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  1. #51
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Interestingly, YG Acoustics does not use SOTA materials in its drivers. Aluminum is hardly SOTA. However, the way they manufacture their driver cones out of aluminum is absolutely SOTA. The cones are milled out of a solid block of aluminum to maximize rigidity and minimize weight. I’ve listened to the Sonja 1.2’s and 2.2’s many times and I continue to be impressed by the realistic sound they produce.

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  2. #52

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    Interestingly, YG Acoustics does not use SOTA materials in its drivers. Aluminum is hardly SOTA. However, the way they manufacture their driver cones out of aluminum is absolutely SOTA. The cones are milled out of a solid block of aluminum to maximize rigidity and minimize weight. I’ve listened to the Sonja 1.2’s and 2.2’s many times and I continue to be impressed by the realistic sound they produce.

    Ken
    I went to the YG factory with Myles and got the $.50 tour one year when we were attending RMAF. It was an interesting tour.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    For the here and now, I’m done with low sensitivity/low impedance speakers. That journey away from low sensitivity/low impedance speakers started with the NOLA KOs I owned for years and carried over to my JBL 4345 speakers. I don’t see myself going back.
    One really comes to understand how much power is wasted as heat as an amp huffs and puffs to move a typical diaphragm in a direct radiator speaker for semi-realistic SPLs. Like you, I ain't going back. I've succumbed to the high-efficiently koolaid and its pretty darn good
    "Listening to Analogue music is an act of rebellion in a digital gulag" - Simon Yorke

  4. #54

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    Interestingly, YG Acoustics does not use SOTA materials in its drivers. Aluminum is hardly SOTA. However, the way they manufacture their driver cones out of aluminum is absolutely SOTA. The cones are milled out of a solid block of aluminum to maximize rigidity and minimize weight. I’ve listened to the Sonja 1.2’s and 2.2’s many times and I continue to be impressed by the realistic sound they produce.

    Ken
    Agree, and I would put Vivid Audio in that camp, also aluminum. Different approaches but both stellar SOTA speaker companies IMO.
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  5. #55
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    Mike, I'm not sure where you read / heard that the Magico M9 uses ceramic drivers. Their drivers other than the tweeter (Be) use aluminum honeycomb core sandwiched between a graphene/carbon fiber skin.

    IME over the years as you hear better and better systems and speakers you learn to hear the detriment of speaker designs adopted by brands (but sometimes modified over time) and sometimes, less often you hear which speakers do sound right. By right, I mean lower distortion, seamless transition driver to driver and across all drivers, lack of detrimental box effects, a high level of detail, extreme dynamics, effortlessness and the rarest of all - neutrality.

    All that said, IMO there's a relationship between the speaker requirements above and the materials used (to be fair there are also other variables). Again, IME the best of the best I've heard don't use paper which is a good material in terms of cost and inherent self damping characteristics, however it lacks the stiffness and control of materials like ceramic, metals and carbon - based drivers.

    The problem here is that, as humans we are subjective creatures and as such, not all value what I value as critical to a very high quality speaker and drivers. For example. some people don't value neutrality, they want a "warmer" sound. Some want "slammin' bass" over articulate accurate bass. And as such, some high end speaker companies capitalize in a market who like what they hear even if the design has inherent distortion, lacks frequency balance and has exaggerated and sometimes bloated bass. Net - driver materials matter in truly high end designs and for those that care about the attributes stated above. But for many (most?) of the market, it's meaningless.
    Not very well thought out, I’m afraid. Most (not all) audiophiles are trying to end up with a system that sounds like live music to them. If all that required was low distortion and what you term “neutrality” then we would all have the same systems (at any given price point). The obvious fact is, though, that no matter how much one spends you will not end up with a system that will be confused with live music, and even at stratospheric prices you can end up with many different systems, all excellent, none sounding the same, none which will be confused with live music, and not all of them (maybe not even the “best” of them, if there is such a thing) “neutral” in the sense you mean.
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  6. #56

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    One really comes to understand how much power is wasted as heat as an amp huffs and puffs to move a typical diaphragm in a direct radiator speaker for semi-realistic SPLs. Like you, I ain't going back. I've succumbed to the high-efficiently koolaid and its pretty darn good
    Low sensitivity/low impedance speakers are really for SS amps IMO. High sensitivity/high impedance speakers do jump to life quickly and have exciting dynamics. If your SS amp doubles its power output power at 4 ohms and they are driving speakers with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms, your amp is being pushed much harder than if it was driving high impedance/high sensitivity speakers.
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  7. #57

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    ....
    If your SS amp doubles its power output power at 4 ohms and they are driving speakers with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms, your amp is being pushed much harder than if it was driving high impedance/high sensitivity speakers.
    Absolutely nothing wrong with that! That’s why you bought such a machine. It is like when you take a sports car to the track: you make use of the entire track not just half of it. Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

  8. #58

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Absolutely nothing wrong with that! That’s why you bought such a machine. It is like when you take a sports car to the track: you make use of the entire track not just half of it. Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?
    Yeah, but you don’t drive the snot out of your sports car everyday.
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  9. #59

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Not very well thought out, I’m afraid. Most (not all) audiophiles are trying to end up with a system that sounds like live music to them. If all that required was low distortion and what you term “neutrality” then we would all have the same systems (at any given price point). The obvious fact is, though, that no matter how much one spends you will not end up with a system that will be confused with live music, and even at stratospheric prices you can end up with many different systems, all excellent, none sounding the same, none which will confused with live music, and not all of them (maybe not even the “best” of them, if there is such a thing) “neutral” in the sense you mean.
    Not very well thought out? Ha Ha, relax self - proclaimed audiophile genius.

    First, thanks for your opinion. However you missed and / or misinterpreted several points I made. Specifically - a) focusing on the OP's question WRT driver, not the complete system, you veered off topic. b) all above was my opinion, take it or leave it; it's not right or wrong or 1/2 "thought out" or not. c) Staying on the OP's topic WRT speaker driver material and what attributes I believe matter most I specifically stated, "to be fair there are also other variables". Yes, neutrality is very important but not the whole enchilada.

    In addition WRT neutrality = we would all have the the same system is ridiculous; your grossly overvaluing my comment and the effects of system complexity and component synergy.


    Not very well thought out, I'm afraid ;-)
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  10. #60
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Except for your occasional qualifier “IME” or “IMO” I think I represented your post very well Yes I went off on you a bit, and perhaps unfairly, because you do mention all the important attributes a speaker (both driver and system) should have. To date, the biggest problem I have had with speaker systems using “exotic” materials (and I realize I did not define very well what that is) for drivers has been relatively low efficiency (due to higher mass? more complex Xovers?) and IMO that makes it hard to accurately reproduce dynamics. Neutrality is a term like transparency that has probably been overused and perhaps improperly used by audio reviewers and posters in forums like this, and in the way that you used it in your post I would not agree with your premise.

    Edit: low moving mass without the stiffness and self-damping you mention are characteristics of ribbon and electrostatic drivers (certainly not exotic), and each of these types of drivers offer desirable sonic characteristics hard to achieve with other designs or materials
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  11. #61
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    Mike, I'm not sure where you read / heard that the Magico M9 uses ceramic drivers. Their drivers other than the tweeter (Be) use aluminum honeycomb core sandwiched between a graphene/carbon fiber skin.
    i cannot recall, and realize i said it was based on that 11" Accuton Ceramic woofer driver and then modified. maybe Accuton changed the membrane for Magico. there are very few high efficiency 11" woofers out there. if you have alternate information about the source of that particular 11" driver then enlighten us.

    and i could be wrong.

  12. #62
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    A short story from Munich High End 2019. I was at the other audio show, located at a hotel... Can't remember the name. I was sitting alone listening to one of the greatest system possible, the mighty magico m6, I stayed and stayed and just couldn't figure out what's wrong with it. I was so underwhelmed and bored! How could it be I asked my self, while watching other visitors coming and going, nobody stayed longer then 5 minutes. It was cruel...
    The next room I went was just mesmerising, audionote speakers playing some beautiful jazz, live recordings.. Both speakers were shoved to the far room corners. You know, it just didn't made sense, a prehistoric cabinet with paper and silk drivers in the worst position possible made Musik and emotions of such beauty. SOTA? Well no, but does it matter?!?! This room was full, and stayed full till the sun went down.

  13. #63
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    Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noam View Post
    A short story from Munich High End 2019. I was at the other audio show, located at a hotel... Can't remember the name. I was sitting alone listening to one of the greatest system possible, the mighty magico m6, I stayed and stayed and just couldn't figure out what's wrong with it. I was so underwhelmed and bored! How could it be I asked my self, while watching other visitors coming and going, nobody stayed longer then 5 minutes. It was cruel...
    The next room I went was just mesmerising, audionote speakers playing some beautiful jazz, live recordings.. Both speakers were shoved to the far room corners. You know, it just didn't made sense, a prehistoric cabinet with paper and silk drivers in the worst position possible made Musik and emotions of such beauty. SOTA? Well no, but does it matter?!?! This room was full, and stayed full till the sun went down.
    The hotel was the Marriott and the show was Munich HiFi Deluxe (not related to the proper Munich High End show). The room with the M6’s was a closet sized room run by the bozos at TotalDAC who never seemingly can get a good sounding room at any show. It was a complete disaster of a setup in a room 10 times too small for those speakers. They were also jammed into the corners and set way back because there was no room. They also had this weird plastic table in the middle of the room which was causing reflections. The room would have been too small for M2’s frankly.

    If you heard the M6’s at the Munich High End show, especially the large Soulution/Critical Mass room, you would hear how incredible these speakers can sound when properly setup. We used M6’s at The Florida Audio Expo and won best of show.

    As for the Audio Note speakers, they were definitely not my cup of tea. When I went in, the room was empty.
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  14. #64
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Yes, I have (of course) went straight to the m6 at the high end munich and was very much relieved! My point is, like you wrote earlier, it is so much more than placing some esoteric drivers in a fancy cabinet. Anyway, I learnt a good deal that evening.

  15. #65
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noam View Post
    Yes, I have (of course) went straight to the m6 at the high end munich and was very much relieved! My point is, like you wrote earlier, it is so much more than placing some esoteric drivers in a fancy cabinet. Anyway, I learnt a good deal that evening.
    Yes indeed.
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  16. #66

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    i cannot recall, and realize i said it was based on that 11" Accuton Ceramic woofer driver and then modified. maybe Accuton changed the membrane for Magico. there are very few high efficiency 11" woofers out there. if you have alternate information about the source of that particular 11" driver then enlighten us.

    and i could be wrong.
    Considering Magico prides itself on developing all drivers in house I'd be surprised if they leveraged drivers from any vendor especially for their new flagship M9. My information comes from the Magico site. The M9 - A Revelatory New Flagship Loudspeaker — Magico Loudspeakers
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  17. #67
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    It's interesting that the M9 has a rated sensitivity of 94 dB, while the A5 is 88 dB? Does the efficiency of the bigger magnets overcome the increased mass of the bigger drivers? Does the new crossover have a simpler circuit path with less heat (or other inefficiency) loss?
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  18. #68

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    All things being equal bigger drivers are usually more efficient. The area of the driver supercedes magnet size. Take the Giya G1 to G2, they use the same drivers for H, M-H and M with the only difference the woofers size and the G1 is ~2DB more efficient. Which btw has nothing to do with current requirements.
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  19. #69
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    All things being equal bigger drivers are usually more efficient. The area of the driver supercedes magnet size. Take the Giya G1 to G2, they use the same drivers for H, M-H and M with the only difference the woofers size and the G1 is ~2DB more efficient. Which btw has nothing to do with current requirements.
    Cabinet size?
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  20. #70

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Cabinet size?
    A) All things being equal bigger drivers are usually more efficient.
    B) Cabinet size will have a marginal effect if any in terms of efficiency since the standard spec to measure is 2.83V (assumes 1W with an 8 ohm load) @ 1KHz @1 meter measured on axis.
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  21. #71
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    I meant interior enclosure volume. Depending on the type of enclosure, increased volume will usually result in increased efficiency
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  22. #72

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Thanks Rob, I did understand what you meant hence my B) above (a bigger cabinet results in a larger internal volume). Again at the 1KHz specified frequency the difference is negligible.

    Not to get too off topic (which we are somewhat :-) ) but I always questioned the validity of speaker efficiency results since, in and of itself is insufficient to determine power requirements. The impedance curve, one could argue is at least as important.
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  23. #73
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    Interestingly, YG Acoustics does not use SOTA materials in its drivers. Aluminum is hardly SOTA. However, the way they manufacture their driver cones out of aluminum is absolutely SOTA. The cones are milled out of a solid block of aluminum to maximize rigidity and minimize weight. I’ve listened to the Sonja 1.2’s and 2.2’s many times and I continue to be impressed by the realistic sound they produce.

    Ken
    I think the hybrid tweeter is considered pretty SOTA though
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  24. #74
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The hotel was the Marriott and the show was Munich HiFi Deluxe (not related to the proper Munich High End show). The room with the M6’s was a closet sized room run by the bozos at TotalDAC who never seemingly can get a good sounding room at any show. It was a complete disaster of a setup in a room 10 times too small for those speakers. They were also jammed into the corners and set way back because there was no room. They also had this weird plastic table in the middle of the room which was causing reflections. The room would have been too small for M2’s frankly.

    If you heard the M6’s at the Munich High End show, especially the large Soulution/Critical Mass room, you would hear how incredible these speakers can sound when properly setup. We used M6’s at The Florida Audio Expo and won best of show.

    As for the Audio Note speakers, they were definitely not my cup of tea. When I went in, the room was empty.
    I agree those were the best sounding Magico's at the Munich show and some of the rooms at the Hotel had some really weird gear and some very very bad sound. If one listened to the M6 at the Hotel and thought that was representative of what a M6 sounded like that would be a big error. Having said that sound at shows is vary hit and miss.

  25. #75
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    Thanks Rob, I did understand what you meant hence my B) above (a bigger cabinet results in a larger internal volume). Again at the 1KHz specified frequency the difference is negligible.

    Not to get too off topic (which we are somewhat :-) ) but I always questioned the validity of speaker efficiency results since, in and of itself is insufficient to determine power requirements. The impedance curve, one could argue is at least as important.
    No doubt speaker efficiency as commonly specified is of limited use in determining amplifier power requirements. It is interesting, though, that in general the more "efficient" a speaker system the flatter its impedance curve tends to be. Not surprising, though, since these speakers will typically have simpler crossover networks and often more powerful magnets for a given driver size.
    Rob
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  26. #76

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    I think the hybrid tweeter is considered pretty SOTA though
    +1 I hope 2021 brings the new "entry" level YG speaker. If YG had an "A" series of speaker(s) it would be interesting to see what they will come out with.

    It probably won't have the billet dome tweeter but , maybe the other technologies.

  27. #77
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    I don't know how an aluminium cone would sound any different if it was pressed out of rolled sheet aluminium compared to being cut out of solid block to the same thickness. Unless the grain structure of the metal had something to do with the resulting physical properties.
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  28. #78

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    All this talk about efficiency of a speaker makes little sense to me when you isolate it from the amp.

    While efficient speakers can be driven by low power amps (tubes for example), inefficient speakers driven by powerful SS amps can also sing!

  29. #79
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by brodricj View Post
    I don't know how an aluminium cone would sound any different if it was pressed out of rolled sheet aluminium compared to being cut out of solid block to the same thickness. Unless the grain structure of the metal had something to do with the resulting physical properties.
    problem is the tweeter isnt flat

  30. #80
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by brodricj View Post
    I don't know how an aluminium cone would sound any different if it was pressed out of rolled sheet aluminium compared to being cut out of solid block to the same thickness. Unless the grain structure of the metal had something to do with the resulting physical properties.
    Hi Brodric,

    Yes, the the speaker cone milled out of a block of cast aluminum has very different physical properties compared to a speaker cone pressed out of aluminum. It is far more rigid than a pressed piece of aluminum of the same thickness. And the difference in sound quality is significant.

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  31. #81

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    Hi Brodric,

    Yes, the the speaker cone milled out of a block of cast aluminum has very different physical properties compared to a speaker cone pressed out of aluminum. It is far more rigid than a pressed piece of aluminum of the same thickness. And the difference in sound quality is significant.

    Ken
    I can understand how there would be a difference.

    Take the case of steel, for example, cold rolled, cold drawn or hot rolled. They are all made of steel but they have different properties and uses.

  32. #82

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    Hi Brodric,

    Yes, the the speaker cone milled out of a block of cast aluminum has very different physical properties compared to a speaker cone pressed out of aluminum. It is far more rigid than a pressed piece of aluminum of the same thickness. And the difference in sound quality is significant.

    Ken
    I'm not sure I agree. If the material is the same stock and the difference is the process - CNC versus pressed how does that affect the end resulting driver cone? Unless there is excessive stresses placed during the stamping process that, maybe affects the raw material? My gut (and experience) tells me because of their specific application they employ CNC because of the limitations in pressing where CNC is virtually limitless. The added benefit is marketing goodness since milling from a block sounds more exotic and "better".
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  33. #83
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    you can press a tweeter yes, but not a billet dome.
    have a look at the precision as well

  34. #84

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Can I ask why can't you press a dome? If you had the appropriate tool why not? Do you believe it can't due to the precision / tight tolerances required?
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    Considering Magico prides itself on developing all drivers in house I'd be surprised if they leveraged drivers from any vendor especially for their new flagship M9. My information comes from the Magico site. The M9 - A Revelatory New Flagship Loudspeaker — Magico Loudspeakers
    the 11" Magico bass driver (2 per tower) has lot's of common design attributes to this Accuton 11" bass driver (of which there are 4 of in each of my speakers).

    Accuton S280-6-282 11" Sandwich Cone Woofer

    likely not an accident. my MM7 passive towers are 97db efficient; if they only had 2 of these drivers they would be 94db efficient. and the M9's just happen to be 94db efficient. imagine that.

    find another 11" woofer that covers 30hz to 250hz that is 92db efficient. you won't find one. only this one. which is why Magico choose it. then they modified it. nothing nefarious about it. i can tell you that no dynamic driver speaker can do mid bass like my speakers. and this driver is key to that. no crossover in the power range of the music. like a planar. with 4 there is little driver excursion. quite the effect. and with high efficiency you get ease in the amplifier. all around magical. Magico.

    i've had my speakers for 8 years. so long before the M9's were even a twinkle in Alon's eye. if these 11" Magico drivers did not begin life as Accutons, then Magico certainly used the Accuton's as design inspiration.

  36. #86

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    the 11" Magico bass driver (2 per tower) has lot's of common design attributes to this Accuton 11" bass driver (of which there are 4 of in each of my speakers).

    Accuton S280-6-282 11" Sandwich Cone Woofer

    likely not an accident. my MM7 passive towers are 97db efficient; if they only had 2 of these drivers they would be 94db efficient. and the M9's just happen to be 94db efficient. imagine that.

    find another 11" woofer that covers 30hz to 250hz that is 92db efficient. you won't find one. only this one. which is why Magico choose it. then they modified it. nothing nefarious about it. i can tell you that no dynamic driver speaker can do mid bass like my speakers. and this driver is key to that. no crossover in the power range of the music. like a planar. with 4 there is little driver excursion. quite the effect. and with high efficiency you get ease in the amplifier. all around magical. Magico.

    i've had my speakers for 8 years. so long before the M9's were even a twinkle in Alon's eye. if these 11" Magico drivers did not begin life as Accutons, then Magico certainly used the Accuton's as design inspiration.
    First off, based on your link that 11" ceramic driver is ~91DB efficient being rare - here are a few others that have the same sensitivity across the same frequency range which, to be frank 30 - 250Hz is nothing extraordinary: My previous speaker the Usher BE20s driver is the last one FYI.
    Scan-Speak 28W/4878T-01 Revelator 11" Woofer- 4 ohm
    Eton 11-212 Symphony II - 11" Kevlar Woofer

    Second, your passive towers and the M9s efficiency is not comprised solely of mid woofers. The 94 DB is a complete speaker impedance value so your supposition that the "M9s just happen to be 94db efficient. imagine that." doesn't hold water.

    Third - You comment about, "No dynamic driver speaker can do mid bass like my speakers" is conceit (as you looove to bring up your system in every post) and is your opinion. And while I'm sure it sounds great is it the best mid bass ever?, Ha ha, it's a big planet my friend and the ultra speaker bar keeps climbing. In fact, I recall an owner of MM7s selling his to have EA upgrade above the older and smaller MM7s. Then there's the big Gryphons, Rockport Arrakis with complementary subs, the Von Schweikert Ultra 11s, the Infinity Vs and, well you get the point.

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  37. #87
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    the 11" Magico bass driver (2 per tower) has lot's of common design attributes to this Accuton 11" bass driver (of which there are 4 of in each of my speakers).

    Accuton S280-6-282 11" Sandwich Cone Woofer

    likely not an accident. my MM7 passive towers are 97db efficient; if they only had 2 of these drivers they would be 94db efficient. and the M9's just happen to be 94db efficient. imagine that.

    find another 11" woofer that covers 30hz to 250hz that is 92db efficient. you won't find one. only this one. which is why Magico choose it. then they modified it. nothing nefarious about it. i can tell you that no dynamic driver speaker can do mid bass like my speakers. and this driver is key to that. no crossover in the power range of the music. like a planar. with 4 there is little driver excursion. quite the effect. and with high efficiency you get ease in the amplifier. all around magical. Magico.

    i've had my speakers for 8 years. so long before the M9's were even a twinkle in Alon's eye. if these 11" Magico drivers did not begin life as Accutons, then Magico certainly used the Accuton's as design inspiration.
    Hi Mike,

    Reading Magico’s and Accuton’s description of their 11 inch woofers, it appears that Magico has used Accuton’s basket, neodymium magnets and titanium voice coil in their M9 speaker. The description is identical word for word. However, the speaker cones on the M9’s are designed, manufactured and unique to Magico as they utilize a carbon-graphene/aluminum honeycomb core/carbon-graphene sandwich proprietary design. This is a significant differentiator from Accuton’s ceramic sandwich speaker cones.

    The M9 - A Revelatory New Flagship Loudspeaker — Magico Loudspeakers

    Best,
    Ken
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  38. #88
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Elberoth has made several posts in years past where he was able to identify the manufacturers of various driver models used in Magico speakers. As a the driving force behind Europe's second largest audio show, he is in a position of familiarity with a number of key high end audio component vendors. It seems that Magico has used a variety of driver manufacturers over the years. Magico's primary driver innovations have come in the cone elements (Magico's) used to complete the drivers used in their speakers. They may have also had their vendors make other custom alterations to achieve their goals.

  39. #89
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    I sure do like the midrange on the MBL 101’s and 101 Xtremes! I would definitely say their drivers are SOTA.

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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I sure do like the midrange on the MBL 101’s and 101 Xtremes! I would definitely say their drivers are SOTA.

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  41. #91

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    Hi Mike,

    Reading Magico’s and Accuton’s description of their 11 inch woofers, it appears that Magico has used Accuton’s basket, neodymium magnets and titanium voice coil in their M9 speaker. The description is identical word for word. However, the speaker cones on the M9’s are designed, manufactured and unique to Magico as they utilize a carbon-graphene/aluminum honeycomb core/carbon-graphene sandwich proprietary design. This is a significant differentiator from Accuton’s ceramic sandwich speaker cones.

    The M9 - A Revelatory New Flagship Loudspeaker — Magico Loudspeakers

    Best,
    Ken
    Looks like they might have used the basket and voice coil and that's it. EA used the stock 120mm magnet while Magico doubled it with, "a second matching magnet on top for complete control of voice coil movement". For the cone EA used the stock ceramic and Magico uses their own Nano-Tec cones with Aluminum honeycomb core. Also, if the picture on Magico’s site is correct, it looks like a completely different driver and possibly nothing is leveraged from Accuton.
    Accuton (EA stock driver)
    s280-6-282.jpg

    Magico (partial to no leverage from Accuton)
    AHC+COne.jpg
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  42. #92

    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    ... so now i had ceramic drivers from 30hz to 3khz. wow and double wow. no dynamic driver speaker i have heard can do what the MM7's do in these frequencies. ceramic is inherently stiff and light, and retains linearity and lack of distortion.
    I´m with you

    In 2015 i said here about the Marten Coltrane and ceramic drivers

    ULTIMATE SESSIONS NO PORTO

    Several brands have experimented with most diverse materials in the pursuit of greater rigidity and lightness of the cones, often looking for an opening that ends up sounding artificial. Among others, Focal has followed its own line and Monitor Audio (among others) is well known for its projects using metal. In the past audioshow I heard Raidho for the first time with their ceramic cones and the sound didn't quite convince me. In this material, only Thiel left me with a good memory. Still, I continued to prefer the “card” (and its variants or composites). But in this second contact with Marten, did I confirm the naturalness of the ceramic drivers used lend sound reproduction. They give the sound an opening that never sounds artificial, a clarity that never outshines. The timbres are therefore the most natural that I have ever heard.


    Unfortunately they are not for my wallet

  43. #93
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    I just noticed this speaker system, which may be trying to combine most of the "exotic" driver materials into one system
    Rob
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  44. #94
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    HG Wells Griffin model??

  45. #95
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Sorry, something happened to the link that was meant to be included?

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  46. #96
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Sorry, something happened to the link that was meant to be included?

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    Got it this time

  47. #97
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Maybe. If you go to ASR then all you need is to find a speaker with some good spins and a decent modern class d amp, any dac will do as they all measure within our hearing ability. A sota system shouldn't cost more than a few thousand dollars, the problem with you audiophiles is you let your ears fool you.
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  48. #98
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001 View Post
    Driver materials do matter – at least in this designer’s opinion. The video shows analysis for two mid range drivers, an ultra-rigid carbon-fiber/balsa core design vs. “a very expensive paper driver cone that is employed in some very high-end speaker designs.”


    Source: “The Truth About Pistonic Driver Cones”, The Truth About Pistonic Driver Cones | Vandersteen Audio Accessed 20 Dec 2020.
    How does it look with xover applied limiting out of bandwidth distortion ..?

  49. #99
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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    According to Richard, his speakers are time and phase coherent. I assume he would know. I adjusted my post to reflect this.

    Ken
    He uses first order slopes( phase ) and shaped baffle alignment (Time) , hence his phase/Time comments ...


    Regards

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    Re: Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    No doubt speaker efficiency as commonly specified is of limited use in determining amplifier power requirements. It is interesting, though, that in general the more "efficient" a speaker system the flatter its impedance curve tends to be. Not surprising, though, since these speakers will typically have simpler crossover networks and often more powerful magnets for a given driver size.
    Speaker efficiency is very rarely specified , speaker sensitivity is what is mostly given in specs ..


    Regards

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Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

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