Acoustic Room Treatments vs DSP

[bonzo]

Boxes can be put before or after the preamp. You put digital in into a box, and then send to pre, or put a TT into the pre, then the pre into the Room Correction box, which then goes into the power amp.

I have heard a top end Linn TT with the Trinnov, and Marty, whose room is usually rated amongst the top ones in the US (certainly the best I have been in by far), puts his Goldmund Studio into his VTL pre, which then goes into his modded TacT, that then goes into his Spectral. Like with all cases hifi, one should not assume this won't work without actually trying it out.

[Alpinist]

Ken - the challenge with this approach for me, would be how to deal with vinyl/R2R.

I like a product like this:

DEQX High Definition Audio

Output from Preamp into the DEQX PreMate+ and then from PreMate+ into amps.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your response. The DEQX PreMate+ looks like a terrific high-end solution for those with vinyl. Since I'm a digital only guy, if I go the DSP route, it would probably be through computer software or a box solution that goes before the DAC.

Best,
Ken

[bonzo]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your response. The DEQX PreMate+ looks like a terrific high-end solution for those with vinyl. Since I'm a digital only guy, if I go the DSP route, it would probably be through computer software or a box solution that goes before the DAC.

Best,
Ken

If it's digital only, best to buy Dirac, Acourate, or Audiolense. The latter two are more complex, the first one is easier. I heard that Audiolense is the best from those who have used all three, but I am thinking of downloading Acourate to my CAPS like PC, because the designer lives in Europe and one day I can just fly him over to tweak my stuff up. That day is far off though, since I have to get my sh*t together before.

[wisnon]

No doubt you can use your own speakers but then again you have to buy their electronics for it to be effective. And $$$ well we know how costly Goldmund is. That little Dirac software package and a quality mic (calibrated) is looking cheaper all the time.

No doubt Dirac is far cheaper, but Dirac does not give you SAMification.

You could get Devialet electronics with an already SAMed speaker and then run Dirac as a far more cost effective solution...or wait for the Kii 3!

Does Dirac adjust for the time domain? Kii does and Goldmund is obsessed withe the Time domain. See my youtube link in this thread. Like Frank Muller watches, i think they consider themselves the "master of time". LoL

[Alpinist]

No doubt Dirac is far cheaper, but Dirac does not give you SAMification.

You could get Devialet electronics with an already SAMed speaker and then run Dirac as a far more cost effective solution...or wait for the Kii 3!

Does Dirac adjust for the time domain? Kii does and Goldmund is obsessed withe the Time domain. See my youtube link in this thread. Like Frank Muller watches, i think they consider themselves the "master of time". LoL

Hi Norman and Bonzo,

If I went for a digital only box that goes in front of the DAC, I would like one that utilizes microphone room equalization. Is there such a beast out there?

Best,
Ken

[bonzo]

Hi Norman and Bonzo,

If I went for a digital only box that goes in front of the DAC, I would like one that utilizes microphone room equalization. Is there such a beast out there?

Best,
Ken

Ken, contact Michael (dallasjustice) on WBF. He went through a big learning and discovery process over the last couple of years on Dirac, Acourate and Audiolense using a PC and dac. Nyall Mellor, who is a consultant, also can help.

[asiufy]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your response. The DEQX PreMate+ looks like a terrific high-end solution for those with vinyl. Since I'm a digital only guy, if I go the DSP route, it would probably be through computer software or a box solution that goes before the DAC.

Best,
Ken

Hi Ken,

We just picked up DEQX as a line, and did our first installation, with incredible results, so I can tell you a little bit about it.
It works as a DAC and a preamp in your system. If you're digital only, you can use the DEQX by itself, or still have the option of using an external DAC.
Here's a page that explains it better:

DEQX High Definition Audio

The cool thing is that you can have a DEQX tech do the first setup for you, and walk you through the process of speaker calibration and then room compensation/adjustment. From them on, you can tweak to your heart's desire

Of course, for analog/vinyl, you'll have to go through an A/D stage, built-in on the DEQX.

Hope this helps

[wisnon]

Hi Norman and Bonzo,

If I went for a digital only box that goes in front of the DAC, I would like one that utilizes microphone room equalization. Is there such a beast out there?

Best,
Ken

AFAIK, the box approach will always introduce a ADC and DAC stage, so if you have a reference Dac, it will be contrained by this. Software approach is the only way to circumvent this.

Dallas Justice used to tout Dirac, but i think he moved on to Akourate. He is always changng though, so hard to keep up with him. LoL

DSPeaker will release a bigger all singing, all dancing version of the Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core very soon...a matter of weeks, IIRC.
Edit:
DSPeakers US Distributor Tim Ryan of SIMPLIFI Audio will show the new DSPeaker X4 room correction 4 channel preamp/DAC. This new $3500.00 processor is a step up over the Class A rated $1,200.00 DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 with 24.192K processing, DSD playback, larger internal power supply, more inputs and exceptional new patented headphone circuitry. The X4 will also feature a NEW patent pending groundbreaking automatic sub-woofer integration technology. The X4 will add $2000.00 to the show system price when it ships in the 4^th quarter.

[bonzo]

He moved from Acourate to Audiolense. I wouldn't worry about putting the dac before or after. I have put a Trinnov after the preamp, with Lampi Big 7 going into the preamp, and compared it with Linn top level TT and Linn streamer. All 3 retained their character through Trinnov and I got different sounds. The Lampi was great. And I already stated Marty's example, he has an EMM Dac 2x and Goldmund Studio.

I will use Acourate simply because the designer lives in Europe, so I can fly him over one day. if you have a Trinnov or DeqX specialist near you, use that. Especially if you are a newbie

[wisnon]

Bonzo, you will agree that the software approach will be more "purist" though, if you want to retain as much of your favourite Dac as possible.

The new DSperker looks verty interesting.
The AM 2.0 was very good for bass issues and of course comes with mic in the package. Very turnkey approach..



translated from Swedish:
New gadget from DSPeaker at once! This looks very interesting until I saw the price.

:-)

:-)

Found Online

Anti-Mode X4 presentation of the Hi-Fi Expo 2014

Anti-Mode X4 presentation of the Hi-Fi Expo 2014

Golden Ear-winning home-grown Anti-Mode product line expands the collection are placed in the tip of a novelty item.

Golden Ear-winning home-grown anti-Mode product line Expand the collection are friendlyness in the tip of a novelty item.

Anti-Mode X4 is a modern stereo system, the heart, which may be the speakers and other equipment to go beyond the usual level of even the most difficult acoustic conditions.

Anti-Fashion X4 is a modern stereo system, the heart, Which May be the speakers and other equipment to go beyond the usual level of even the most Difficult acoustic conditions.

This is a real domestic audio expertise feat!

This is a real domestication audio expertise feat!

The menu includes such a feature.

The menu includes Such a feature.

high-quality Hi-Res / DSD Burr-Brown D / A converters, adjustable 2.2 crossover network, extensive connectivity and a fully revised Anti-Mode 3.0 Room Correction.

high-quality Hi-Res / DSD Burr-Brown D / A converters, adjustable 2.2 crossover network, Extensive connectivity and a fully revised Anti-Mode 3.0 Room Correction.

Anti-Mode X4 has been specially developed two-channel audio hardware performance optimization.

Anti-Fashion X4 HAS BEEN specially developed two-channel audio hardware performance optimization.

In addition to the main speaker system can be connected to one or two of the subwoofer, and connect them to the audio image seamlessly.

In addition to the main speaker systems can be connected to one or two of the subwoofer, and connect them to the audio image seamlessly.

Making room correction is now easier and more convenient than ever before.

Making room correction Is Now Easier and more convenient than ever before.

DSPeaker philosophy, all you need is included in the sales package, including a fully renovated in microphone and mikrofoniständi.

DSPeaker philosophy, all you need is included in the sales package, including a fully renovated in microphone and mikrofoniständi.

The computer or other equipment is required.

The computer or other equipment is required.

System ease of use is as usual, paid special attention to making top-level sound achievement does not require user knowledge or expertise.

System ease of use ice as usual, paid special attention to making top-level sound achievement Does not Require user knowledge or expertise.

Of course, not the needs of demanding enthusiasts have not been forgotten.

Of course, not the needs of demanding enthusiasts have not been forgotten.

There is automatic in addition to a wider palette of tools which can be used to shape the sound to suit your preferences with always the smallest nyanssia all the way down.

There is automatic in addition to a Wider palette of tools Which Can Be Used to shape the sound to suit your preferences with always the smallest nyanssia all the way down.

Anti-Mode X4 will be next presented with the Helsinki Fair Centre Hi-Fi Expo Exhibiting 31.10-2.11.2014.

Anti-Fashion X4 will be next presented with the Helsinki Fair Centre Hi-Fi Expo Exhibiting 31.10-2.11.2014.

You can find us room H405 and H403.

You can find us room H405 and H403.

Sales will begin in 2015. The preliminary cost estimate is about 2995 € (including VAT).

Sales will begin in 2015. The preliminary cost estimate is about € 2,995 (including VAT).

3 x Coaxial input

3 x Coaxial Input

3 x Toslink input

3 x Toslink input

2 x Analog RCA input

2 x Analog RCA inputs

1 x XLR analog input

1 x XLR analog input

USB Audio

USB Audio

USB

USB

Thermometer (5D Anti-Mode™)

Thermometer (5D Anti-Mode ™)

Service port

Service port

12V trigger output

12V trigger output

2.2 Analog RCA output

2.2 RCA Analog output

2.2 Balanced XLR output

2.2 Balanced XLR output

1 x Coaxial output

1 x Coaxial output

1 x Toslink output

1 x Toslink output

6.3mm Headphone output (headphone-DSP, EQ, X-feed / HRTF process, render)

6.3mm Headphone output (headphone-in DSP, EQ, X-feed / HRTF process, render)

Balanced XLR 48V "phantom" microphone input

Balanced XLR 48V "phantom" microphone input

Bluetooth

Bluetooth

[bonzo]

Bonzo, you will agree that the software approach will be more "purist" though, if you want to retain as much of your favourite Dac as possible.

The new DSperker looks verty interesting.
The AM 2.0 was very good for bass issues and of course comes with mic in the package. Very turnkey approach..

I would agree that only theoretically. If you set it up through software without expertise and I set it up through a box with expertise, the latter will sound better. My point is these things, unlike plugging in an amp/dac are so complex for a newbie that best to take the approach where you have expert help. All sound great.

[wisnon]

Cool.

Lots of chatter here:
AudiogoN Forums: Room correction - what device works best?

DSpeaker X4 article here in French with pictures:
http://www.hdfever.fr/2015/05/18/dspeaker-antimode-x4/

[JDLaudio]

Bonzo, you will agree that the software approach will be more "purist" though, if you want to retain as much of your favourite Dac as possible.

The new DSperker looks verty interesting.
The AM 2.0 was very good for bass issues and of course comes with mic in the package. Very turnkey approach..



translated from Swedish:
New gadget from DSPeaker at once! This looks very interesting until I saw the price.

:-)

:-)

Found Online

Anti-Mode X4 presentation of the Hi-Fi Expo 2014

Anti-Mode X4 presentation of the Hi-Fi Expo 2014

Golden Ear-winning home-grown Anti-Mode product line expands the collection are placed in the tip of a novelty item.

Golden Ear-winning home-grown anti-Mode product line Expand the collection are friendlyness in the tip of a novelty item.

Anti-Mode X4 is a modern stereo system, the heart, which may be the speakers and other equipment to go beyond the usual level of even the most difficult acoustic conditions.

Anti-Fashion X4 is a modern stereo system, the heart, Which May be the speakers and other equipment to go beyond the usual level of even the most Difficult acoustic conditions.

This is a real domestic audio expertise feat!

This is a real domestication audio expertise feat!

The menu includes such a feature.

The menu includes Such a feature.

high-quality Hi-Res / DSD Burr-Brown D / A converters, adjustable 2.2 crossover network, extensive connectivity and a fully revised Anti-Mode 3.0 Room Correction.

high-quality Hi-Res / DSD Burr-Brown D / A converters, adjustable 2.2 crossover network, Extensive connectivity and a fully revised Anti-Mode 3.0 Room Correction.

Anti-Mode X4 has been specially developed two-channel audio hardware performance optimization.

Anti-Fashion X4 HAS BEEN specially developed two-channel audio hardware performance optimization.

In addition to the main speaker system can be connected to one or two of the subwoofer, and connect them to the audio image seamlessly.

In addition to the main speaker systems can be connected to one or two of the subwoofer, and connect them to the audio image seamlessly.

Making room correction is now easier and more convenient than ever before.

Making room correction Is Now Easier and more convenient than ever before.

DSPeaker philosophy, all you need is included in the sales package, including a fully renovated in microphone and mikrofoniständi.

DSPeaker philosophy, all you need is included in the sales package, including a fully renovated in microphone and mikrofoniständi.

The computer or other equipment is required.

The computer or other equipment is required.

System ease of use is as usual, paid special attention to making top-level sound achievement does not require user knowledge or expertise.

System ease of use ice as usual, paid special attention to making top-level sound achievement Does not Require user knowledge or expertise.

Of course, not the needs of demanding enthusiasts have not been forgotten.

Of course, not the needs of demanding enthusiasts have not been forgotten.

There is automatic in addition to a wider palette of tools which can be used to shape the sound to suit your preferences with always the smallest nyanssia all the way down.

There is automatic in addition to a Wider palette of tools Which Can Be Used to shape the sound to suit your preferences with always the smallest nyanssia all the way down.

Anti-Mode X4 will be next presented with the Helsinki Fair Centre Hi-Fi Expo Exhibiting 31.10-2.11.2014.

Anti-Fashion X4 will be next presented with the Helsinki Fair Centre Hi-Fi Expo Exhibiting 31.10-2.11.2014.

You can find us room H405 and H403.

You can find us room H405 and H403.

Sales will begin in 2015. The preliminary cost estimate is about 2995 € (including VAT).

Sales will begin in 2015. The preliminary cost estimate is about € 2,995 (including VAT).

3 x Coaxial input

3 x Coaxial Input

3 x Toslink input

3 x Toslink input

2 x Analog RCA input

2 x Analog RCA inputs

1 x XLR analog input

1 x XLR analog input

USB Audio

USB Audio

USB

USB

Thermometer (5D Anti-Mode™)

Thermometer (5D Anti-Mode ™)

Service port

Service port

12V trigger output

12V trigger output

2.2 Analog RCA output

2.2 RCA Analog output

2.2 Balanced XLR output

2.2 Balanced XLR output

1 x Coaxial output

1 x Coaxial output

1 x Toslink output

1 x Toslink output

6.3mm Headphone output (headphone-DSP, EQ, X-feed / HRTF process, render)

6.3mm Headphone output (headphone-in DSP, EQ, X-feed / HRTF process, render)

Balanced XLR 48V "phantom" microphone input

Balanced XLR 48V "phantom" microphone input

Bluetooth

Bluetooth

Thanks Norman. As always, you bring a wealth of info to the subject. Sortware DSP is definitely a more pure path of correction. But it certainly has a stiff learning curve. Another product I have used it called Coneq from Real Sound Labs. They offer both software and hardware paths of DSP correction. Plus you can get product offering 4096 to nearly 10,000 taps of separate frequencies !!! Very powerful and adaptable. But I believe they only operate up to 96k, like many others do. I would prefer a system that can handle up to 192k files.

I spoke with "Dallas" several months ago, and thought he was going with Acourate over Audiolense ?? He said Audiolense was a bit easier to program, but Acourate had more capabilities for his use. Maybe he has changed his mind ? Thankfully, there is much more R & D being invested in DSP these days. For this, I am thrilled.

Jerry-

[wisnon]

Nice, Jerry. I have never seen that offering before. 24/96 is a lot though, so that alone would not put me off.
DSPeaker uses a form of artificial intelligence in their DRC software and a powerful processor. They are a subsidiary of VLSI Inc, so hardware is in their DNA too. Their new 24/192 will be interesting and as with the AM 2.0, they have dumbed down the process, so that the learning curve is very smooth and shallow.

Miska (Mr HQ Player), says he does DRC in DSD. I started a threat at CA to see if he will elaborate more, as that too is interesting.

[CPP]

No doubt Dirac is far cheaper, but Dirac does not give you SAMification.

You could get Devialet electronics with an already SAMed speaker and then run Dirac as a far more cost effective solution...or wait for the Kii 3!

Does Dirac adjust for the time domain? Kii does and Goldmund is obsessed withe the Time domain. See my youtube link in this thread. Like Frank Muller watches, i think they consider themselves the "master of time". LoL

Norman items like Devialet are way out of my budget. But in reading the Dirac live technical description it appears they address time domain, not sure how it works. Technical description | Dirac Research

I however like the box approach of the DEQX and DSPeaker as to get away from having a PC involved.

[wisnon]

Fair enough Chris. The smallest Devialet (D120 used, may not be that much). The SAMification potential is very nice, if you have the right speakers.

Example for $4K: https://app.audiogon.com/listings/so...-petersburg-fl

This could replace your HUGO, Teac, Vincent and W4s...though I see you have 2 systems. Not sure of the Usher or Vapor are Sammed yet.

The Dspeaker can act as an analog preamp and Dac too (PCM only) and use Toslink/USB/ coax and AES. It comes with wall wart, so a good LPSU would be advisable to get (12v DC IIRC). It certainly is easy to use and really manages the bass. There is a great review here that explains much;

https://www.avforums.com/review/dspe...ore-review.355

and

[Review] DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core - digital sound processor

[JDLaudio]

Nice, Jerry. I have never seen that offering before. 24/96 is a lot though, so that alone would not put me off.
DSPeaker uses a form of artificial intelligence in their DRC software and a powerful processor. They are a subsidiary of VLSI Inc, so hardware is in their DNA too. Their new 24/192 will be interesting and as with the AM 2.0, they have dumbed down the process, so that the learning curve is very smooth and shallow.

Miska (Mr HQ Player), says he does DRC in DSD. I started a threat at CA to see if he will elaborate more, as that too is interesting.

I like PSPeaker is using artificial intelligence. I think that is the only kind, when it comes to audio....lol.

[Mike]

Chris - Norman's suggestion is what I've been telling you for a long time. If you can squeeze out a D200, then you can expand to a 400 down the road. If you have the Devialet, you think you just hit a home run $$ and sound wise.

[Audiophile bill]

Hi Norman and Bonzo,

If I went for a digital only box that goes in front of the DAC, I would like one that utilizes microphone room equalization. Is there such a beast out there?

Best,
Ken

yes Ken - you need a mic and USB interface or FireWire interface to measure your room for use with Acourate, Dirac etc

[Audiophile bill]

Fwiw - I can assure you that it is straightforward to use even Acourate. I am by no means a techie but had no problem using all the standard features in Acourate following online instructions. I would struggle to build a time aligned, linearised, 3 way crossover with room correction though.

[Mike]

I have a feeling DSP will be the next frontier in high end audio. Traditionalists like me will go kicking and screaming...but it's coming, whether we like it or not. Major emphasis on big ugly room treatments are likely to go the way of the dodo bird.

I'm not sure how the Devialet SAM technology compares to the products like Dirac, DSPeaker, etc. but I'm totally smitten with SAM on my Focal Scala V2's. To put it bluntly, it removed the last little "bitch" I had with them in my room.

[wisnon]

I like PSPeaker is using artificial intelligence. I think that is the only kind, when it comes to audio....lol.

Hahahaha..

Good one.

[Geardaddy]

Let's face it, once you get beyond proper speaker placement, most rooms are still a problem. Most rooms require some TLC to get just right....not too hot, not too cold....wait, no, that's something else. Not too dead/not too lively.

As DSP continues to advance in terms of technology both outside the speaker and inside the speaker, are we reaching a point where behemoth treatments will go the way of the Dodo Bird?

Case in point: I had the opportunity to hear the Avantgarde Zero XD's. The left speaker was jammed into a corner and the right speaker was out into the middle of the room. I thought for sure this would not sound good. Boy, was I wrong. It sounded incredible. I listened for over two hours to be sure - both digital and analog. The depth of soundstage, the precise bass, the clarity was incredible.

With regards to DSP, there isn't really a good way of incorporating DSP with vinyl - unless of course, you digitize your vinyl (GASP!). But digitizing your vinyl is precisely how the Devialet handles the analog signal, and you know what? It sounds DAMN GOOD and offers incredible customization not found in many (any?) analog phonostage.

I kind of think DSP will be the next wave to hit hifi over the next 5 or 10 years.

What do you think?

I briefly fiddled with room correction when I had Emerald Physics speakers. The room correction that Clayton Shaw was using at the time produced a modest improvement. There is a lot to be said for correction in the digital domain if you have a crappy room. At some point, it may prove to be a viable alternative to physical treatments. However, its hard to circumvent the physics of sound and vibration. In my limited experience, there is no substitute for a properly engineered room sans aftermarket room correction gizmos.

If you truly want to circumvent the room, headphones are the answer. Once the engineering of phones evolve further, it may make the old stereo paradigm look silly.

[Mike]

I briefly fiddled with room correction when I had Emerald Physics speakers. The room correction that Clayton Shaw was using at the time produced a modest improvement. There is a lot to be said for correction in the digital domain if you have a crappy room. At some point, it may prove to be a viable alternative to physical treatments. However, its hard to circumvent the physics of sound and vibration. In my limited experience, there is no substitute for a properly engineered room sans aftermarket room correction gizmos.

If you truly want to circumvent the room, headphones are the answer. Once the engineering of phones evolve further, it may make the old stereo paradigm look silly.

Clayton hasn't been associated with Emerald Physics for almost 3 years now. I would suspect he was also using something pretty low budget. DSP has made some nice strides in the past 3 years and some of the top tier products like DEQX are really impressive.

Gob-smacked by DEQX | Stereophile.com

[Geardaddy]

Clayton hasn't been associated with Emerald Physics for almost 3 years now. I would suspect he was also using something pretty low budget. DSP has made some nice strides in the past 3 years and some of the top tier products like DEQX are really impressive.

Gob-smacked by DEQX | Stereophile.com

I know it was not the DEQX. It was part of his Spatial software. A friend of mine used his most recent software offering (Dirac), and it was not copacetic.

Again, you will be "Gob-smacked" if you are the average reviewer with a crappy room....which if u look at photographs, seems to be the norm. Also, Atkinson thinks digital rips of vinyl are as good as the real thing. Who knows with him.

[DavidPiska]

In my opinion, digital processing doing phase shift and it is worse than bad acoustic. Sound looses details and spatiality. Best sound is from single A class tube amplifier and good horn speakers without crossovers if you are passion.