Magico S5 mk2

[CharlesL]

Bodhi ordered S7 way back.

Myles, do you think the S7 can perform well in moderate sized room (of say ~16 x 18') ?


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[BlueFox]

If this S5 mk2 is a completely different speaker from the S5 then I don't think it will negatively affect S5 prices. Now if it were the same price as, or less than, the S5 then that would affect S5 resale values.

[Mark Jones]

If this S5 mk2 is a completely different speaker from the S5 then I don't think it will negatively affect S5 prices. Now if it were the same price as, or less than, the S5 then that would affect S5 resale values.

Agreed. they are better and more money. What's wrong with that?

In the home theatre/video world, products get replaced with new models that are better for less money. Not the case here.

The new price increase could actually stabilize used pricing on S5's and make them look like an even better deal. Maybe an exaggeration on my part but not by much.

[Bifwynne]

Any rumors or speculation about whether Magico will do a "Mk II" upgrade to the S3?

[Mike]

Any rumors or speculation about whether Magico will do a "Mk II" upgrade to the S3?

It would make sense....down the road.

[Rhapsody]

Any rumors or speculation about whether Magico will do a "Mk II" upgrade to the S3?

The word from Magico is there is no current plan to do a MKII version of the S3 at this time.

[Mike]

With all the talk of the S series, I wonder where this leaves the Q series? I think the Q1 is a real sleeper across the entire brand.

[Dafos]

Just wondering what now for the q1, q3 and q5 which sport the "ancient" nanotec mid and low frequency drivers and pure berrylium tweeter? Both q3 and q5 cost more than the s5mk 2 and S7 respectively but after reading about the technology introduced in the new S class drivers, one would conclude that these new models should easily outperform their "ancient" but more costly predecessors.

[Rhapsody]

As the new tweeter is probably most distinguishing, it doesn't make good sense not to include it. My interest would drop significantly without the new tweeter.



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The Magico press release was 100% accurate regarding the drivers that will be part of the S5 MKII, including the tweeter.

[BlueFox]

With all the talk of the S series, I wonder where this leaves the Q series? I think the Q1 is a real sleeper across the entire brand.

My guess is, except for the Q7, the rest will be discontinued. The reason is they are very labor intensive to manufacture. I would guess a new TOTL series to be introduced based on the M platform.

[audio.bill]

The Magico press release was 100% accurate regarding the drivers that will be part of the S5 MKII, including the tweeter.

Thanks for verifying this information, as I previously stated I suspected that the contradictory information posted elsewhere by Bodhi was incorrect.

[Rhapsody]

Thanks for verifying this information, as I previously stated I suspected that the contradictory information posted elsewhere by Bodhi was incorrect.

[asiufy]

With all the talk of the S series, I wonder where this leaves the Q series? I think the Q1 is a real sleeper across the entire brand.

Really? That's my least favourite Magico... Even the much maligned Q5 fares better, in my book...

[Elberoth]

It has been 2.5 years since I have my S5. I welcome the arrival of the MkII, as the changes seem worthwhile.

+1

[Bifwynne]

If this S5 mk2 is a completely different speaker from the S5 then I don't think it will negatively affect S5 prices. Now if it were the same price as, or less than, the S5 then that would affect S5 resale values.

Bud, ... FWIW, one data point in audiophile-land. I see one pair of S5s up for sale on Audiogon for $15,900. I'll keep an eye posted to see if this is a rogue or the start of a trend.

BIF

[Dpod4]

About to realist mine for $18,000. Premium gloss finish with grills.

[Elberoth]

Bud, ... FWIW, one data point in audiophile-land. I see one pair of S5s up for sale on Audiogon for $15,900. I'll keep an eye posted to see if this is a rogue or the start of a trend.

BIF

That is probably below the current market value. Seems someone is in a hurry. his loss. Post yours to make that pair even bigger bargain and sell quicker.

[Dpod4]

That is probably below the current market value. Seems someone is in a hurry. his loss. Post yours to make that pair even bigger bargain and sell quicker.

I have a buyer interested so am waiting weekend before I post


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[XV-1]

Bodhi ordered S7 way back.

Oh dear oh dear, what will Bodhi do?


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LOL. You guys are giving Bodhi visions of self grandeur .

From the horses mouth

[COLOR=#009900 !important]All kinds[/COLOR] of rumours seem to do be doing the rounds on audio forums these days around my alleged system upgrades, including one member of another forum who boldly claimed "Bodhi ordered S7 way back" (I hadn't). Speaking of which, I should say thank you to Rhapsody Audio for pointing out on said forum that my assertion that the S5 Mk2 would utilize a modified version of the current BE tweeter [COLOR=#009900 !important]used[/COLOR] in the S5, instead of a version of the Diamond-coated BE tweeter used in S7 was incorrect. As after much reflection today, i've decided to go for the S7 Mk2 instead & bring forward a planned upgrade of my Vitus SIA-025 integrated amp. What amps am I upgrading to you ask? You'll have to wait and see on that one. But I am sure this [COLOR=#009900 !important]approach[/COLOR] will result in much superior sound overall & give me a [COLOR=#009900 !important]lot[/COLOR] more flexibility :-).

[Mike]

Cool. I look forward to hearing the S5 mk2.


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[Myles B. Astor]

LOL. You guys are giving Bodhi visions of self grandeur .

From the horses mouth

I only wish I saved that email. The one where he said he was buying the new S7 on the basis of my having heard it at Magicos.

I do have a few other interesting colorful emails though, one of the best where he railed against me on another forum for being friends with Mike. Good one.

[BlueFox]

I received this message from him on another forum, and he mentioned he has no issues with it being posted here. Personally, I have no idea what he will do, nor does it matter to me.

"Hi Bud, I read the comments on Audioshark discussing my reaction to the S5Mk2, including Mike and Ken's speculation that I must be peeved about the update. Well the answer is i'm not peeved at all. I think it will be a really nice speaker, but to be honest I couldn't care less. I just sold my S5's and will be upgrading to S7's in the next couple of months."

[Mike]

I'm happy for him. I hope he enjoys them. The S7 seems like the nice step up from the S5. I look forward to hearing the S7 again.


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[Dpod4]

Have had a chance to compare S5 to 20.7 Magicos are more refined and deliberate and extended on top. Maggies are more a wall of sound, more finicky on placement, and more spaciously expansive. Magicos more quickly coherent left to right. Maggies more coherent front to back. Magicos more transparent ; Maggies more forgiving. Make sense?

[Dpod4]

IOW, if S5 and 20.7 had sex, their offspring would be perfection.

[Rhapsody]

Our S7's have 500 hours on them and our Vitus gear has 400 hours of playing time. If you heard this combination you probably (who knows???) would not have any reservations about the S7's being a world class performer, literally in all respects with no deficiencies.

With either a $13K Vitus RI-100 integrated or 100 Watt monos you get a BIG 3D holographic soundstage, world class bass that goes "all the way down" and has luxurious texture, high resolution, midrange seems like a direct mic feed....as in clear and true to the original recording, "weighty/full bodied sound while transparent at the same time, extended top end but not bright at all, depth way out the back wall if it's in the recording, easy/non fussy placement, very nice low volume level listening with no loss of dynamic contrasts, completely balanced across the entire frequency spectrum with no humps or voids at any frequency, side and very far details in the soundstage are just as present as the center images and seemingly unlimited volume capability with no abnormalities. Personally I am amazed at the S7's ability to "bring the instruments and voices into the room.....lifelike and real". Of course it's the entire system that allows is responsible, but the S7's allow it to happen.

Of course personal preference is all that matters to each individual so many people will pick, Rockport, Avantgarde, Focal, Wilson and a hundred more for all types of reasons (company, aesthetics, room matching, matching to existing electronics, resale considerations, forum acceptance, friend acceptance, WAF, and on and on) but I don't think anyone that hears S7's in a "locked in" environment could possibly say that they did not produce world class sound.

[Bifwynne]

Our S7's have 500 hours on them and our Vitus gear has 400 hours of playing time. If you heard this combination you probably (who knows???) would not have any reservations about the S7's being a world class performer, literally in all respects with no deficiencies.

With either a $13K Vitus RI-100 integrated or 100 Watt monos you get a BIG 3D holographic soundstage, world class bass that goes "all the way down" and has luxurious texture, high resolution, midrange seems like a direct mic feed....as in clear and true to the original recording, "weighty/full bodied sound while transparent at the same time, extended top end but not bright at all, depth way out the back wall if it's in the recording, easy/non fussy placement, very nice low volume level listening with no loss of dynamic contrasts, completely balanced across the entire frequency spectrum with no humps or voids at any frequency, side and very far details in the soundstage are just as present as the center images and seemingly unlimited volume capability with no abnormalities.
...

(Underlined quote added.)

Rhapsody, I have asked a number of knowledgeable folks whether my amp, an ARC Ref 150 SE (150 wpc into 4 ohms), had enough juice to meaningfully drive Magico S5s. Your underlined quote permits the inference that the answer might be YES. Any views?

Also, there is a pair of S3 for sale on Audigon. I wonder how my amp would do with the S3s?? Any thoughts?

Thanks.

BIF

[Rhapsody]

(Underlined quote added.)

Rhapsody, I have asked a number of knowledgeable folks whether my amp, an ARC Ref 150 SE (150 wpc into 4 ohms), had enough juice to meaningfully drive Magico S5s. Your underlined quote permits the inference that the answer might be YES. Any views?

Also, there is a pair of S3 for sale on Audigon. I wonder how my amp would do with the S3s?? Any thoughts?

Thanks.

BIF

Hi Bif, How big is your room?

The Vitus 100W monos are very strong. I have driven both S5's and S3's to 95db levels in a 18' X 35' X 11' room with both Absolare 50 Watt SET's and Kondo Kagura 50 Watt SET's with no issues. My gut would say that your Ref 150's would drive either the S5's or S3's BUT I have never tried the combination so ????. I personally do NOT find either the S5's or the S3's very hard to drive.

Put it this way if someone asked me, as a Magico dealer to send them a pair of S3's or S5's for a home demo and the had a Ref 150SE I would not hesitate to send them either speaker for a home trial as I believe, if there room was not gigantic, and they were ok with 90 db constant with 95 db peaks, the Ref 150SE would produce very good results.

We also drove the S5's and S3's with 90 Watt Absolare PP amps and they had no problem whatsoever driving either speaker with authority and slam.

The only "gotcha" is that if you connected a 300 Watt either SS or tube amp you will get either the S3 or S5 to produce greater dynamics/slam than say with the Ref 150 SE.

I think you would have sonic bliss with the S3's that are on AG and your Ref 150 SE.....but again with a room less than the size I noted on our room. With a bigger room, you probably would do better with S5's.

[Dpod4]

I have tried many (6-7) tube and SS amps with my S5 speakers. Wattage is not determining factor - impedance matching is.

[Rhapsody]

I have tried many (6-7) tube and SS amps with my S5 speakers. Wattage is not determining factor - impedance matching is.

Yes, your amp must be able to drive a 4ohm load, but the S5's don't dip down below 3 ohms. I believe the Ref 150 SE can drive a 3 ohm dip, with a nominal 4 ohm load with no problem.

The S3's do dip down to 2ohms, but I have never seen an issue with the S3's and the 50 Watt SET's don't really like ultra low impedances. Possibly though the amps that we have used were able to handle the 2 ohm or 3 ohm load at the one certain frequency, I think somewhere between 50Hz and 100Hz.

Btw, when we tried ALL of the mentioned amps (not the Vitus amps) on the Raidho D3's we had no luck whatsoever, they could not handle the load on the D3's. That has something to do with why the Magico S series seemed "easy to drive" in our environment.

Bif, ask ARC how the REF 150SE will do with a 2ohm or 3ohm minimum load, but a more nominal 4 ohm load across the majority of the spectrum.

Here is a review of the REF 150SE that is driving the Wilson Sasha 2 which dips down to 2ohms (about the same as the S3) with no issues in driving this load.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/aud...nce_150_se.htm

[Elberoth]

Many ppl match the Wilson Sasha mk1 and 2 with the ARC75, so the bigger ARC150 should be fine.

[Bifwynne]

Yes, your amp must be able to drive a 4ohm load, but the S5's don't dip down below 3 ohms. I believe the Ref 150 SE can drive a 3 ohm dip, with a nominal 4 ohm load with no problem.

The S3's do dip down to 2ohms, but I have never seen an issue with the S3's and the 50 Watt SET's don't really like ultra low impedances. Possibly though the amps that we have used were able to handle the 2 ohm or 3 ohm load at the one certain frequency, I think somewhere between 50Hz and 100Hz.

*****

Bif, ask ARC how the REF 150SE will do with a 2ohm or 3ohm minimum load, but a more nominal 4 ohm load across the majority of the spectrum.

*****

Rhapsody,

ARC was one of the sources I alluded to. ARC had some concern whether the Magicos might be too difficult a load for the Ref 150 SE.

I checked out the S5 electrical properties here: http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?...nts&Itemid=153

While the impedance graph doesn't look too bad, it does drop in the 3 ohm range in the deep bass. By itself, I surmise the Ref 150 SE could manage that load off the 4 ohm taps. What gives me a little more pause, however, is the negative phase angle gets kinda' ugly south of 50Hz.

I don't recall seeing specs on the S3. If the speakers weren't so darn heavy, I would love to demo them in my house on my gear. There's an S3 for sale right now for $13,900. Not sure that is a good price or not.

Thanks.

BIF

[Mike]

BIF- you obviously love the ARC amp, why not find a tube friendly speaker for them? Nola shows great with ARC. Sonus Faber and Wilson too. You may even want to look at the Focal Scala V2 - very tube friendly.


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[PeterA]

My guess is, except for the Q7, the rest will be discontinued. The reason is they are very labor intensive to manufacture. I would guess a new TOTL series to be introduced based on the M platform.

Interesting comment. Speculation was that they discontinued the Mini II because it was so labor intensive to manufacture. I would love to see a Mini M based on the M Pro.

[PeterA]

Now a S1 mk2? Wow. They sure are busy turning out the new models. I'm curious, how many speakers has Magico introduced since Harman introduced the Revel Salon 2 in 2006? I count:

M6
V3
M5
V2
Ultimate
Q1
Q3
Q5
Q7
S1
S3
S5
S7
Q7 mk2
S5 mk2
S1 mk2
M Projects...

17 speakers according to my calculations. Wow.

That's quite a long list, Mike. But it is not as looooong as your signature. BTW, you forgot the Mini and Mini II.

[Rhapsody]

Rhapsody,

ARC was one of the sources I alluded to. ARC had some concern whether the Magicos might be too difficult a load for the Ref 150 SE.

I checked out the S5 electrical properties here: http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?...nts&Itemid=153

While the impedance graph doesn't look too bad, it does drop in the 3 ohm range in the deep bass. By itself, I surmise the Ref 150 SE could manage that load off the 4 ohm taps. What gives me a little more pause, however, is the negative phase angle gets kinda' ugly south of 50Hz.

I don't recall seeing specs on the S3. If the speakers weren't so darn heavy, I would love to demo them in my house on my gear. There's an S3 for sale right now for $13,900. Not sure that is a good price or not.

Thanks.

BIF

To me $13,900 is as inexpensive as you are going to find for a VG condition S3 at this time. My guess is that they will work great, but like Mike said, if you are concerned find a more tube friendly speaker. There are many choices out there, several that Mike has mentioned.

My comments are only from playing the Absolare 50 Watt SET's on the S3's and they light the room up. I would think that your 150 Watt PP's would not have an issue, but again, if concerned then pick a tube friendly speaker.

[Mike]

That's quite a long list, Mike. But it is not as looooong as your signature. BTW, you forgot the Mini and Mini II.

Ha! True. But the Mini/Mini II, I believe came out before 2006. No?

[Alpinist]

Yes, your amp must be able to drive a 4ohm load, but the S5's don't dip down below 3 ohms. I believe the Ref 150 SE can drive a 3 ohm dip, with a nominal 4 ohm load with no problem.

The S3's do dip down to 2ohms, but I have never seen an issue with the S3's and the 50 Watt SET's don't really like ultra low impedances. Possibly though the amps that we have used were able to handle the 2 ohm or 3 ohm load at the one certain frequency, I think somewhere between 50Hz and 100Hz.

Btw, when we tried ALL of the mentioned amps (not the Vitus amps) on the Raidho D3's we had no luck whatsoever, they could not handle the load on the D3's. That has something to do with why the Magico S series seemed "easy to drive" in our environment.

Bif, ask ARC how the REF 150SE will do with a 2ohm or 3ohm minimum load, but a more nominal 4 ohm load across the majority of the spectrum.

Here is a review of the REF 150SE that is driving the Wilson Sasha 2 which dips down to 2ohms (about the same as the S3) with no issues in driving this load.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/aud...nce_150_se.htm

Bob,

I thought the Absolare 50 Watt SET drove the Raidho D3 beautifully when I heard them together. I have not found the D3 to be a difficult speaker to drive at all.

Ken

[Mike]

Bob,

I thought the Absolare 50 Watt SET drove the Raidho D3 beautifully when I heard them together. I have not found the D3 to be a difficult speaker to drive at all.

Ken

Ken - I had this combo on my D3's and LOVED it.

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/6...pre-amplifier/


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[Alpinist]

Ken - I had this combo on my D3's and LOVED it.

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/6...pre-amplifier/


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Mike,

I haven't plotted the impedance curve of the D3's but according to Raidho it is greater than 5.8 ohms, which would make them a pretty easy load for an amp to drive. David's experience running the D3 with lower powered amps also seemed to bare this out as he had excellent success with it.

Best,
Ken

[Rhapsody]

Bob,

I thought the Absolare 50 Watt SET drove the Raidho D3 beautifully when I heard them together. I have not found the D3 to be a difficult speaker to drive at all.

Ken

Ken,

You listen at low levels, or at least when you listened to the D3's/Absolare at my place you did. If I remember correctly in the 60db to 70db type levels, maybe 75db but I don't think much louder than that. I am talking about driving the D3's with the Absolare SET's at say 90db with 95 db peaks. At those levels it is the tweeters that suck the current from the amps. You can start to hear distortion in a female voice if really pushing the speaker at the 90db + levels.

Other than pushing the D3's with the 50 Watt SET's above 90db level (and this is in a 700 sq. ft. space), the sound was very, very good.

On the flip side I could drive either the S3's or S5's with the Absolare SET's easily to 95db constant with 100 db levels in the same big space with no problem or distortion. That is why I can't see the REF150SE, which is 150 Watts of Push Pull vs 50 Watts of SET power, not being able to drive them.

Although I have no skin in this game, just trying to help BIF out.

[Rhapsody]

Rhapsody,

ARC was one of the sources I alluded to. ARC had some concern whether the Magicos might be too difficult a load for the Ref 150 SE.

I checked out the S5 electrical properties here: http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?...nts&Itemid=153

While the impedance graph doesn't look too bad, it does drop in the 3 ohm range in the deep bass. By itself, I surmise the Ref 150 SE could manage that load off the 4 ohm taps. What gives me a little more pause, however, is the negative phase angle gets kinda' ugly south of 50Hz.

I don't recall seeing specs on the S3. If the speakers weren't so darn heavy, I would love to demo them in my house on my gear. There's an S3 for sale right now for $13,900. Not sure that is a good price or not.

Thanks.

BIF

BIF,

The net of it all to me is that if you are "hooked" on trying Magico speakers, then getting those S3's on AG, is a good way to test it all out. If you don't like the combination you can always sell the S3's for very close to what you pay for them. I would be really surprised if your REF can't drive them. Of course there will be spl limitations depending on how loud you play and what the size of your room is.

Either buy the used S3's or look for a tube friendly speaker instead....my two cents.

[Bifwynne]

BIF- you obviously love the ARC amp, why not find a tube friendly speaker for them? Nola shows great with ARC. Sonus Faber and Wilson too. You may even want to look at the Focal Scala V2 - very tube friendly.


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Thanks Mike. I will keep all the speakers you mentioned on my short list.

As an fyi, I spoke with Kal (ARC customer service tech rep) today about an unrelated matter. However, the issue of speaker matching came up. Kal said he would talk with Dave Gordon about possible speaker suggestions for me. I bet he hits on the same speakers as you.

Kal asked me to draw a floor plan for my room to help the process along. I plan on doing that within a day or two. I'll let you know what he comes up with.

Mike, I gotta' tell ya' that speaker selection is one of the hardest thing to do. Most speaker I'd be interested in weigh in at 100++ pounds. And I am circumspect about buying from a dealer unless I can match up the speaker being demo'ed with an ARC amp like mine. Also, there is always the room issue.

Seems to me the best way to demo speakers is in my sound room. Problem is there a are few dealers near me who will accommodate that request.

Bruce

[Bifwynne]

BIF,

The net of it all to me is that if you are "hooked" on trying Magico speakers, then getting those S3's on AG, is a good way to test it all out. If you don't like the combination you can always sell the S3's for very close to what you pay for them. I would be really surprised if your REF can't drive them. Of course there will be spl limitations depending on how loud you play and what the size of your room is.

Either buy the used S3's or look for a tube friendly speaker instead....my two cents.

Thanks for the advice Rhapsody. As I mentioned to Mike, I am working with ARC and will collate the various suggestions and make a decision. I just measured out the metes and bounds of my sound room/basement. The dimensions are so weird, I'm thrilled my electronics even turn on.

Btw, I am listening the some tracks on Linda Ronstadt's 3 record box set where she's singing old standards, accompanied by the Nelson Riddle Orchestra. Equipment and sound room warts and blemishes aside, the LPs sounds heavenly.

[Dpod4]

Don't buy the S3s. I will sell you my S5s for $15,900

[the professor]

I agree that Magicos are a lot easier to drive to loud volumes than the Raidho. I would rate both as being in the medium range of "hard to drive" at low to medium volumes, but at high volumes - Magico are still in the medium range and Raidho are in the difficult range of "hard to drive".

I heard the ARC control the original Wilson Sashas very very well. And with their low impedance dip, are not an easy speaker to drive at all.

Ken,

You listen at low levels, or at least when you listened to the D3's/Absolare at my place you did. If I remember correctly in the 60db to 70db type levels, maybe 75db but I don't think much louder than that. I am talking about driving the D3's with the Absolare SET's at say 90db with 95 db peaks. At those levels it is the tweeters that suck the current from the amps. You can start to hear distortion in a female voice if really pushing the speaker at the 90db + levels.

Other than pushing the D3's with the 50 Watt SET's above 90db level (and this is in a 700 sq. ft. space), the sound was very, very good.

On the flip side I could drive either the S3's or S5's with the Absolare SET's easily to 95db constant with 100 db levels in the same big space with no problem or distortion. That is why I can't see the REF150SE, which is 150 Watts of Push Pull vs 50 Watts of SET power, not being able to drive them.

Although I have no skin in this game, just trying to help BIF out.

[the professor]

double post

[Rhapsody]

I agree that Magicos are a lot easier to drive to loud volumes than the Raidho. I would rate both as being in the medium range of "hard to drive" at low to medium volumes, but at high volumes - Magico are still in the medium range and Raidho are in the difficult range of "hard to drive".

I heard the ARC control the original Wilson Sashas very very well. And with their low impedance dip, are not an easy speaker to drive at all.

Jock,

That's a good way to put it!

[PeterA]

Ha! True. But the Mini/Mini II, I believe came out before 2006. No?

I thought it was in 2006. Either way, I had thought the M6 metal behemoth came out before the Mini.

[LVB]

Spent few hours listening to the S7 in Brussels New Music show. I think that the S7 in a in a different league all together then the current S5, I can't imagine anyone missing it. Truly a magnificent piece (and I am used to the Q3). Extremely smooth, rich and full without losing any resolution throughout the entire spectrum. The volume played was staggering but zero fatigue. These are one special speakers. If the new Mk2 S5 will be similar, it should make for hell of a product.