Shunyata Launches - ALTAIRA GROUNDING SYSTEM!!

**stevebythebay** · September 13, 2022, 05:38 PM

I don't believe they did so. I know only that the system that they set up for their own testing, which I was privy to a few weeks back, was cordoned off to keep out the "riffraff", so to speak. It was a nice test environment using some high end gear fed by a Roon Nucleus. The only thing I was certain of was that they believed strongly that the Spectral mono blocks were off limits for Altaira. I don't think they had any idea that trying to bring in the preamp would be problematic. That's why testing is so, so important in this arena. At least we discovered this particular situation so other Spectral customers won't need to. Or if they dare try, they'll at the very least, take caution.

**ack** · September 13, 2022, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by stevebythebay

The only thing I was certain of was that they believed strongly that the Spectral mono blocks were off limits for Altaira. I don't think they had any idea that trying to bring in the preamp would be problematic.

Thanks. The amps have a couple of internal grounds, so this is not surprising. Spectral have been working on their own ground approach for over a decade now - or so I am told

**stevebythebay** · September 13, 2022, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by ack

Thanks. The amps have a couple of internal grounds, so this is not surprising. Spectral have been working on their own ground approach for over a decade now - or so I am told

Guess you've got an insider or two at Spectral. Or you've peeked inside the amps. Anyway, that's consistent with its behavior. I've typically found that when components are internally grounded, they do not use 3 prong connections to the wall receptacle at all. But then this may simply be done for absolute safety. Yet it usually creates problems - in the form of the rather nasty hum we get. Yet these are, after all, very high bandwidth devices, probably capable of reproducing the original Big Bang given the right atmospherics 😂

**stevebythebay** · September 14, 2022, 03:50 PM

Here's what my dealer has told me: The grounding system in the 500 Anniversary mono blocks is VERY specific. There are several ways to implement this circuit if it is required. You are currently hooked up for optimum grounding as your system, when installed, did not exhibit any grounding issues.

**mdp632** · September 14, 2022, 04:48 PM

The bright side is that 2 out of 3 Spectral dealers in the US are also Shunyata dealers. So, I guess they won't be pairing Spectral + Shunyata. At least this grounding system.

It's a shame MIT doesn't have a more competitive Power Product. That plus the recently released 2C3D power cables might be more ideal for Spectral's system approach.

Even the Spectral manuals recommend (but don’t require) MIT power products.

Anyways, will be interesting how this Altaira competes with other grounding solutions.

**Mike** · October 29, 2022, 05:07 PM

In Stereo with Mike & Rick - Episode 6 - Shunyata ALTAIRA Grounding System with Caelin Gabriel - YouTube

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**GSOphile** · October 30, 2022, 08:23 AM

Mike, are top Luxman self grounding gear (e.g., D-10X, M-10X) that don't have power cord ground pins able to take advantage of this technology?

**audio.bill** · October 30, 2022, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by GSOphile

Mike, are top Luxman self grounding gear (e.g., D-10X, M-10X) that don't have power cord ground pins able to take advantage of this technology?

Their power amps and preamps like the M-10X and C-900u have a signal ground connection binding post, but the D-10X doesn't appear to.

**Mike** · October 30, 2022, 10:32 AM

Waiting on official word before responding.

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**Mike** · October 30, 2022, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by GSOphile

Mike, are top Luxman self grounding gear (e.g., D-10X, M-10X) that don't have power cord ground pins able to take advantage of this technology?

“If they don’t have the IEC ground pin then they cannot be grounded by way of Altaira, at least conventionally. The continuity work sheet has this ground pin question as one of the first. So for now, Luxman is a no.”

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**johnthomas** · October 30, 2022, 01:06 PM

Mike, just curious were you able to compare the sound of Everest CGS grounding post to components vs. Altaira CGS to components? I’m assuming the Altaira would be more beneficial.

**Mike** · October 30, 2022, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by johnthomas

Mike, just curious were you able to compare the sound of Everest CGS grounding post to components vs. Altaira CGS to components? I’m assuming the Altaira would be more beneficial.

No. We asked this question and Caelin indicated the use of the Altaira would yield superior results due to the individual isolation, etc. We’ve been using Altaira since February and every time we A/B with it in and out of the system, we are shaking our heads. One experiment we want to try is tapping into the ground lug on the Fyne Audio speakers.

More…

“Big differences in filtering and isolation between grounded devices. The Everest has one GP-NR for all ground posts, Altairas have one for each ground post.”

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**MPW** · October 30, 2022, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

No. We asked this question and Caelin indicated the use of the Altaira would yield superior results due to the individual isolation, etc. We’ve been using Altaira since February and every time we A/B with it in and out of the system, we are shaking our heads. One experiment we want to try is tapping into the ground lug on the Fyne Audio speakers.

More…

“Big differences in filtering and isolation between grounded devices. The Everest has one GP-NR for all ground posts, Altairas have one for each ground post.”

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Keep us informed on how the Fyne test goes. Very interested to hear the results.

**brodricj** · October 30, 2022, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

...We’ve been using Altaira since February and every time we A/B with it in and out of the system, we are shaking our heads...

The A/B referred to was A = Altaira and B = nothing, or B = Everest GP-NR?

**Mike** · October 30, 2022, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by brodricj

The A/B referred to was A = Altaira and B = nothing, or B = Everest GP-NR?

No. We don’t ground to the Everest now that we have Altaira. We compare with Altaira Vs no grounding.

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**brodricj** · October 30, 2022, 08:16 PM

But the wiring diagram in the Altaira documentation shows it being grounded to the power distributor.

**Mike** · October 30, 2022, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by brodricj

But the wiring diagram in the Altaira documentation shows it being grounded to the power distributor.

That we do, but we don’t skip the Altaira and just ground to the Everest.

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**brodricj** · October 30, 2022, 08:40 PM

So in practice you have found that Altaira not connected to Everest sounds better than connected to Everest GP-NR? If so that would seem to fly in the face of the wiring diagram.

**Mike** · October 30, 2022, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by brodricj

So in practice you have found that Altaira not connected to Everest sounds better than connected to Everest GP-NR? If so that would seem to fly in the face of the wiring diagram.

You’re so confused.

We always ground Altaira to Everest. What I was saying was we never did equipment to Everest without Altaira in the middle.

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**GSOphile** · October 30, 2022, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

“If they don’t have the IEC ground pin then they cannot be grounded by way of Altaira, at least conventionally. The continuity work sheet has this ground pin question as one of the first. So for now, Luxman is a no.”

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So this is true even though the M-10X does have a signal ground post? Interesting.

**brodricj** · October 31, 2022, 05:13 AM

So the short story is: signal grounds do not get connected to Everest. Component signal grounds get connected to Altaira, and Altaira gets connected to Everest.

**Mike** · October 31, 2022, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by brodricj

So the short story is: signal grounds do not get connected to Everest. Component signal grounds get connected to Altaira, and Altaira gets connected to Everest.

Best to read the manual.

So there is no confusion, the above is incorrect.

In just a simple, single Altaira system, Shunyata recommends the chassis unit first for these single hub systems, regardless of the types of electronics.

Components to Chassis Altaira Hub. Chassis Altaira Hub to power conditioner ground.

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**SCAudiophile** · October 31, 2022, 01:06 PM

This statement "signal grounds do not get connected to Everest. Component signal grounds get connected to Altaira, and Altaira gets connected to Everest."

As shown is not incorrect.

It should however read:

"signal grounds do not get connected to Everest. Component signal grounds get connected to Altaira SG version, and Altaira gets connected to Everest through lug #7 which is labeled 'CGC' ".

This configuration is shown in the diagram:

Screenshot_20221031-130510_Photos.jpg

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**BobK** · November 2, 2022, 07:11 PM

Hi Mike,

Just watched your awesome interview with Caelin on What's Best Forum. Great job by all parties! Thank you for doing this.

**Mike** · November 2, 2022, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by BobK

Hi Mike,

Just watched your awesome interview with Caelin on What's Best Forum. Great job by all parties! Thank you for doing this.

Thank you. Let me know if that’s something you want to discuss further.

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**BobK** · November 2, 2022, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Thank you. Let me know if that’s something you want to discuss further.

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Of course, we will...I see a couple of Signal Grounds in my future!

**stevebythebay** · November 15, 2022, 09:01 PM

So, I've had the Altaira CG at home for a month or thereabouts. It's been an eye opener in many respects. Did find benefit in using the Uptone Audio etherREGEN's dedicated ground to the Altaira, more than anything else - initially. I'd also used BNC tails with a dCS Vivaldi APEX DAC and Upsampler and found these of less clear benefit. Tried to do the same with the dCS Clock, but this was not at all helpful, and seemed to take me a step back. No clear idea as to why. So, I then decided to give a try to my Cybershaft clock which is acting as "master" for both my dCS and etherREGEN. That required changing my Cybershaft's "isolated" (floated) ground to grounded via switches for each of the clock outputs and wiring from the dedicated ground screw to the Altaira. That initially seemed to provide a better result.

Although the preferred approach is to first use a dedicated ground, then, if no dedicated ground, to use chassis grounding, and finally signal grounding if no continuity exists for chassis grounding. Through my own experience, the exterior silver chassis screws were found to be of a design which would not support the spade lugs (deeply recessed and no bite for the spades). That's why the BNC tails were used.

However, after Grant returned from his recent trip overseas, he contacted me, and suggested I use the smaller black screws on the back of the dCS Clock and see if that would work. Though he hadn't tested as yet on his unit, since he didn't have the smaller spade lugs, he ran the continuity test which proved, as expected, a better level of performance in grounding. I happened to have received a few of the smaller spade lugs, originally in hopes these would fit better on the two dedicated ground posts I'd been testing. Sure enough a smaller spade filled the bill on the dCS Clock. And I no longer found a problem with using the Altaira with the dCS Clock. However, I now noticed that the soundstage had shrunk a bit and I was getting less focus and, oddly, more tweeter hiss. Now confused and downcast, as you might imagine.

Since I was going to return my loaner cable I simply removed it from the Cybershaft and let this clock revert to Isolated (ground lifted) mode. And when I turned everything on again I was very surprised to hear a much better system than ever. I went ahead and removed the BNC tails and wired the spades to the black chassis screws on the back of the Vivaldi DAC and Upsampler. And things jumped up another level. All the odd things that happened with the Cybershaft had disappeared and all the hoped for benefits of the Altaira came to fruition.

So, lesson learned: assume nothing when on the hunt for eradicating "ground gremlins"...

**brodricj** · November 15, 2022, 09:20 PM

So you eventually solved a problem you didn't know existed, by first creating a bigger problem?

**stevebythebay** · November 15, 2022, 10:02 PM

Sorta'.

I'd say I didn't know why the dCS Clock was adversely affected by connecting to the Altaira. That simply led to seeing if the Cybershaft would work with the Altaira. Clearly that didn't play out as hoped. It wasn't until Grant's recommendation to try chassis connecting the dCS Clock to the Altaira that the situation improved, leading to additional chassis connections to the other dCS components and finally the serendipity of removing the Cybershaft from the Altaira that everything improved to where it is today.

**crwilli** · November 15, 2022, 11:50 PM

Damnit! You can’t un-hear the sonic benefits the Altaira make - even over the CGS capabilities of an Everest.

My order is placed.

**Mike** · November 16, 2022, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by crwilli

Damnit! You can’t un-hear the sonic benefits the Altaira make - even over the CGS capabilities of an Everest.

My order is placed.

Woot!

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**Ritmo** · November 16, 2022, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by crwilli

Damnit! You can’t un-hear the sonic benefits the Altaira make - even over the CGS capabilities of an Everest.

My order is placed.

Ok, I’m going to have to try it. I hope my dealer has one I can borrow.

**u-sound** · November 16, 2022, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ritmo

Ok, I’m going to have to try it. I hope my dealer has one I can borrow.

lol, i always look very close what you buy because i am sure you are the one to get the deepest recommendations from mike.

**Ritmo** · November 16, 2022, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by u-sound

lol, i always look very close what you buy because i am sure you are the one to get the deepest recommendations from mike.

Haha! Thanks but Mike treats all his customers with white gloves.

**u-sound** · November 16, 2022, 08:25 PM

sure, i just think its double safe

**kzhtoo** · November 17, 2022, 01:50 AM

No more rack space, guys. La La La La

Shunyata Launches - ALTAIRA GROUNDING SYSTEM!!

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**Mike** · November 17, 2022, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

No more rack space, guys. La La La La

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It’s meant to go ON TOP of an existing component (Preamp/DAC). I had this discussion with Caelin. Mine will go on top of my Esoteric or Aurender.

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**MichaelsMinute** · November 17, 2022, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

No more rack space, guys. La La La La

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That was a good try! Did it work? LOL

**brodricj** · November 17, 2022, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

...Mine will go on top of my Esoteric or Aurender.

Esoteric make a big deal about the new floating top design of the current generation Grandioso. Sitting stuff on top of the floating top kind-a defeats the purpose of the floating top.

**Mike** · November 17, 2022, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by brodricj

Esoteric make a big deal about the new floating top design of the current generation Grandioso. Sitting stuff on top of the floating top kind-a defeats the purpose of the floating top.

True. I’ll likely do the top of the Aurender anyway.

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**Puma Cat** · November 18, 2022, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ritmo

Haha! Thanks but Mike treats all his customers with white gloves.

Once you experience Altaira, there is no going back...

**Puma Cat** · November 18, 2022, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

No more rack space, guys. La La La La

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Rack space?

"We don't need no stinkin' rack space...."

**brodricj** · November 18, 2022, 04:18 AM

I wonder if they will build a floor standing Altaira tower model

**TommyC** · November 18, 2022, 11:36 PM

Will Shunyata offer the Altaira in black? They did for the Everest eventually.

**u-sound** · November 19, 2022, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Rack space?

"We don't need no stinkin' rack space...."

hi puma, i see you got the optional footers under the altaria.
did you compare to stock?
i am a big beliver in vibration control, then again i try to understand the influence on a grounding device.

and, why is it recommended to place it on top of a device? just to safe space?

**Puma Cat** · November 19, 2022, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by u-sound

hi puma, i see you got the optional footers under the altaria.
did you compare to stock?
i am a big beliver in vibration control, then again i try to understand the influence on a grounding device.

and, why is it recommended to place it on top of a device? just to safe space?

Yes, the SSF-38s provide improved audio performance as they have better mechanical grounding and impulse transfer speed (to pass vibration away from the Altaira chassis as quickly as possible). Vibration affects pretty much everything, including grounding devices. This is also why they improve the performance of power distributors, as well.

The Altairas are designed to sit directly on top of another component's chassis (e.g. an amp or preamp, etc.) so as to allow the shortest possible ground cables to be used to connect to the system components (as length has a direct impact on impedance for ground cables) and also have a minimal impact on rack space that is required.

For the little Amp Camp amps, I have them resting on the HRS footers just to raise them up a bit more, and provide better cooling for both the Altaira and the amps (the ACAs run a bit hot as they are Class A).

**u-sound** · November 19, 2022, 04:45 PM

thx!
so the grounding cables can be ordered shorter than standard (1,25m)?
i remember i couldnt order a omega ethernet shortet than standard.

**Puma Cat** · November 19, 2022, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by u-sound

thx!
so the grounding cables can be ordered shorter than standard (1,25m)?
i remember i couldnt order a omega ethernet shortet than standard.

Yes, IIRC, they can be ordered in 0.5M lengths.

The reason you could not order an Ethernet (or, USB) cable shorter than 1.5M is because for digital signal cables, there is a minimal length that is required minimize the impact of reflections on the cable.

Remember, the signal is an electromagnetic wave that propogates down the cable (it is not electrons flowing through the cable like water in a hose or marbles in a tube). The Vp (propogation velocity) of the signal is frequency-dependent, and an electromagnetic "signal" wave can reach the end of the cable and "reflect back", just like water in a tub or pool. This means different frequencies propogate down and reach the end of the cable at different times. And, because the Vp is different for different frequencies, there will be a number of "back reflections" occuring at...different times†.

And, particularly with respect to digital sources, our brains are very, very sensitive to the impact of timing. For digital audio, for example, we can actually hear the influence of timing errors in the picosecond range, which is why we need femtoclocks for components like DACs, streamers, network bridges, etc. This is why components like the Cybershaft master clocks, etc., have such a positive impact.

The 1.5 M minimal length for Ethernet cables and USB cables was empirically determined as the shortest length that can be used to minimize the impact of signal wave "reflections" on audio quality.

It's physics, so yeah, it's a real thing*

*–Here is a figure showing the impact of signal/timing for Iconoclast speaker cables from Galen Garies, EE and audio cable lead engineer at Belden.

†-these timing differences can be measured using a time-domain reflectometer.

**u-sound** · November 19, 2022, 05:51 PM

wow, absolutely great answer, helps me understanding.
at the time i was thinking about cutting the ethernet in 2 pieces...glad i didnt

**Puma Cat** · November 20, 2022, 05:00 AM

U-sound, some additional background info:
Electromagnetic (EM) waves are changing electric and magnetic fields, transporting energy and momentum through space. EM waves are solutions of Maxwell's equations, which are the fundamental equations of electrodynamics. EM waves require no medium, they can propagate through empty space. Sinusoidal plane waves are one type of electromagnetic waves. Not all EM waves are sinusoidal plane waves, but all electromagnetic waves can be viewed as a linear superposition of sinusoidal plane waves traveling in arbitrary directions. A plane EM wave traveling in the x-direction is of the form

E(x,t) = Emaxcos(kx - ωt + φ), B(x,t) = Bmaxcos(kx - ωt + φ).

E is the electric field vector, and B is the magnetic field vector of the EM wave. For electromagnetic waves E and B are always perpendicular to each other and perpendicular to the direction of propagation. The direction of propagation is the direction of E x B.

If, for a wave traveling in the x-direction E = Ej, then B = Bk and j x k = i. Electromagnetic waves are transverse waves.

The wave number is k = 2π/λ, where λ is the wavelength of the wave. The frequency f of the wave is f = ω/2π, ω is the angular frequency. The speed of any periodic wave is the product of its wavelength and frequency.

v = λf.

The speed of any electromagnetic waves in free space is the speed of light c = 3*10^8 m/s. Electromagnetic waves can have any wavelength λ, or frequency f as long as λf = c.

When electromagnetic waves travel through a medium, the speed of the waves in the medium is v = c/n(λfree), where n(λfree) is the index of refraction of the medium. The index of refraction n is a properties of the medium, and it depends on the wavelength λfree of the EM wave. If the medium absorbs some of the energy transported by the wave, then n(λfree) is a complex number. For air n is nearly equal to 1 for all wavelengths. When an EM wave travels from one medium with index of refraction n1, into another medium with a different index of refraction n2, then its frequency remains the same, but, its speed (Vp) and wavelength change. For air, n is nearly equal to 1.

We owe much of our understanding of this to two British geniuses, James Clerk Maxwell, and the (self-educated) polymath, Oliver Heaviside, who "re-worked" Maxwell's field equations, and made them usable in the real world.

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