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My experience is a bit different. The cable from the wall to the Denali prefers to be Shunyata at some level. The Hurricane sounds great, just not quite as good by a small margin. From the Denali to the pwr-amp, pre-amp, DAC, etc., I believe your equipment determines the preference. You’re already made those choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crion
Have fun!
Coppy, was it a Sigma XC (part of V2 series) you compared with the Hurricane?
Sigma NRQuote:
Originally Posted by Crion
I recently borrowed one of these from my dealer. One of my favorite conductors is Bruno Walter. His recording have been a dilemma for decades. For whatever reason full throat massed strings on most of his stereo recordings tend to be bright to near harsh. The fourth movement of Mozart's Linz Symphony for example. The only speaker that was a good match for this problem were Quad ESL 63's, but they made everything sound good within their limitations! The problem exists with both digital and analog sources.
With the Denali 6000s V2 replacing my Hydra 8 I could hardly believe what I heard. I've struggled with trying to listen to Walter's Brahms 3rd for many, many years with the string tone destroying my enjoyment of his performance. With the Denali the string tone went from nasty to acceptable. The strings still don't sound like Reference Recording or the better RCA Living Stereos, but they no longer get in the way of musical enjoyment.
This miracle is achieved with no side effects that I can hear. There is no loss of detail so the Denali isn't filtering any music, just the nasties. I'm sold.
One last item. For whatever reason the Denali makes digital sound less like digital and more like music!
Quote:
Originally Posted by egradyh
Hey egradyh,
Don't know what you are using from the Denali to the wall but you might try a power cord from Shunyata for even more of that good effect.
Enjoy...
Your experiences are consistent with what many Denali 6000/S V2 owners experience. One of the reasons that the string tone has improved is because of the QR/BB device in Denali V2. It imparts a much more accurate reproduction of the tonal qualities of instruments. As Coppy has mentioned, this can be notably enhanced by using a Shunyata power cord, and specifically, you will get the most performance using an Alpha XC or Sigma XC power cord. The power cord that connects Denali to the wall AC is the most important power cord in your system.Quote:
Originally Posted by egradyh
As for the improvement in digital, that is also due to the noise reduction capabilities of Denali, including the proprietary filters but also the unique ground-plane noise reduction (GP-NR) system. A lot of what he hear as "hash" or "glare" with digital content is due to noise components on the ground plane of the analog square wave voltage that comprises a digital signal.
For further improvements in your digital music, if you are connecting from a music server to a DAC with a USB cable, you can make considerable improvements by using at least the Shunyata Alpha USB cable, and if you use Ethernet in your connections, the Shunyata Ethernet cable. Additionally, if have a computer in your audio rack functioning as a server, a big improvement can be made by simply placing it in another part of the house.
I'm old school, just physical media, so no concern with streaming music. I have an Alpha NR V1 from wall to Denali. Still, I appreciate the suggestions.
Sorry double post.
Hi all. I just ordered a Denali 6000Sv2, sigma analog Pc, and alpha Ethernet cable from Suncoast. Mike was very easy to deal with and helpful BTW. I’m also waiting on a alpha v2 pc (from cable co).
These will be my first Shunyata cables (and conditioner.). I’m hoping to get a nice boost in performance over some of my older (mm2) Transparent power gear. I recently bought a dCS Rossini DAC and just started streaming via Tidal. I find myself listening to my system a lot more. I definitely am looking to squeeze as much performance as I can out of my digital front end.
Not sure what to believe regarding the hype, and denial of audiophile Ethernet cables, switches, etc. Anyway, will let you guys know my experience with the Shunyata. I hope it is as positive as some of the reviews on here.
Dave
Hi Dave. :wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs1217
Thanks for the kind words.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
The Denali 6000/S V2 is out for a while now. Has anybody been able to compare it to a PS Audio P20 ?
Just received a Denali V2 and an Alpha XC cord. Can't wait to give it a go and see what differences I hear! Great New Years Eve present!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGabriel
Would love to know how the Sigma S12 compares in performance to the Denali/s v2.
Would one miss much if acquiring an S12 for a 2-ch system, vs Denali 6000sv2?
(I know...it's subjective!). :S
They're quite comparable; they both have the same noise suppression specification of 50dB (which is a lot; my original Triton V1 had something like 24dB).Quote:
Originally Posted by neuro747
The QR/BB device in the Denali will provide somewhat more immediacy and "slam" on dynamic passages or passages that scale from soft to loud.
The Sigma S12 has twice the number of outlets, so there's that.
I think the GP-NR system in them is the same system. Not to be overlooked.
^ Thanks for the reply. Seems S12 is the better value with 12 outlets.
Used Triton v1/Typhon v1 for several years, and they are fantastic.
What are the differences between the Denali and the Hydra Triton/Tryphon? It seems they are comparable in price (used Hydra vs. new Denali).
Just got my Denali V2 today in Singapore :)
Waiting for Alpha XC power cord for the wall. As of now using Delta V2 XC.
So far good.
Connected to Lumin T2 using Delta V2 NR and Dan D’Agostino Progression Integrated Amp using Siltech 680P Power cord.
Do they have Everest in Singapore?
They don’t have it in display at the store. But they can order the Everest if I want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by brodricj
I was looking for the best power conditioner which can fit inside the shelf/rack
I find the Everest form factor appealing in not taking up an expensive rack shelf level.
Do they have coppercon wall outlet in Singapore ? I try to order in Jakarta , but no availability.Quote:
Originally Posted by kishorebs85
Yes, I got the US coppercon outlets in SingaporeQuote:
Originally Posted by Mat.1
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kishorebs85
How is the improvement of the coppercon wall outlet ?
Sorry, I thought you were asking me about the outlets of the denali.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat.1
I am using standard wall outlet (UK) for powering the denali.
It’s Ok .thanks for replying.Quote:
Originally Posted by kishorebs85
Late to the party but can anyone comment on SQ differences between Denali V1 and V2?
I know about the 6 zone isolation but wondered what the sound difference is.
There is no definitive answer to your question. I have Denali V1. Sounds no different plugged into the Denali or plugged directly to the wall. Yet other owners, with different equipment, find totally the opposite. I don't have Denali V2 to compare against Denali V1, but if I did the benefit in my home is no measure of how it might perform in your home. Or anybody else's. If you can afford a new Denali buy a V2. If you can't, buy a V1, if you can find one. There aren't many out there on the used market.
A key difference is QR/BB. On Denali v1, only one duplex gets this. On Denali v2, each duplex gets this. QR/BB is the real deal and it can increase perceived dynamics. I would think that we’d want to have any component with an analog stage on an outlet with QR/BB. That’s not as easily accomplished with Denali v1. My DAC (which also serves as my preamp) gets my Denali v1’s QR/BB outlet. That outlet was freed up as my amp sounds a little better when plugged directly into a second dedicated circuit. The rest of my Dv1’s outlets are powering digital-only components so this works out pretty well in my case. Less so back when I still had an analog preamp and phono stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by mauideejay
QR/BB may benefit digital-only components too, but I just don’t know that to be the case.
Oh and one more difference between Dv1 and Dv2. The Dv1 had only three isolated zones. Components sharing the same duplex weren’t isolated from each other. I believe that with the Dv2 there is even isolation between outlets on a duplex. With the Dv1, one has to be careful to not have an analog component share a duplex with a digital component. With only 3 duplexes that’s harder to do.
On Dv1, which duplex gets QR/BB?
It’s the HC Zone for high current.Quote:
Originally Posted by brodricj
Oh, I see. I only have one mono amp connected to a HC outlet. Everything else is connected via the other outlets. I would like to own an Everest, but regrettably they are not sold in my market.
Here's an update for Denali 6000/T owners...there is now an upgrade path to version 2.
From the Shunyata email:
Dear Shunyata Customers,
We are excited to announce the long-anticipated upgrade program for the original Hydra Denali 6000/T.
This upgrade converts existing Denali 6000/T units to version 2 and will include internal upgrades only (no external changes). Internally, the updated 6000/T v2 is an almost complete rebuild!
Denali 6000/T v2 Upgrade Features
• 6 independent zones of isolation (all 6 outlets are isolated from one another)
• 6 independent high current outlets
• Includes significantly improved versions of the QRBB, NIC and CCI modules
• Performance increase is comparable to or slightly above the award winning Hydra Denali 6000/S v2
UPGRADE COST: $1,500
If you are interested in upgrading your unit please contact Richard Rogers at richard@shunyata.com or call the Shunyata factory at 360-598-9935.
All the best and thank you for your continued support,
The Shunyata Research Team
I asked Richard what sort of documentation and/or badging there would be to denote the unit being v2 and here's what he said:
The documentation will be updated (box labels, build cards, etc) along with an updated serial number sticker on the bottom of the unit. Your upgraded Denali will reflect v2 on the paperwork and on the sticker.
I sent mine back for the upgrade last week.
Nothing mentioned on the website news about this.
So the v2 upgrade is only for the tower model Denali 6000, right?
That's all I'm aware of. Seems like they could do the same upgrade on the 6000/S v1 but I haven't seen anything about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by brodricj
I will answer this in a few weeks. I have a P20 that I use for most of my equipment. I just ordered two Denali 6000/S V2 to replace it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devg
I will sell the unit that doesn’t work as well in my system. I really like the P20. I have had it for nearly 2 years and it’s been rock-solid. Never had any issues. I never had issues with the P5 that I had before that, which I had for 3-4 years.
So why replace it? Maybe I will end up not selling it. I’ve reached a point where if I can get a marginal benefit for ~$10K, I will gladly do it. A lower noise floor/background hiss is the main objective. My custom horns are over 100dB sensitive and I only sit 10’ away, and all equipment is Very revealing (Nagra HD DAC X, DarTZeel pre and power amp)…
Anyone else make the change from P20 to Denali 6000 v2 (who is unbiased and not a dealer!?)?
Wall to conditioner is critical. Will you have a proper Shunyata XC cable on hand to drive the Denalis?
Hi, May I check with you if you find a worthwhile upgrade from the Delta XC to the Alpha XC? I’m currently using the Delta to my Denali 6000 v2. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kishorebs85
Indeed: Shunyata Alpha XC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crion
Somewhat off-topic, but why is the wall to component AC cord so important, when there are dozens, in not hundreds, of feet of cheap wire behind the wall? I know that AC power cables make a huge difference, I just never understood why. Does the drywall shield the cheap copper from interference?
“The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.”Quote:
Originally Posted by Surge
Introduction: “There are a lot of misconceptions about power transmission and power quality that make it difficult for some people to understand why a power cord makes a sonic difference. The first question is – do power cords make any difference at all? There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect. Most of the thousands of people that use our power cords started out as skeptics and have answered that question for themselves and have found that power cables and power conditioners can have a profound impact on performance. And no - I do not care to debate with people that have not done the simplest of tests about whether power cords work or not. The only cases where a high quality cord does not have significant effects is when it is used with a poor quality power conditioner that acts as a high impedance to instantaneous current flow. “
Misconception #1: AC Power is like water coming from a large power tank, flowing through several 10s of feet of power hose into a component. This implies that the component is at the end of this system.
Answer: “Actually, the component sits between two power conductors: the hot and the neutral. AC power oscillates (alternates) back and forth at a 50-60 Hz rate. So power does not pour into the component at all. The component's power supply is within a complex network of wires and connectors. ALL of the wire and connectors can and do affect the performance of the component's power supply.”
Misconception #2: AC power can be contaminated just like water in a hose. This implies that once the water is contaminated at some point up stream, that is must be cleansed before it arrives at the audio component.
Answer: “As stated in #1, the component is not at the end of the power hose. It is between two power hoses and the current is oscillating back and forth. Further, current is not like water at all. Electrons cannot be contaminated. There are two aspects to power transmission: the electromagnetic wave and the current flow. The current itself cannot be contaminated but the electromagnetic wave can be modulated with other frequencies. We usually call these other frequencies noise or Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Within the various parts of a power circuit there may be EMI in certain parts that is not present in others. Electromagnetic energy can be transformed or redirected to lessen their effects.
"Some power cords use capacitors, inductors, or ferrites in an attempt to control the electromagnetic fields around the audio component. The success of such an approach is completely dependent upon the specific design and the reactance of the power supply of the component to which the power cable is attached.”
Misconception #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can't possibly make any difference.
Answer: “The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.”
Misconception #4: There is a tremendous amount of electrical interference and EMI coming from outside the home that we need to protect our equipment from. This implies that we need some sort of power conditioner or filter to protect the equipment.
Answer: “Most of the EMI that affects the audio quality of a system is generated by the audio components themselves. Electromagnetic waves that traveling through space dissipate in power at the square of the distance from the source. Further, very high frequencies that propagate through the power circuit do not survive for long. Power lines present a high impedance to MHz and GHz signals due to the relatively high inductance of power lines.
"A primary source of audible sonic degradation is caused by the power supplies in our audio/video components. Most components use FWBR (full wave bridge rectifier) power supplies that generate an incredible amount of transient noise when the rectifiers switch off. The design of a power cable can significantly affect the reactance of these signals within the power supply. The power cable is effectively part of the primary winding of the power transformer. The transition between the various metals used in a power cable and its connectors can cause electromagnetic reflections and diode-like rectification of the noise impulses as they propagate away from the power supply. If the power cable presents a high impedance to these signals they will be reflected back into the power supply where they will intermodulate, thus increasing the high frequency noise levels of the component. Most power supply filters are ineffective at blocking very high frequency noise components and much of it is passed through to the DC rails. The sonic effects of this include: high background noise levels, blurred or slurred transients and a general lack of clarity and purity of the sound or visual image.”
Misconception #5: There is some sort of conspiracy among audio designers that keeps them from producing a "proper" power supply that is not affect by power cable quality.
Answer: “This concept is like saying that if a speaker where properly designed, you wouldn't need to use a good quality speaker cable. PowerSnakes have been tested with the most modest of mid-fi equipment and the most exotic state of the art components. We have yet to find a component that cannot be improved by replacing the power cord.
"As long as power supply design is based upon FWBRs or switching supplies, the power cord will always be significant.”
Misconception #6: High-end power cords just increase the circuit capacitance acting as a high-frequency shunt
Answer: “There are some power cords that ARE designed this way. Some even insert capacitors within the cable to further increase capacitance. This approach has some positives and many negatives including the reactive interference with the way many power supplies are designed.
"Capacitance alone cannot account for the differences in a power cord's performance. There are some high-end power cords that are very effective that have virtually immeasurable levels of capacitance. These cables are usually designed around hollow tubes with the conductors inside. The conductors are several inches apart and cannot significantly affect the capacitance of the power circuit.”
Misconception #7: Power cords are just like speaker cables; always the shorter the cable the better.
Answer: “Some speaker cable designers would argue that a speaker cable below a certain length is not better. We will let them address the issue if they desire.
"A speaker cable conducts an audio signal from the power amplifier to the speaker. The distance is quite small, on the order of a couple of feet to several feet. The quality of a speaker cable is determined by how well it can transmit the signal from the amplifier to the speaker without alteration.
"A power cable on the other hand is not transmitting a signal. It is conducting A.C. power and its sonic superiority will be determined by its ability to deliver current (steady-state and instantaneous) and its ability to deal with the EMI effects of the components to which it is attached.
"Since a power cord is composed of a hot and neutral wire that the component sits between, a change in the length of the cord will increase the size of the "buffer" around the component. In general, I would not recommend a power cord that is shorter than 3 feet or 1 meter in length. But subtle degrees of audio performance are not the only consideration when putting together an audio system. Esthetics is also important especially when the system is located in a beautiful home. I just point out the performance differences so that people can make an informed decision when determining the optimum length for their cables.
"There is much more that can be discussed about power delivery but for the sake of brevity I'll cut it short at this point. On a personal note I would like to say that I was an audiophile long before I was a manufacturer of audio products. Before Shunyata Research I designed high speed networking devices and can tell you that there is a lot more money to be made in the computer industry. Like many of the manufacturers of high-end audio components, I design my products for myself and for the love of music. If other people like what I have created - great. If after trying our product you prefer another - great. There is a wide diversity of preference and subjective perception among individuals. Thank goodness there is also a wide diversity of manufacturers that create products to serve a variety of tastes.”
Caelin Gabriel
Shunyata Research Inc.
Addendum:
“Before we produced our first power cord, we did extensive testing of the audible effects of a variety of devices and materials associated with power transmission. We created many jigs and test apparatus that allowed us to test wire types, dielectric materials, connector contacts, dampening materials and a variety of transformers, chokes, coils, ferrites, capacitors, triacs and diacs. After 3 years of testing, we concluded that just about anything and everything that is inserted in or around the electromagnetic field of a power circuit has an audible effect. Some of the effects are quite small and are relatively insignificant. Others are dramatically profound and sometimes surprising in their behavior. Obviously we are not going to "give away the farm" and discuss all of our findings, but there are some very basic observations that I can share with you.
"First would be that wire type and size in a power cord is highly overrated. Every wire type (I am talking about the metal itself) has a specific sonic characteristic. Silver, copper, brass, gold and others all "sound" different. The difference in sound is not related to conductivity capacity because we adjusted the sizes during testing to account for this. Each of the metal's inherent "sonics" can be ameliorated by careful adjustment of the other materials used in the construction of the final cable. We have a warehouse full of various prototype cables that never made it to production. Some of these use a relatively small wire size of ~18ga, that sounds surprising full in the bass. Intuitively, you might think that a small wire would sound thin in the bass region. This is not always the case. Conversely, we have some cables with wire as large as 1gauge that sound powerful in the bass but are also flabby and irregular sounding. So, just increasing the wire size is not the easy answer that some might think.
"Most of what I have to say here are my "conclusions" based upon observation through trial and error testing. Furthermore, there are no perfect components and there are no perfect parts. Everything is relative and the designer must weigh the sonic value of each part when designing a product. Our philosophy is to create a product that is a faithful musical component as opposed to striving for excellence in any single performance area.
"Our tests with coils and chokes indicate that (in general, with exceptions) that any coil or choke that is placed in-line with the power circuit is harmful to dynamics. Many of them will also induce a subtle smearing or blurring of transients. This is naturally dependent upon the power supply design of the unit that the coil is used with. Coils and chokes are necessary in most components and I prefer "single layer wound" types such as the foil designs. Cost of production will always mitigate against the use of these types of coils due to the expense. We definitely do not believe in placing coils or capacitors within a power cable. These devices belong in the component or in a dedicated power conditioner.
"Many components use a power inlet IEC that has an integrated "L" or "pi" filter. The quality of these devices varies dramatically. Generally speaking, the more capacitors and inductors that you have in a circuit, the more complex the dynamic interactions will be between the devices. This will also make the component they are used in more reactive and the possibility of negative sonic effects increase. Multiple filter networks can resonate and generate unintended results that have subtle but audible ringing / pinging sounds. Many of these IEC packages were created for office and computer products and are required to pass certification tests for EMI emissions. All I can say is that what is good for a fax machine is not necessarily good for a pre-amplifier.
"Shielding can be a two-edged sword. On one hand, it can reduce radiated fields from impacting other components. On the other hand, the shielding may induce re-radiated fields onto the cable or component that it is being used in. Sometimes the cure may be worse than the illness. As always - you must know your materials and tools and apply intelligence with a small dose of intuition to create a world class product. There is no silver bullet and there is no rote formula that works in all cases. There is just hard work, occasional inspiration and lots of testing.”
Caelin Gabriel
Shunyata Research Inc.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Thanks! Great reminders, especially about the fact that AC current does not “flow” like water through a hose.
BTW, I ordered all my Shunyata components from Suncoast.
Mike,
Thanks for the education and information from Caelin. Can either of you explain how manufacturers manage to design stiff power cords and balanced interconnects to always be 180 degrees off the needed orientation for insertion? :hmmm:
One suggestion would be to orient your power outlet with the ground pin on top, for a more secure connection and an orientation 180 degrees from 'normal.' This is often recommended by PC manufacturers and dealers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzie