a very large percentage of people base their actions and beliefs on just that.

Just curious as to how swayed members are here and at other audiophile forums WRT to speaker design.

I respect the latest drivers and driver technology, but it’s the sound that counts at the end of the day. If it’s that new driver technology that delivers the great sound, than I’m all for it. I can assure you, putting fancy off the shelf drivers in a cabinet doesn’t make them a great speaker. There is so much more to it.


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Originally Posted by rbbert

And based on our country's current situation, a very large percentage of people base their actions and beliefs on just that.

Just curious as to how swayed members are here and at other audiophile forums WRT to speaker design.

Are you changing the focus away from exotic drivers to the actual design of speakers?

Originally Posted by mep

Are you changing the focus away from exotic drivers to the actual design of speakers?

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that

Originally Posted by rbbert

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that

OK. When I read this from you, I thought you switched gears:

“Just curious as to how swayed members are here and at other audiophile forums WRT to speaker design.”

I am thrilled beyond belief with my wood cabinet speakers with (basically) off-the-shelf drivers, so I definitely do not believe the premise I questioned in the OP, and I have spent a fair amount of time listening to speakers with "exotic" driver and/or enclosure materials (as have most members here, I suspect).

exotic material , its all about how the material is used in the complete product. I look at it like cars, sure I can drop a Dart block in my 66 vette, but will it be as good as say the block GM built for the car , I say it all depends, as there is more to it than one component. .

Originally Posted by Mike

I respect the latest drivers and driver technology, but it’s the sound that counts at the end of the day. If it’s that new driver technology that delivers the great sound, than I’m all for it. I can assure you, putting fancy off the shelf drivers in a cabinet doesn’t make them a great speaker. There is so much more to it.


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I agree. after hearing tons of speakers over the past few years, can't say driver materials influenced the sound specifically. it's a sum of the parts imo.

Though slightly apples and oranges but.
If you use SOTA materials to build a violin does that mean a Stradivarius can't be STOA with those old materials.

Originally Posted by brad225

Though slightly apples and oranges but.
If you use SOTA materials to build a violin does that mean a Stradivarius can't be STOA with those old materials.

Must be right, that would also mean my 1950 Martin D28 is just sub-par

To answer MEP’s question, yes, my speaker purchasing decision was based in part on the drivers using SOTA materials. I wanted speakers first, that sounded musical and could deliver clarity and timbral purity on my jazz recordings. Second, I wanted the drivers to be technologically advanced. My Vandersteen 7 Mk2’s employ a carbon/balsa/carbon sandwich in their speaker cones that are fused together by baking them in an oven. The sandwich design is used on the dome tweeter, the midrange and the woofer. It is extremely light, rigid and pistonic. Third, the cabinet uses a carbon fiber composite to reduce resonances. Lastly, the speakers are time and phase coherent, measure well and have lower distortion than many other designs.

Certainly, great sounding speakers can and have been designed using traditional materials. But for me personally, I would not purchase speakers unless the company designed and manufactured its own drivers, and used advanced materials.

Ken

Driver materials do matter – at least in this designer’s opinion. The video shows analysis for two mid range drivers, an ultra-rigid carbon-fiber/balsa core design vs. “a very expensive paper driver cone that is employed in some very high-end speaker designs.”


Source: “The Truth About Pistonic Driver Cones”, The Truth About Pistonic Driver Cones | Vandersteen Audio Accessed 20 Dec 2020.

Originally Posted by Alpinist

To answer MEP’s question, yes, my speaker purchasing decision was based in part on the drivers using SOTA materials. I wanted speakers first, that sounded musical and could deliver clarity and timbral purity on my jazz recordings. Second, I wanted the drivers to be technologically advanced. My Vandersteen 7 Mk2’s employ a carbon/balsa/carbon sandwich in their speaker cones that are fused together by baking them in an oven. The sandwich design is used on the dome tweeter, the midrange and the woofer. It is extremely light, rigid and pistonic. Third, the cabinet uses a carbon fiber composite to reduce resonances and is phase correct. Lastly, the speakers measure well and have lower distortion than many other designs.

Certainly, great sounding speakers can and have been designed using traditional materials. But for me personally, I would not purchase speakers unless the company designed and manufactured its own drivers, and used advanced materials.

Ken

Hey Ken. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say the cabinets are "phase corrected." I read all of the marketing materials on the Vandy website for your speakers and unless I missed it, I saw no mention of the cabinets being "phase corrected."

Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001

Driver materials do matter – at least in this designer’s opinion. The video shows analysis for two mid range drivers, an ultra-rigid carbon-fiber/balsa core design vs. “a very expensive paper driver cone that is employed in some very high-end speaker designs.”


Source: “The Truth About Pistonic Driver Cones”, The Truth About Pistonic Driver Cones | Vandersteen Audio Accessed 20 Dec 2020.

Wonder why he is driving a midrange cone to 14 kHz? I doubt most midrange drivers were designed to operate that high.

personally i don't have an opinion about the technical aspect of driver materials. i've not sat down with 20 drivers with different materials and compared them head to head. but i have my experiences.

i formed an opinion now 20 years ago when i went from the paper drivers in my Wilson WP6.0's to the the ceramic mid range of my Kharma Exquisite 1D's. it seemed like the ceramic mid range was much more life like. and i had not heard that from any other driver. when those Kharma's could not do enough bass in the new room i had built, i switched to the Von Schweikert VR9SE's with again paper drivers for the mids. no doubt i liked those VR9SE's alot, but i missed the magic of the ceramic mid range. during this time my friend Jonathan Tinn, who had heard my Kharma speakers and liked them enough to become a dealer, started working on designing his own speaker. and he choose the same Accuton ceramic mid range from the Kharma for that project. later when he created Evolution Acoustics he carried over that (now dual) ceramic mid-range, and i got the 2nd set of MM3's built.

7 years later i upgraded to the newly designed, twin tower MM7, which not only carried over the Accuton ceramic mid-range, but doubled down with -4- per side Accuton Ceramic 11" woofers. so now i had ceramic drivers from 30hz to 3khz. wow and double wow. no dynamic driver speaker i have heard can do what the MM7's do in these frequencies. ceramic is inherently stiff and light, and retains linearity and lack of distortion.

we might note that the new Ultra series from Von Schweikert switched to ceramic drivers. and the new super uber big $$$ Magico M9 uses the same 11" Accuton ceramic woofer (somewhat modified) used in my MM7's (but only 2 per side).

there are plenty of great sounding speakers and drivers out there. and i'm in the camp that execution counts for much more than choice of bits. but i have observed that the presence of ceramic drivers does seem to corelate to my enjoyment mostly. there is just a sparkle and transparent component to the presentation that attracts my ear. yet no hardness or sense of mechanical type sound. i also feel that the ceramic drivers put demands on overall speaker design execution as they are not forgiving. crossovers and voicing must be spot on. and ceramic drivers if not properly treated can ring as they are so stiff. so it's not a trivial choice to use them.

i am intrigued by the Bending Wave driver from the Gobel. although it's amplifier requirements are considerable.

Originally Posted by nicoff

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Only if the picture is put into proper context. Nobody is driving a dedicated midrange driver to 14 kHz, let alone driving the midrange cone with a pure 14 kHz test tone.

Originally Posted by mep

Hey Ken. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say the cabinets are "phase corrected." I read all of the marketing materials on the Vandy website for your speakers and unless I missed it, I saw no mention of the cabinets being "phase corrected."

According to Richard, his speakers are time and phase coherent. I assume he would know. I adjusted my post to reflect this.

Ken

Originally Posted by Alpinist

According to Richard, his speakers are time and phase coherent. I assume he would know. I adjusted my post to reflect this.

Ken

That is true Ken. What Richard said makes sense. Saying the cabinets are phase corrected didn’t make sense.

Originally Posted by mep

Only if the picture is put into proper context. Nobody is driving a dedicated midrange driver to 14 kHz, let alone driving the midrange cone with a pure 14 kHz test tone.

I stand corrected. The second tone is 1.4 kHz, not 14 kHz. Now the test makes sense. I missed the decimal point. Dre enlightened me that I was wrong.

Originally Posted by mdp632

Many SOTA companies here that seem to have an objective approach; Magico , Wilson and YG tout the use of exotic materials to achieve a pistonic motion in their drivers.

As a result, less distortion , can be measured and easily heard. As mentioned above.

However, I do think that it is subjective hobby and many designers (Wilson) subjectively prefer and want to voice their speakers as such.

The sum of all parts.

Wilson uses exotic driver materials?


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Less distortion often at the expense of "efficiency", and perhaps dynamics or whatever term you use for the "jump" factor that characterizes most (or all?) high-efficiency speakers? In addition to the radiation pattern of live music (or at least most musical instruments), that property is frequently cited as important in quickly telling live from reproduced.

Originally Posted by rbbert

Less distortion often at the expense of "efficiency", and perhaps dynamics or whatever term you use for the "jump" factor that characterizes most (or all?) high-efficiency speakers? In addition to the radiation pattern of live music (or at least most musical instruments), that property is frequently cited as important in quickly telling live from reproduced.

For the here and now, I’m done with low sensitivity/low impedance speakers. That journey away from low sensitivity/low impedance speakers started with the NOLA KOs I owned for years and carried over to my JBL 4345 speakers. I don’t see myself going back.

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

and the new super uber big $$$ Magico M9 uses the same 11" Accuton ceramic woofer (somewhat modified) used in my MM7's (but only 2 per side).

Mike, I'm not sure where you read / heard that the Magico M9 uses ceramic drivers. Their drivers other than the tweeter (Be) use aluminum honeycomb core sandwiched between a graphene/carbon fiber skin.

IME over the years as you hear better and better systems and speakers you learn to hear the detriment of speaker designs adopted by brands (but sometimes modified over time) and sometimes, less often you hear which speakers do sound right. By right, I mean lower distortion, seamless transition driver to driver and across all drivers, lack of detrimental box effects, a high level of detail, extreme dynamics, effortlessness and the rarest of all - neutrality.

All that said, IMO there's a relationship between the speaker requirements above and the materials used (to be fair there are also other variables). Again, IME the best of the best I've heard don't use paper which is a good material in terms of cost and inherent self damping characteristics, however it lacks the stiffness and control of materials like ceramic, metals and carbon - based drivers.

The problem here is that, as humans we are subjective creatures and as such, not all value what I value as critical to a very high quality speaker and drivers. For example. some people don't value neutrality, they want a "warmer" sound. Some want "slammin' bass" over articulate accurate bass. And as such, some high end speaker companies capitalize in a market who like what they hear even if the design has inherent distortion, lacks frequency balance and has exaggerated and sometimes bloated bass. Net - driver materials matter in truly high end designs and for those that care about the attributes stated above. But for many (most?) of the market, it's meaningless.