Thread: Calling Avantgarde Duo XD Owners

My Duo XDs have just arrived at last and I’m struggling to get them to sound good.

I’m sure this will happen in time as they bed in and I get the hang of the Settings that can be made on the back panel.

At present their sound is not a match to my pre-Omega Duos from about 2006, so I’m hoping you may be able to help me to get them singing!

OK, where do we begin? I’ve placed them in an established favoured position for Duos and they are toed-in so they face directly towards the listening position.

There’s about 9’6” between the speakers (tweeter centres) and about 13’6” from the speakers to my listening position. They are tilted forward a little as suggested in the Owner’s Manual so the tops of the bass cabinets are just visible.

OK, so far so good, although I’d welcome suggestions for subtle changes regarding speaker positioning. Incidentally there are no nearby walls – the speakers are effectively mid-room with 12-15 ft behind them. See my room layout sketch and rather poor Day 1 photo.

Next are the settings that the back panel offers:

The Factory-set Volume was 8dB - adjustable using the Up and Down buttons – I’ve upped this to 10dB. I don’t need excessive bass but this seems better than default. I suspect I’ll have to up this further, but I’d appreciate your views.

Then there’s Configuration. Default is Setting 00 with 0dB low EQ and 0 change to XO frequency. I’ve left this with those default settings as I guess AG should know what’s best regarding the XO frequency.

Experimental changes to Setting 12 for example (+3dB and -30Hz) don’t over excite me but neither does the result sound worse. What Configuration settings do you find works best?

Have you used the DSP software with a calibrated mic and AGs offer to examine and deliberate on the readings? If so, did this make any significant improvement? My experience with various DSP systems has not been encouraging so far. In any event, I believe that DSP is best done long before the DAC to avoid analogue to digital and back again to analogue - so perhaps best not done in the speakers.

I appreciate room acoustics makes these setting rather dependent on circumstances, but I’d appreciate pointers to what you find best and also links to threads here (or elsewhere) where this subject has been discussed.

Many thanks

Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

My Duo XDs have just arrived at last and I’m struggling to get them to sound good.

I’m sure this will happen in time as they bed in and I get the hang of the Settings that can be made on the back panel.

At present their sound is not a match to my pre-Omega Duos from about 2006, so I’m hoping you may be able to help me to get them singing!

OK, where do we begin? I’ve placed them in an established favoured position for Duos and they are toed-in so they face directly towards the listening position.

There’s about 9’6” between the speakers (tweeter centres) and about 13’6” from the speakers to my listening position. They are tilted forward a little as suggested in the Owner’s Manual so the tops of the bass cabinets are just visible.

OK, so far so good, although I’d welcome suggestions for subtle changes regarding speaker positioning. Incidentally there are no nearby walls – the speakers are effectively mid-room with 12-15 ft behind them. See my room layout sketch and rather poor Day 1 photo.

Next are the settings that the back panel offers:

The Factory-set Volume was 8dB - adjustable using the Up and Down buttons – I’ve upped this to 10dB. I don’t need excessive bass but this seems better than default. I suspect I’ll have to up this further, but I’d appreciate your views.

Then there’s Configuration. Default is Setting 00 with 0dB low EQ and 0 change to XO frequency. I’ve left this with those default settings as I guess AG should know what’s best regarding the XO frequency.

Experimental changes to Setting 12 for example (+3dB and -30Hz) don’t over excite me but neither does the result sound worse. What Configuration settings do you find works best?

Have you used the DSP software with a calibrated mic and AGs offer to examine and deliberate on the readings? If so, did this make any significant improvement? My experience with various DSP systems has not been encouraging so far. In any event, I believe that DSP is best done long before the DAC to avoid analogue to digital and back again to analogue - so perhaps best not done in the speakers.

I appreciate room acoustics makes these setting rather dependent on circumstances, but I’d appreciate pointers to what you find best and also links to threads here (or elsewhere) where this subject has been discussed.

Many thanks

Peter

Peter, setting up the AG’s properly requires the dealers help. The complexity of the software (we received formal training on) is really needed. That being said, the German dealers and AG folks tend to voice for flat. I’m not a fan of that. I like a little meat with my potatoes and always add the appropriate slopes for the room. My customers LOVE my AG voicing. Years of owning them at home helps!

I wish I could help, but the room is the first thing I would need to measure. Then I need to be sitting in the listening chair and adjusting - for hours!

That being said, don’t voice them too much until you have 150 hours on them. The bass drivers change dramatically.

For now, they will sound thin. Voicing is required to put some meat on them bones.


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Originally Posted by puroagave

did you download the app off the Avantgarde site? Id start there. Its easier to hear adjustments from your listening position using a laptop than going back and forth to the back panel then listening chair. They also offer a service for baseline settings by you providing room dimensions. I suppose you can flatten the bass settings and use an outboard DSP processor. I think Avantgarde made the choice of not going that route for owners that use analog sources not wanting it corrupted by an A/d>d/a conversion. AFAIK the only input is the full-range high-level signal coming off your power amp that feeds active bass module, the how they are on my Uno Fino XDs

Hi and thanks for replying. With difficulty I've just downloaded the AG XD software - no thanks to Windows who wanted me to reject it as likely to harm my PC.

Anyway it's now downloaded but it can't see any "Units", presumably loudspeakers. I guess each has to be connected to my router or by USB to my PC. Do both need to be connected? What a pain as I have no spare router sockets, nor long Ethernet or USB cables. Why no wi-fi I wonder? Any other suggestions or do I have to buy a router extender and long cables? Thanks. Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Hi and thanks for replying. With difficulty I've just downloaded the AG XD software - no thanks to Windows who wanted me to reject it as likely to harm my PC.

Anyway it's now downloaded but it can't see any "Units", presumably loudspeakers. I guess each has to be connected to my router or by USB to my PC. Do both need to be connected? What a pain as I have no spare router sockets, nor long Ethernet or USB cables. Why no wi-fi I wonder? Any other suggestions or do I have to buy a router extender and long cables? Thanks. Peter

Where is your dealer?

Connect both speakers via Ethernet to your switch/router (same network as your laptop). Launch the software. It will see both speakers. One window will overlap the other, so move it around the screen.


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Originally Posted by Mike

Peter, setting up the AG’s properly requires the dealers help. The complexity of the software (we received formal training on) is really needed. That being said, the German dealers and AG folks tend to voice for flat. I’m not a fan of that. I like a little meat with my potatoes and always add the appropriate slopes for the room. My customers LOVE my AG voicing. Years of owning them at home helps!

I wish I could help, but the room is the first thing I would need to measure. Then I need to be sitting in the listening chair and adjusting - for hours!

That being said, don’t voice them too much until you have 150 hours on them. The bass drivers change dramatically.

For now, they will sound thin. Voicing is required to put some meat on them bones.

Thanks Mike. Unfortunately I'm a few thousand miles from you so I doubt you'll be visiting in a rush!

Yes, I appreciate they need a settling in period and I'll be patient. I wonder if you have any initial thoughts about my room - see attachment to my initial post.

When I first moved here my Unos (2003) sounded less good than in my London flat with a 5-sided room of 320 sq ft and 10 ft ceilings. A very good room for hi-fi. Here my new room was initially poor but extra furnishings and carpets in particular have improved things hugely and the Unos were much happier. The Duos (2006) bought last year are even better, but the Duo XDs still need work to sing as I'm sure they will.

I guess you've seen my other reply about the XD software problems where I suspect I need to buy long cables and/or router extender for extra sockets. Again any suggestions appreciated. Thanks. Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Thanks Mike. Unfortunately I'm a few thousand miles from you so I doubt you'll be visiting in a rush!

Yes, I appreciate they need a settling in period and I'll be patient. I wonder if you have any initial thoughts about my room - see attachment to my initial post.

When I first moved here my Unos (2003) sounded less good than in my London flat with a 5-sided room of 320 sq ft and 10 ft ceilings. A very good room for hi-fi. Here my new room was initially poor but extra furnishings and carpets in particular have improved things hugely and the Unos were much happier. The Duos (2006) bought last year are even better, but the Duo XDs still need work to sing as I'm sure they will.

I guess you've seen my other reply about the XD software problems where I suspect I need to buy long cables and/or router extender for extra sockets. Again any suggestions appreciated. Thanks. Peter

Peter, I’m not your dealer. Who is your dealer in the UK or did you buy these used?

There are two guys who bought Duo XD’s used here in the U.S. and pulled their hair out trying to configure the speakers and eventually sold after a month or two. This is not a speaker to buy without expert help.


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Hi,

Beautiful speakers!

Do you have a laptop? I used my laptop which has USB ports and ran a USB cable to each speaker from my listening chair. I admit i adjusted by ear but I had fun doing it and you can create different settings for different music or amps etc. XD is next level for adjustability. AG has many preset EQ's . I do agree finding a dealer would greatly shorten your learning curb. If memory serves me London has a few dealers in the vicinity.

Originally Posted by Etunes

Hi,

Beautiful speakers!

Do you have a laptop? I used my laptop which has USB ports and ran a USB cable to each speaker from my listening chair. I admit i adjusted by ear but I had fun doing it and you can create different settings for different music or amps etc. XD is next level for adjustability. AG has many preset EQ's . I do agree finding a dealer would greatly shorten your learning curb. If memory serves me London has a few dealers in the vicinity.

I echo his opinion.


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Originally Posted by Mike

Peter, I’m not your dealer. Who is your dealer in the UK or did you buy these used?

There are two guys who bought Duo XD’s used here in the U.S. and pulled their hair out trying to configure the speakers and eventually sold after a month or two. This is not a speaker to buy without expert help.


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Mike. You’re right, you are not my dealer and I shouldn’t be asking you for advice. However you did kindly reply to my post that was addressed to Duo XD owners.

You worry me when you claim that buyers of used Duo XDs have quickly abandoned them as too difficult to get sounding right. If this is the case, it must seriously affect the resale value of XDs on the open market – by contrast with older AGs that retain their values exceptionally well. My 2003 Unos sold easily last year for precisely what I paid for them new 16 years earlier.

It must surely also make potential buyers of new XDs think twice, as they may find it difficult to re-sell their speakers for a good price after a few years. I wonder what Holger Fromme would make of what you say about configuring XDs and their attractiveness or otherwise on the used market?

I sincerely hope you are over-stating the difficulty of setting up these great speakers by owners themselves. Maybe the two guys you say abandoned their used XD purchases were simply incompetent. I hope so!

AGs have always needed care in setting up and have more adjustment options than most speakers. I know a little about Avantgarde speakers as I provided the only AG demonstration facility in London for a number of years. However the XD’s setting options are new to me – hence my reason for initiating this thread. Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Mike. You’re right, you are not my dealer and I shouldn’t be asking you for advice. However you did kindly reply to my post that was addressed to Duo XD owners.

You worry me when you claim that buyers of used Duo XDs have quickly abandoned them as too difficult to get sounding right. If this is the case, it must seriously affect the resale value of XDs on the open market – by contrast with older AGs that retain their values exceptionally well. My 2003 Unos sold easily last year for precisely what I paid for them new 16 years earlier.

It must surely also make potential buyers of new XDs think twice, as they may find it difficult to re-sell their speakers for a good price after a few years. I wonder what Holger Fromme would make of what you say about configuring XDs and their attractiveness or otherwise on the used market?

I sincerely hope you are over-stating the difficulty of setting up these great speakers by owners themselves. Maybe the two guys you say abandoned their used XD purchases were simply incompetent. I hope so!

AGs have always needed care in setting up and have more adjustment options than most speakers. I know a little about Avantgarde speakers as I provided the only AG demonstration facility in London for a number of years. However the XD’s setting options are new to me – hence my reason for initiating this thread. Peter

No, to clarify, the two guys who bought Duo XD’s USED and without warranty from overseas, will not get any support.

Dealers must go through the training. So, buying new is the best way to fully optimize your investment. Proper XD configuration is required. Any used XD’s we have sold we have also supported for config.

So, I will assume you bought them used?

Feel free to tell Holger what his number one dealer in America said. He knows exactly why there are issues with speakers being sold around the world into other parts of the world and then, no support. If people buy from a dealer in their country, they won’t have any issues and they will fully optimize their investment.

The bottom line is that there is a lot that goes into configuring them properly: your room, your equipment, your musical tastes and more. It’s something we are trained to measure and configure for AG XD’s.

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Originally Posted by puroagave

IIRC, Hear Here's Duos are new and were ordered to spec, in which case the dealer that arranged the sale should be involved with the set-up. I get what you're saying Mike, and it would be foolhardy for anyone to expect after sales assistance from a dealer they didn't buy the said unit from. moreover, then come on public forum to slag a product because you didn't receive instruction or dealer after-care.

If one is so inclined, Avantgarde has a member only section on their site that requires registration and proof of ownership (ser number) and you're in. The help is there if you need it but its not the same as a dealer coming to your home and spending the time it takes to get them right.

Agreed, and I would help if I could, but the dealer of record needs to be really involved.

My guess, is that he may have purchased them from a dealer outside the UK or the dealer hasn’t had the necessary training.


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Originally Posted by Mike

Agreed, and I would help if I could, but the dealer of record needs to be really involved.

My guess, is that he may have purchased them from a dealer outside the UK or the dealer hasn’t had the necessary training.


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Mike - You have to bear in mind that the EU is rather akin to the United States when it comes to trade. I'm sure citizens from any of the US states can visit your store and buy Avantgarde or anything else without warranty or other problems - or even buy by mail order from you.

Citizens from any EU country can do precisely the same. Free trade, free movement of goods and other treaties exist that permit any EU citizen to buy anything from anywhere in the EU without hindrance or imposition of duties, taxes etc if they choose to take the goods across borders. As it happens, I have homes in two EU countries, so I am regularly crossing borders with goods bought in another part of the EU. Despite the fact that the UK crazily voted to leave the EU, nothing changes until midnight on 31 December 2020.

My dealer is very experienced with Avantgarde and has installed many systems, but I've not yet asked him to visit me in view of the distance and Coronavirus, a problem we seem to take rather more seriously than the US by all accounts.

As I say, I'm familiar with the brand having been an owner since 2003 and having acted as the only AG demonstration centre in London for a number of years in the past. However I don't have access to AG dealers' measurement mics and software and I'm just starting to learn how the XD software works. I wouldn't want to own any equipment I couldn't get working in as good a way as is possible without relying on assistance from others, though I appreciate that some individuals (Jim Smith for example and probably yourself) have a particular skill in squeezing the last drop of performance out of users' systems.

Asking existing owners how they have their Duos set up is nothing that any dealer should be concerned about, any more than asking which brand of tubes other forum users find works best in their amplifiers. I didn't ask for your help, but you chose to reply to my original post, so communication was initiated by you - and that was appreciated. Other forum users have also offered suggestions, both on the forum and by PM, and these again are greatly appreciated.

From tomorrow, I'll be playing catch-up as my long USB cables will arrive and by then my speakers should have a good number of hours use to improve their sound.

I’m looking forward to many more years of musical enjoyment, thanks in large part to Avantgarde. Peter

Sounds good. I hope he gets to visit you soon and help.


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Peter, Using the XD software is not complex or frustrating at all. And it's much better to play around with different settings from your computer than from the rear of the speaker. Most people probably get great results from from minor adjustments. And if your old AG's sounded good in your room, your new one's will be that and better. I would also let them break in before doing much.

I went to an extreme and hired a pro audio guy to come in and measure my room and adjust the XD software for best bass response. The XD software is powerful but not as robust as a pro audio eq, but I got incredibly helpful assistance from Armin at AG in adjusting the system at their end so that the guy here could do some more extensive manipulations.

As far as listening position goes, I resisted listening close for a long time and finally settled on around 10'. Closer in is far more immersive. I would not point the horns directly at your ears! Try pointing them just outside your shoulders. Also, try Jim Smith's ratio which he says has worked for him with multitudes of different AG setups:

That is, where the distance from tweeter to tweeter membrane is "X" and the distance from tweeter to ear is "Y". "X" should be 83% of "Y." So, if your tweeter to ear distance is 10', your tweeter to tweeter distance will be 8.3'. I've found myself moving in closer than this, but definitely a good place to start imo.

Originally Posted by Willco

Peter, Using the XD software is not complex or frustrating at all. And it's much better to play around with different settings from your computer than from the rear of the speaker. Most people probably get great results from from minor adjustments. And if your old AG's sounded good in your room, your new one's will be that and better. I would also let them break in before doing much.

I went to an extreme and hired a pro audio guy to come in and measure my room and adjust the XD software for best bass response. The XD software is powerful but not as robust as a pro audio eq, but I got incredibly helpful assistance from Armin at AG in adjusting the system at their end so that the guy here could do some more extensive manipulations.

As far as listening position goes, I resisted listening close for a long time and finally settled on around 10'. Closer in is far more immersive. I would not point the horns directly at your ears! Try pointing them just outside your shoulders. Also, try Jim Smith's ratio which he says has worked for him with multitudes of different AG setups:

That is, where the distance from tweeter to tweeter membrane is "X" and the distance from tweeter to ear is "Y". "X" should be 83% of "Y." So, if your tweeter to ear distance is 10', your tweeter to tweeter distance will be 8.3'. I've found myself moving in closer than this, but definitely a good place to start imo.

Thanks Will, that’s all most helpful. I now have long USB cables and have been playing around with XD software settings, though I’ve not changed anything apart from Gain - increased from 8 to 10 dB. It's enlightening to hear the changes in sound when the type of crossover is changed, eg Butterworth 24 dB (default) to Bessel 12 dB. Once the speakers have a few more hours I'll do critical listening before deciding on changes that I feel are worthwhile to store.

I'm planning on getting an amp with Dirac Live and a calibrated microphone. This will be very helpful in seeing where the speaker / room response curve differs from straight. Then I'll use the XD software to iron out these anolilies as much as possible. I'd prefer to use XD software for room equalisation than Dirac as my experience of other room correction software (Anthem, RoomPerfect and MARS) has not been great. Some of the "life" of music is lost when this software interferes with the original signal. Hopefully not so with XD.

Meanwhile the 83% ratio is rather wider than I use, partly because the speakers would be more in the position of my old Duos (see initial post photo), so they would be an obstruction to movement around my room. However I will be moving more towards this 83% when the old Duos are removed and the new ones moved out a little and forward a little too.

You have Mezzos I believe - how are the feet constructed? They appear to be shallow domes but it's difficult to see from photos and sketches on AGs website. Are they soft or hard? I ask because I don't want to have my Duos on the tall spikes they come with. The speakers are too tall so they need to be tilted forward to meet the setup suggestions in the Manual and this looks bad from the side in particular. Also I want a minimum of vibration and noise to be transmitted through my floor to downstairs neighbours and spikes are far from ideal!

Yes, Armin is most helpful. I'm in touch with him. Peter

Agreed re Armin