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  1. #51

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by briguy View Post
    Everything arrived yesterday. I have a lot going on this weekend, so won't get to get it all set up until Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll need to let it settle in a bit before reporting anything, but will keep you posted.

    I I was planning to go the Shindo Player route, however, they're not going to be in production for the near future so it wasn't an option. I almost got a used one when it came up for sale, but it sold before I was sure I could pull the $$ together on such short notice.

    In in the end it's all trade offs. Unless you get to live with both approaches for a significant period of time, I think it's hard to fairly evaluate the strengths/weaknesses of a table, particularly the Shindo vs Artisan Fidelity since the differences are likely to be subtle or more subtle than Shindo vs a modern belt-drive table.

    For me personally, I put a high value on the aesthetics (I work in UX design), so the ability to customize the look via veneer selection was important. And I liked the idea of a dual arm table, something Shindo doesn't offer.

    In in the end it's a leap of faith. It's an easier leap with the Shindo Player in the context of a full Shindo system since you know that you're staying with the original artistic vision. But that doesn't preclude other from sharing a similar vision, even if the execution is different (e.g. A23, Spec, EMT, etc are all approaching fidelity from a similar point of view even if they aren't made by Shindo).

    It it may be that Chris at AF is this generation's Ken. Only time will tell. There's no doubt in my mind, however, that he is making far & away the most beautiful tables around. Others may disagree, but to my eyes he is doing something special that time will not forget. Hopefully the sound matches the beauty of the tables.
    Ken designed his 301 within the context of a system (which he also designed). Maybe Chris is this generation's 1/16 scale Ken. Which is not so bad. Hard to argue your point on the belt drive. I haven't heard it, but JH has the Spec line. He seems to like the table. Several other non Shindo tables have been found to work just fine. Notably, the Verdier also a belt/string drive. I'm totally interested in your report. To be clear, although I'm not a huge fan of Jeff Day as a writer, I have enormous respect for his taste in gear which aligns closely with my own (with some exceptions as noted above plus his 75,000 crossovers and the WE wire...all of which I attribute to his writing style and goals). I'd be inclined to pick up a stock 301 and plinth it cheap to compare if I were you. By the way, I think the wait for a Shibdo 301 is back down to about 6 months. You've made your call obviously, but I just wanted to throw that out for anyone else considering.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #52

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by Cucumber_jones View Post
    You had me for a while until you said Chris may be this generations ken. No way.
    Ha. But you've based that on what?

    Have you owned one of his tables?

    I'm not saying he is. He obviously isn't building electronics (to my knowledge), so you could easily argue that he isn't a "full-stack" engineer to borrow a descriptor from the software engineering world. But when it comes to vintage turntable restoration, he's at least up there in the conversation and doing it with a lot of different tables.

    Time marches on and there's no reason, in my opinion, to believe that someone won't come along and do something even more interesting than what Ken accomplished, even if the approach and end result is totally different.

    What I know is that Chris makes the most gorgeous stuff out there. I'll withhold my opinions on the sound until I can base it in experience. And I'll withhold sonic comparisons until I can also base those on real world extended listening experience. I'm only qualified to pass judgement on the aesthetics at this point.

  3. #53
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    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    I will say the same to you - based on what. Based on looks. Looks mean very little in audio. Very very little.

    1/16 ken, maybe but that is a stretch too.
    Chris

    Garrard 301, SME 2012r, EMT TSD15, A23 T2 Hommage SUT, Shindo Montille, Shindo Aurieges, Shindo ICs and Auditorium Speaker Cables, Auditorium A23 Hommage 755a Speakers.

  4. #54
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    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    I will change what I just said. Looks mean nothing in audio. Sonics are everything.
    Chris

    Garrard 301, SME 2012r, EMT TSD15, A23 T2 Hommage SUT, Shindo Montille, Shindo Aurieges, Shindo ICs and Auditorium Speaker Cables, Auditorium A23 Hommage 755a Speakers.

  5. #55

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Ok ok ok. Let's talk about the aesthetics. Beautiful work. Much respect to the designer for the skill to put this together. Maybe it's me, but I find his tables to be a little bling-y for my taste. I don't have a problem with "look at me design," but there is just something about the shiny finish, wide multi colored grain and chrome looking arm and platter that, taken together, is too much for me. Beautiful, in its way, but not for me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #56

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by briguy View Post
    OK, I've read the entire post you referenced. My apologies for the defensiveness. I guess I took issue with your early characterization of the T2 being a bad match for the Koetsu. Having lived with it, I can say that it makes plenty of magic. Like I said before, there may be better matches, but I was still getting phenomenal sound from the pairing.

    That said, I already knew the T2 Homage was a "perfect" fit for EMT carts which is why I already had one on order which I had mentioned in the prior post. But I was led to believe that theT2 Homage was a much better fit for the Koetsu than perhaps it is, which make me think that the new Miyajima Zero mono cart I have on the way might also be better served by a different SUT.

    I was already planning to get a second SUT, so perhaps I'll do that sooner than later now. Again, apologies for the defensiveness.
    After discussing this issue with Matt, perhaps I should rescind my apology. He does not seem to share the same feelings around spec matching that are being expressed in that other thread nor the sentiment that somehow the T2 Homage isn't a great (even best available) pairing for my Koetsu with the VR.

    He's of the camp that what works best on paper doesn't necessarily translate to the best sound and that it is as much art as science if the impedance matching is in the general ballpark.

  7. #57

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    Ok ok ok. Let's talk about the aesthetics. Beautiful work. Much respect to the designer for the skill to put this together. Maybe it's me, but I find his tables to be a little bling-y for my taste. I don't have a problem with "look at me design," but there is just something about the shiny finish, wide multi colored grain and chrome looking arm and platter that, taken together, is too much for me. Beautiful, in its way, but not for me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Understandable, but with Artisan Fidelity the choice of veneer is up to you, so you could choose a less "bling-y" veneer that better suits your taste. Thing is, I would have paid exactly the same for a less bling-y veneer, so why wouldn't I choose something that is beautiful to look at even if it wasn't also a functional piece of audio equipment?

    I'll just add that I was taken aback by the number of my friends who could care less about audio who were blown away by the pics I posted of the table as a work of art. Wasn't expecting that at all and I think it shows that others appreciate the beauty of what Chris does, perhaps more than the audio community itself.

    I've always been of the opinion that there's no reason something can't look AND sound nice.

    Cucumber seems to believe that paying any attention to aesthetics must take away from the sonics of a piece of equipment. I say it's not a zero sum game. I'm just not able to comment on the sonics yet.

    That said, Art Dudley is one of the few who have been able to live with both approaches and he raved about the AF table. I'm not saying that he is the final word at all. Just that he's one of the few qualified to pass any judgement on the strengths/weaknesses of both approaches.

  8. #58

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    Ok ok ok. Let's talk about the aesthetics. Beautiful work. Much respect to the designer for the skill to put this together. Maybe it's me, but I find his tables to be a little bling-y for my taste. I don't have a problem with "look at me design," but there is just something about the shiny finish, wide multi colored grain and chrome looking arm and platter that, taken together, is too much for me. Beautiful, in its way, but not for me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    One last thing... Chris can also do matte finishes if that's the main thing making his tables feel bling-y.

    If you're ever in the Bay Area and want to hear how his approach sounds in a Shindo system, hit me up.

  9. #59

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    I trust Art's opinion. That's pretty interesting. Enjoy the table!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #60
    Senior Member
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    Vancouver, BC
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    289

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    I said Chris is no Ken and I stand by that. It's nice if it looks good. But sound is what matters. You said he is the new Ken before let you even turned the player on. That makes it a foolish comment to me.
    Chris

    Garrard 301, SME 2012r, EMT TSD15, A23 T2 Hommage SUT, Shindo Montille, Shindo Aurieges, Shindo ICs and Auditorium Speaker Cables, Auditorium A23 Hommage 755a Speakers.

  11. #61
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    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    I said the T2 is made for the EMT. I never said it would not work well with other carts. I said it was made specifically for the EMT.
    Chris

    Garrard 301, SME 2012r, EMT TSD15, A23 T2 Hommage SUT, Shindo Montille, Shindo Aurieges, Shindo ICs and Auditorium Speaker Cables, Auditorium A23 Hommage 755a Speakers.

  12. #62

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by briguy View Post
    One last thing... Chris can also do matte finishes if that's the main thing making his tables feel bling-y.

    If you're ever in the Bay Area and want to hear how his approach sounds in a Shindo system, hit me up.
    It's just a lot going on for me. I can imagine other people liking it just fine. My tastes are just for something a tad more muted. Personal preference of course! For reference, my 401.







    And the teres, which looks positively DIY in this setting. But in a way I like. Again, personal choice for sure




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #63

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Much apologies for the low quality of the quick snaps.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #64

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by Cucumber_jones View Post
    I said Chris is no Ken and I stand by that. It's nice if it looks good. But sound is what matters. You said he is the new Ken before let you even turned the player on. That makes it a foolish comment to me.
    I most certainly did NOT say that. I said that it "may" be that he is and that only time will tell. I also specifically said that I couldn't comment since I hadn't heard the table and also wouldn't be able to comment on a comparison unless and until I had a chance to live with both tables. Not sure how you could be confused otherwise when my comments were pretty explicit.

  15. #65

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    The 401 is currently issued and unloved. Waiting for me to reassemble the phy-hp system.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  16. #66

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by Cucumber_jones View Post
    I said the T2 is made for the EMT. I never said it would not work well with other carts. I said it was made specifically for the EMT.
    I was referencing the other guy who was chiming in on that. Not you.

  17. #67

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    It's just a lot going on for me. I can imagine other people liking it just fine. My tastes are just for something a tad more muted. Personal preference of course! For reference, my 401.







    And the teres, which looks positively DIY in this setting. But in a way I like. Again, personal choice for sure




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I dig the look of these as well, especially the bottom. The 401's don't do it for me aesthetically and I haven't had a chance to hear one that's been rebuilt well. Hopefully one day.

  18. #68

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    The 401 is currently issued and unloved. Waiting for me to reassemble the phy-hp system.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm also curious about some of the big boy professional EMT tables that are out there, albeit in limited supply and mostly dubious condition. You know... the ones with motors that look like they could power a small VW Bug.

    Would be interesting to see someone tackle a modern rebuild of one of those.

  19. #69

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by briguy View Post
    I'm also curious about some of the big boy professional EMT tables that are out there, albeit in limited supply and mostly dubious condition. You know... the ones with motors that look like they could power a small VW Bug.

    Would be interesting to see someone tackle a modern rebuild of one of those.
    http://www.jpvanvliet.nl/index.html

    Rebuilt. Not modified. Excellent work. Limited supply.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #70

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    http://www.jpvanvliet.nl/index.html

    Rebuilt. Not modified. Excellent work. Limited supply.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ah, yes! Very cool.

  21. #71

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    http://www.jpvanvliet.nl/index.html

    Rebuilt. Not modified. Excellent work. Limited supply.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Have you had an opportunity to hear any of these types of "Pro" EMT tables?

  22. #72

    Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by briguy View Post
    Have you had an opportunity to hear any of these types of "Pro" EMT tables?
    I owned an EMT 930 for a while and stupidly sold it. I've stupidly sold many things... I felt when properly set up it easily bested my Garrards and Thorens that I had in the house at the same time. It is kind of like a hybrid of the strengths of the 124 and 301. A bit more resolution, perhaps, but lighter on its feet than the 301.

    But I got annoyed because it had a fiddily old ortofon arm and the options for putting my personal touch on it were limited. Typical audiophile. Always thinking I know better.

    If I could do it all over, looking over the vast landscape of my prior tables, I would probably keep a stock 301 and 124 around for fun. The 124 is easily the budget champ. It requires the least amount of work to sound great and is so lovely and compact. For the "big rig," to put it in audio guy terms (or the even more self-important "reference table"), I should have either just cut out all of the middlemen and gotten the Shindo 301 OR kept my Verdier.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  23. #73

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by Cucumber_jones View Post
    I will change what I just said. Looks mean nothing in audio. Sonics are everything.
    A wise man once wrote this long ago. I think it makes a lot of sense:

    To be successful at building an amp or speakers, I maintain you must PICTURE, in your mind, how you will look and how you will feel playing discs. I mean how it will feel to put the disc on/in the player. I mean how you think you will look in the room lighting, standing in front of the player and between the speakers. I mean try to imagine how you will feel putting on the disc and sitting in the chair, dreaming and carrying on, in the new world you have created. This is your time machine, your sanctuary. This is your religion. You are the wizard, the movie director, the conductor, the mad scientist! When you create your own music system, you create you own new music culture. I really like the feel of playing 78s. It takes me somewhere.

    If I could be remembered for only one contribution to audio it would be this: How the system looks, how the electronics and speakers interface with your room and lifestyle, how they are placed and how they are lit, is THE most important thing you can consider when planning a home building project. Please don't just build a box full of tubes and stick it on the carpet of your living room.

    Create a PLACE to go. Create a personal RITUAL. Integrate the process of soldering with the process of listening. Do not separate the process of building and planning from the process of living. Let the gluing and soldering lead you to notice the birds singing and the wind in the leaves. Create a hi-fi that reminds you to listen to the rain falling.

    I can only speak for myself, but nearly thirty years of building audio has forced me to finally reflect on the why more than the how. For me, audio is about becoming a more peaceful, cultured and reflective man. It is simply a process. In my dreams, I see myself as a lone Zen scholar sitting in a little wooden boat, fishing and painting pictures. When I get tired, I take a nap!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #74

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    http://www.jpvanvliet.nl/index.html

    Rebuilt. Not modified. Excellent work. Limited supply.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I love this guy's work though i have never heard one. My kind of aesthetic.
    Chris' AF work i find bling-y as well, but i deeply admire the attention to restoration detail and improvement. In my mind, he is setting the bar for idler table offerings for those who don't want the diy experience.

    I am one of those disappointed "lost sales" that was interested in Shindo parts but they were not for sale.
    Have rebuilt a 124 and 301 using the usual online suspects for parts and then got NormaHyleeTech ( now renamed Tonmechanik Berlin ) to do the plinths.
    http://www.norma-hylee-tech.de/html/produkte.html
    When i moved several years ago, they went into storage due to lack of space in the new place



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  25. #75

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    I owned an EMT 930 for a while and stupidly sold it. I've stupidly sold many things... I felt when properly set up it easily bested my Garrards and Thorens that I had in the house at the same time. It is kind of like a hybrid of the strengths of the 124 and 301. A bit more resolution, perhaps, but lighter on its feet than the 301.

    But I got annoyed because it had a fiddily old ortofon arm and the options for putting my personal touch on it were limited. Typical audiophile. Always thinking I know better.

    If I could do it all over, looking over the vast landscape of my prior tables, I would probably keep a stock 301 and 124 around for fun. The 124 is easily the budget champ. It requires the least amount of work to sound great and is so lovely and compact. For the "big rig," to put it in audio guy terms (or the even more self-important "reference table"), I should have either just cut out all of the middlemen and gotten the Shindo 301 OR kept my Verdier.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The Verdier is a gorgeous table. I haven't had a chance to hear one in person. Maybe one day.

    Attached Images Attached Images

  26. #76

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    A wise man once wrote this long ago. I think it makes a lot of sense:

    To be successful at building an amp or speakers, I maintain you must PICTURE, in your mind, how you will look and how you will feel playing discs. I mean how it will feel to put the disc on/in the player. I mean how you think you will look in the room lighting, standing in front of the player and between the speakers. I mean try to imagine how you will feel putting on the disc and sitting in the chair, dreaming and carrying on, in the new world you have created. This is your time machine, your sanctuary. This is your religion. You are the wizard, the movie director, the conductor, the mad scientist! When you create your own music system, you create you own new music culture. I really like the feel of playing 78s. It takes me somewhere.

    If I could be remembered for only one contribution to audio it would be this: How the system looks, how the electronics and speakers interface with your room and lifestyle, how they are placed and how they are lit, is THE most important thing you can consider when planning a home building project. Please don't just build a box full of tubes and stick it on the carpet of your living room.

    Create a PLACE to go. Create a personal RITUAL. Integrate the process of soldering with the process of listening. Do not separate the process of building and planning from the process of living. Let the gluing and soldering lead you to notice the birds singing and the wind in the leaves. Create a hi-fi that reminds you to listen to the rain falling.

    I can only speak for myself, but nearly thirty years of building audio has forced me to finally reflect on the why more than the how. For me, audio is about becoming a more peaceful, cultured and reflective man. It is simply a process. In my dreams, I see myself as a lone Zen scholar sitting in a little wooden boat, fishing and painting pictures. When I get tired, I take a nap!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Well said.

  27. #77
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Vancouver B.C.
    Posts
    175

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Maybe Chris is not this gen's Ken but he does build a beautiful table that sounds good. My Artisan built Thorens is not a Shindo competitor but for the price it sounds damn good.
    Chris's engineering is top notch as that's his background
    DALE

    Main system: Shindo Masseto, Shindo Cortese, Devore Orangutan O/96, Thorens TD125 MkII by Artisan Fidelity, Ortofon RS-309D, Ortofon SPU Classic, W4S modded Sonos, Metrum dac, Shindo
    and Auditorium A23 cables.
    Second system: Accuphase E-280, B & W CWM7.3 S2, W4S modded Sonos,Metrum dac, A23 cables
    Garage system: Yamaha A-S2100 integrated, JBL PRO 3677, Sonos thru Cambridge Dac Magic.

  28. #78

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    I also don't love the bling look on some of the plinths. Kevin and I are alike in that regard.

    I need a second turn table for a second location. Currently I have a Shindo 301 with both A23 Hommage and Shindo WE 618b step ups. I am considering either another Shindo 301 if available, an EMT 927 if room, Verdier possibly or one of Matt's recommendations.

  29. #79

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Speakers should not have 100dB with the Lafon GM70, so this amp is overpowered enough.

  30. #80

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by briguy View Post
    One last thing... Chris can also do matte finishes if that's the main thing making his tables feel bling-y.

    If you're ever in the Bay Area and want to hear how his approach sounds in a Shindo system, hit me up.
    are you in the Bay Area?!? I am.

  31. #81

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Quote Originally Posted by rower View Post
    I also don't love the bling look on some of the plinths. Kevin and I are alike in that regard.

    I need a second turn table for a second location. Currently I have a Shindo 301 with both A23 Hommage and Shindo WE 618b step ups. I am considering either another Shindo 301 if available, an EMT 927 if room, Verdier possibly or one of Matt's recommendations.

    Any thoughts?

  32. #82

    Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's

    Lencoheaven can help.

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Opinions on Lafon gm70's

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