Thread: AC Power Cable "Break-In"

AC Power Cable - "Break-in"

Opinions?

Good read once you get past all the big words.

I'm no expert in that department (not the big words but the "break-in" period for AC power cords).

Electricity is electricity, and an electric wire is an electric wire is an electric wire.

That was very interesting.

Great read and so true, the power cables are easy to break in, get an adaptor hook it to your refrigerator for 2 weeks, a few hours on your system and you are done.

I believe it Bob. Electricity is electricity, but everyones system is different and the cables need to get acclimated to the system that they are hooked up to. I think of it as buying a car. Whether new or used you, the driver, need time to figure out how it works, how it feels, etc... to get the best out of it.

Originally Posted by NorthStar

"Refrigerator"; ok, I'm on it right away. ...I let you know in two-weeks time.
...Should I put them in the freezer too for two weeks?

Your igloo should be fine.

Originally Posted by dlb2

I believe it Bob. Electricity is electricity, but everyone's system is different and the cables need to get acclimated to the system that they are hooked up to. I think of it as buying a car. Whether new or used you, the driver, need time to figure out how it works, how it feels, etc... to get the best out of it.

Doug, we are totally free to believe anything and anyone.
"The cables need to get acclimated to the system that they are hooked up to."
It's the same with that nice bottle of red wine you just purchased. ...Or that brand new wife you just married.

It makes total perfect sense. Then how come nobody is measuring it and divulge the results (objectively, and subjectively)???

Originally Posted by dlb2

Your igloo should be fine.

My igloo is so fine that everything that comes inside get broken-in instantly!

___________________

Us people, crazy audiophiles of the vast universe; it is amazing sometimes what we can come up with and post on audio fora!

Originally Posted by NorthStar

My igloo is so fine that everything that comes inside get broken-in instantly!

___________________

Us people, crazy audiophiles of the vast universe; it is amazing sometimes what we can come up with and post on audio fora!

Cryogenics, that's the ticket!

Originally Posted by NorthStar

Doug, we are totally free to believe anything and anyone.
"The cables need to get acclimated to the system that they are hooked up to."
It's the same with that nice bottle of red wine you just purchased. ...Or that brand new wife you just married.

It makes total perfect sense. Then how come nobody is measuring it and divulge the results (objectively, and subjectively)???

I can't answer that Bob. Maybe, and remember I said "maybe", the results don't have an effect on the measuring devices. Perhaps the flow of electricity is the same but the sound is different. Perhaps break-in is just "break down" and what you're hearing is the effect of time being a cruel mistress on the wire. It's aging, like your bottle of fine wine. But I'm just talking here is all...

Like I've been saying all along - we can't measure everything our ears can hear. So, when someone tells me that speaker X is better than speaker Y because of measurements - I just laugh. The measurements only tell half the story.

isn't it amazing what drugs will do to a persons brain !............

Absolutely Doug; we're simply having a friendly discussion.
What amazes me the most though is the people's opinion (two) who are claiming that already broken-in cables need to be broken-in again if you used them in a new system!

I mean I love life and everything in it, and my audio passion runs deep into the stream of my blood cells, and I wish I had more time to do all the things that truly matter.

Originally Posted by Mikado463

isn't it amazing what drugs will do to a persons brain !............

Very true, and measured or nut!

Originally Posted by Mikado463

isn't it amazing what drugs will do to a persons brain !............

What was the question?

1 + 1 = ?

Originally Posted by dlb2

What was the question?

----------That! ^

So Bob, back to the idea that even used cables need to be acclimated to a different system... Lets try my car analogy again. If you were to drive my Yugo and I your Ferrari, it would take each of us a certain amount of time to become one with the car. Once that flow is attained then everything upside down is righted again. The new used cables just need some driving time to offer their peak performance. Again, I'm just talkin'...

Yes, but let's say that this woman audiophile (Roxanne) with an ultra high end stereo hi-fi system, has everything perfectly dialed in for the last few months or so; break-in cables and AC power cords and all.

Then one day she decides to bring her AC power cord to her best girlfriend's (Angela) ultra high end stereo hi-fi system to see (hear) if it would make a difference for the better?

Angela then asks Roxy if the AC power cord is brand new; Roxy says "no" and that she has been using it in her own system for the last two months or so. Then Angela says "perfect, let's get on with the listening comparison". ...Music listening session.

* Was there a mistake committed somewhere along the way? ...Just talkin' ....

Oh absolutely, I wasn't invited!

No, there was no mistake committed. Perhaps Roxie's ultra high end SET amp draws power differently than Angie's ultra high end SS amp. They will have a fun time listening to music and perhaps in a few days time Angie calls Roxy up to tell her that her system has never sounded better.

The End.

Let's see other's viewpoint.

Was there a question or comment associated, or just throwing it up for fun? If there's a legit question that can be answered, we've been consistent in answering them on other forums and would do the same here if its a reasoned, genuine question.

Caelin covered the technical angle of power cord break in from his point of view because it had become a common topic on the forums he posted it to --and his opinion was requested by the OP. There are those that have genuine curiosity about the topic and of course, others who believe it's all part of a larger myth of power cables affecting performance at all. Posting a naked link here is a little like chumming for sharks from the looks of it..

Frankly, outside of the internet forums, which draw opinion from all over-- even from those that won't be bothered to try an aftermarket power cord, there is no break-in debate. It is not a subtle enough phenomenon that it could be confused with mood, unfamiliarity ("getting to know you") or the senses being fooled. If a system is well calibrated for 2-ch listening, the arc of most custom-designed power cord's performance over the first five days is dramatic and consistent to each product.

Those who were not aware of the degree of these effects have been calling me for the better part of 14 years. The descriptive comments based on the days of use are so similar that I no longer need them to describe whatever they are hearing. They just need to tell me how many days (hours of use) they have with the product and I can accurately describe the general sound characteristics of that stage. Either I'm clairvoyant (which I'm definitely not), or there are consistent, easy to identify similarities in how a specific model power cord (of ours) will sound on each day after it is brought home and used.

Obviously, each class and type of product will have their own unique burn-in cycle, but the associated characteristics of a cable's performance as it changes over a specific time interval is similar for a given product. Again, its not a subtle phenomenon.

At the top of the recording/mastering community, where the best engineers examine sound so carefully its as if by microscope, most of them understand and accept burn-in of any new cable product as a simple fact of life. If they move, bend or otherwise mishandle cable, they know it has to sit for a few hours with signal/current to re-stabilize.

This phenomenon hasn't been measured and explicated scientifically because no one's going to enter into that research without serious funding or in essence "get paid" for the work. Even if incontrovertible truths were uncovered, the forum arguments would continue much as they are and the measurements would be refuted (quacks, paid off etc).

There are generally two poles of opinion that are common to these types of discussions. Pole One: are end users who have empirical experience with countless products that go through rather unequivocal changes over the first week or more of use. Pole Two: are those who have already determined without having performed their own tests that burn in related to power cords and, or cables in general is based on the wild imaginings of the audiophile community. There are Poles in between, sure, but these are the main two.

I hope this sheds a bit of context on Caelin's post that got dart-boarded….

Regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research

Grant - thank you for shedding some light on the burn-in cycle. We appreciate your input and the education you provide. I definitely believe in the importance of cable burn in. I can't explain it per se, but I know it makes a difference.

Yes, thank you Grant for expressing your view. We all appreciate people genuinely sharing.

Best regards,
Bob

Maybe we should stop calling it burn-in, and come up with a better term. I prefer 'atomic alignment', as my hypothesis is the atoms in the cable become aligned over time, and this allows the cable to be a more efficient conductor.

Personally I could care less why break-in makes a difference. I do however find in fascinating why. Which is why I find this discussion great.

When I first read that post (post #1; link) I also thought the same; fascinating.

Then I wanted to share what I did find fascinating with my friends, but without forming any opinion; I just wanted to hear what people have to say.
Then I soon expressed mine too; regarding already "break-in" ('Atomic Alignment') AC power cords from one system, and then if used in another system, and found it even more fascinating that they needed to be "broken-in" ('atomic alignment') again! ...According to some.*

I've seen many things in my life, and I've read few two, and I consider myself a bright person.
I judge no one who has an opinion, but I like to comment on that opinion, not who has it.
That way I can learn something without being judged.

But life is tough once in a while, and having an opinion on an opinion that you are wondering about is like, for some people, hurting their feelings. No?
Is there a single word, a single thought in my post that seems to be unfair? Of course not.

We love to be happy, have fun, laugh, being humorous, learn, share, and we always respect.
We're all humans, sensitive people, smart people, and we know life's true essential values above all else.

There is a balance on our planet; and it is a mix of seriousness (at the right times), with pleasure (fun 'bout).
Everyone is free to choose his own balance for himself/herself, and nobody else has the right to tell them if their balance is right or wrong, as long that they don't really do anything wrong.

The words we use, are the words that describe us, our lines of thought. And the way we put them together, are not the same from one another. And our actions are direct reflections of who we truly are, our lines of thought.

* The part in purple is the part that I'm most interested in. And that's where I would love to learn more about. ...Anyone? ...Grant?

Originally Posted by NorthStar

. . . .What amazes me the most though is the people (two) who are claiming that already broken-in cables need to be broken-in again if you used them in a new system! . . . .

Some people think if you pick up the cables and lay them back down again, they need to be broken in again.

I would love to know why, scientifically speaking Gary. ...But I don't think I'll ever get that answer.

About you Gary, what do you think?

* Anyhow I'll see if one of my local audio dealers carry them and I'll get few of them (they're very affordable anyway),
and will experiment with them, and compare them to others, and in two different systems; unbroken (not atomically aligned), and breaking them in and re-breaking them in and lifting them of the floor and re-positioning them on the floor and re-re-breaking them in again. ...Ouf!

Originally Posted by NorthStar

Then I wanted to share what I did find fascinating with my friends, but without forming any opinion; I just wanted to hear what people have to say.
Then I soon expressed mine too; regarding already "break-in" ('Atomic Alignment') AC power cords from one system, and then if used in another system, and found it even more fascinating that they needed to be "broken-in" ('atomic alignment') again! ...According to some.*

Bob, I think Grant touched on that here in his post.

...At the top of the recording/mastering community, where the best engineers examine sound so carefully its as if by microscope, most of them understand and accept burn-in of any new cable product as a simple fact of life. If they move, bend or otherwise mishandle cable, they know it has to sit for a few hours with signal/current to re-stabilize.

This phenomenon hasn't been measured and explicated scientifically because no one's going to enter into that research without serious funding or in essence "get paid" for the work. Even if incontrovertible truths were uncovered, the forum arguments would continue much as they are and the measurements would be refuted (quacks, paid off etc).


I would think that this part,

If they move, bend or otherwise mishandle cable,

would also include changing cables to different systems.

The wife wanted me to move a lamp for her the other night, I couldn't do it, it would have taken too long for the cable to 'break in' again after I moved it !

Originally Posted by Mikado463

The wife wanted me to move a lamp for her the other night, I couldn't do it, it would have taken too long for the cable to 'break in' again after I moved it !

Grant - are there cables you have found that take longer to break in then others? For example, a pair of Anaconda speaker cables may take 3 times longer than a Venom 3 power cord? I've found that power cables seem to take the longest, IC's the shortest and speaker cables somewhere in the middle.

Good info Grant, thanks.

Originally Posted by GrantS

We use the term "settling" a lot because its a calming word and won't bristle the brow of the technically inclined. If I were to say, 'please allow several days for the proper atomic alignment of the metals', I'd be shown the door… Though I'd love to try that just once to see the reaction.

'Settling' is a good word, until somebody asks just what is 'settling'.

I have always been a fan of alliteration, so maybe 'molecular movement' is more apt. As in 'minimum molecular movement makes music more magnificent'.

Originally Posted by GrantS

People do readily accept that when you turn on a component like an amp or CD player, it can take the same 1-3 hours(some longer) for those components to settle and perform to their full potential.

Grant, I've got to ask…….. what is there within a CD player that takes up to three hours to 'settle in' ?

First, thank you Doug for your gentle reply (post #31 above).

And thank you Grant for a truly fascinating subject, and with your explanations; I am reading attentively.

And I'm sorry if earlier I came up sounding like skeptical with my unique sense of humor; rest assured that I always respect everyone.

Thank you again to what more and more I see as a very interesting discussion, and for Grant's patience and contribution.
- Shunyata Research seems to be well grounded, with realistically (very reasonable) priced products, and with performance to back them up.
So it is even more rewarding to have some real feedback by someone in the know (experienced) on how to care for them products when used in our own systems.

Kudos to you Grant. I am learning.

Well said Grant and I have addressed that concern with the Op.

Originally Posted by GrantS

... Within our range, probably the Digital cables take the longest due to the signal type.

... Interconnects are probably the fastest to break in, but in all a good rule of thumb is 5-6 days of heavy use for cables,
a little more for the digital cables or particularly heavy gauge cables.

Regards,

Grant

And I bet it's different between a digital Coaxial, Optical, Optical Glass, BNC, AES/EBU, USB, and a digital HDMI cable?

Originally Posted by GrantS

... For cables break-in/warm-up is not nearly as well understood, so controversy usually follows such discussions on the internet. That's why I'm not sure its a great idea to import and post cable "break-in" posts from other forums without any context. It tends to invite argument, off topic comments and incivility from my experience.

...

Grant

I see, and I agree (not in all circumstances though; it depends). I couldn't assume that all members here would read only that single post, when I also indicated to check other posts from the next page (ten of them).
...And when people are truly interested in an audio subject it is well conceivable and probable that they'll get into the heart of the matter, by reading some more, for the full context, as you just said.

My intention was of positiveness and educational information, genuinely well intended.
And I appreciate what you just said above because that's going to help me at improving my posting sometimes.

Originally Posted by GrantS

Ok that's priceless. I'm stealing it…

Feel free. However, a Typhon and short Anaconda umbilical would be nice for Xmas.

Great thread. Thanks for the insight, Grant.

Originally Posted by GrantS

Companies that make Digital products such as Bel Canto and DCS have long advocated warm-up of the DAC/CD/Clock devices. John Stronzer of Bel Canto or David Steven of DCS could explain it some detail, but in general it has to do with the DAC's stabilizing after having been off for any length of time.

Ok, perhaps, but multiples of hours I can't buy into.

With Tube amps, the guys at ARC, VAC, LAMM, Atmasphere, VTL and others would explain thermal issues and tubes coming to balance.

Now this is completely understood and accepted

Any number of solid-state electronics engineers have explained why the warm-up of their transformers for several hours is important before critical listening.

Again, understanding the stabilization aspect aside, I'm willing to wager that when the phrase 'critical listening' is used in our audiophile world that a large percentage of those folks are more concerned with their equipment than the actual music. Grant, my rebuttal is not a 'flame' against you rather a reaction / observation and understanding of a life long love evolvement in music and it's enjoyable reproduction.

keep your contributions coming…….it's all good !

Yes Grant, please post any thought and audio experiences you feel to share with us; we don't bite, or our bite is very friendly, always.

I started this thread mainly because I love everything I'm reading from Caelin, and owner's comments of Shunyata Research's products.
It has a 'sound' value/solidity to it all. ...The support you guys bring to your products are essential to us for getting the full benefits.

I have two questions:

1. What is going on within the power cord that is producing the beneficial sound effect from "break-in"?

2. Why do cables sound different when touching carpets or curtains?