Moving gear to front of the room? Pro's? Con's?

[Mike]

I am considering moving my gear to the front of my room. The 11 meter XLR run becomes quite an investment as I look into moving to Siltech cabling. My thought is to have Timbernation build me some low profile racks (27.5 inches tall max). The racks would sit BEHIND the speakers by 4-6 inches. The 27.5 inches would match the height of the stacked XS150's. The 27.5 inches is even with the top woofer of the Strads and yet remains below the midrange and tweeter. I could fit two 39 inch wide (27.5 inch tall) racks (with three shelves at 7.25 inches), giving me a total of 12 "slots" for gear. My Turntable and POSSIBLY R2R could go on top. I think I may just keep the R2R off to the side if it will affect diffusion in a negative way (but I will try it to see).

My question is will this affect sound diffusion in a negative way or should I be ok so long as the rack remains low profile?

Thoughts?

[Steve]

If the speakers are forward, the effects should be negligible, IMO, otherwise imaging and focus can be compromised.

I've experimented a little with such placement given space limitations and high racks. My speakers are forward (contrary to older pics on my system thread which show forward faces from rack line only, which was still OK for Dali performance).

However, Dali's are not towed in per their recommended placement. This attribute probably contributes to their versatility of placement. Other loudspeakers could be more critical. YMMV.

[CPP]

I am considering moving my gear to the front of my room. The 11 meter XLR run becomes quite an investment as I look into moving to Siltech cabling. My thought is to have Timbernation build me some low profile racks (27.5 inches tall max). The racks would sit BEHIND the speakers by 4-6 inches. The 27.5 inches would match the height of the stacked XS150's. The 27.5 inches is even with the top woofer of the Strads and yet remains below the midrange and tweeter. I could fit two 39 inch wide (27.5 inch tall) racks (with three shelves at 7.25 inches), giving me a total of 12 "slots" for gear. My Turntable and POSSIBLY R2R could go on top. I think I may just keep the R2R off to the side if it will affect diffusion in a negative way (but I will try it to see).

My question is will this affect sound diffusion in a negative way or should I be ok so long as the rack remains low profile?

Thoughts?

I agree with Steve "the effects should be negligible",. Mike is this the main room upstairs ?

PS: Chris at Timbernation does great work Mike.

[Mike]

I agree with Steve "the effects should be negligible",. Mike is this the main room upstairs ?

PS: Chris at Timbernation does great work Mike.

Yes, the upstairs room. Thanks! I have all my racks from Chris! No audio BS voodoo - just straight up solid racks. Custom made!


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[CPP]

Yes, the upstairs room. Thanks! I have all my racks from Chris! No audio BS voodoo - just straight up solid racks. Custom made!


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Mike did you ever get that room acoustically like you wanted ? I remember you were changing speakers , repositioning speakers a while back. Also just wondering about the new proposed distance from the back and side walls. I had a room like that and a little movement impacts a lot due to the room design but those Stradivari's might enjoy a little more forward air. But should be fun.

[Mike]

Mike did you ever get that room acoustically like you wanted ? I remember you were changing speakers , repositioning speakers a while back. Also just wondering about the new proposed distance from the back and side walls. I had a room like that and a little movement impacts a lot due to the room design but those Stradivari's might enjoy a little more forward air. But should be fun.

Chris - I did get things sorted out. I really want to try some panels from Resolution Acoustics (who will be at Axpona with two VERY unique rooms - one treated, one not - same systems in both - COOL!). Right now I would say my room is a pinch too damp. I could remove a few absorbing panels and that should do the trick.

I went back to STRADS because they sound amazing and they just work in my room. They have soul! And I love the sound of wood!

I'm tempted to try some Scala V2's or Stella's since I love my Scala's so much downstairs - but I best not mess with it I figure.

Since the STRADS are wide (and therefore the drivers further away from the side wall), the edge of the speaker can be a pinch closer to the side walls. I have them out a little more than 4 feet. I followed the Sumiko setup procedure to determine this. I have ZERO bass issues or high frequency issues. I have a glorious midrange. Man, I better not mess with trying some other speaker. And the XS150's just bring everything to life! Thunderous!


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[the professor]

My guess is that the "negative" effects of moving the equipment between the speakers will be offset by not needing such a long run of interconnects. Thus the total effect will be a good one.

[still-one]

I prefer to have as little gear as possible between the speakers. I do have my amps sitting between my X2's but even on their stands they stand less than a foot off the floor.

[Zero]

You shouldn't have too many issues re: Diffusion. If anything, I think the pros and cons will balance everything out.

The upside is that you will be dealing with shorter cable lengths. This should pay dividends. On the downside, by putting the rack directly behind the speakers, you're basically throwing it into your loudspeakers 'firing range'. There's going to be a lot of energy hitting that rack - which will more than likely generate a lot of resonance. Whether or not this will be audible however - I can't say.

[BlueFox]

As long as the rack is open on the sides, rear, and front, with adequate space between the top of gear and the bottom of the next shelf, and placed behind the edge of the baffle then there should be minimal issue. If anything it will help mitigate reflections off the wall behind the speakers.

[Mike]

If the speakers are forward, the effects should be negligible, IMO, otherwise imaging and focus can be compromised.

I've experimented a little with such placement given space limitations and high racks. My speakers are forward (contrary to older pics on my system thread which show forward faces from rack line only, which was still OK for Dali performance).

However, Dali's are not towed in per their recommended placement. This attribute probably contributes to their versatility of placement. Other loudspeakers could be more critical. YMMV.

Thanks Steve. I've always admired your setup. Visual stunner!

[Mike]

As long as the rack is open on the sides, rear, and front, with adequate space between the top of gear and the bottom of the next shelf, and placed behind the edge of the baffle then there should be minimal issue. If anything it will help mitigate reflections off the wall behind the speakers.

Thanks Bud. I would have enough room for the gear, but likely not enough to add stillpoints or nordost sort fut cones under the taller pieces. Hopefully will be ok. Thoughts?

[Mike]

You shouldn't have too many issues re: Diffusion. If anything, I think the pros and cons will balance everything out.

The upside is that you will be dealing with shorter cable lengths. This should pay dividends. On the downside, by putting the rack directly behind the speakers, you're basically throwing it into your loudspeakers 'firing range'. There's going to be a lot of energy hitting that rack - which will more than likely generate a lot of resonance. Whether or not this will be audible however - I can't say.

Hmm...excellent point. Maybe I should only do two taller shelves instead of three shorter ones. Less space for gear though, but more room to raise gear up with stillpoints or similar products. Hmm...what to do...what to do...

[Don C]

On the downside, by putting the rack directly behind the speakers, you're basically throwing it into your loudspeakers 'firing range'. There's going to be a lot of energy hitting that rack - which will more than likely generate a lot of resonance. Whether or not this will be audible however - I can't say.

I was thinking this, too.

Hmm...excellent point. Maybe I should only do two taller shelves instead of three shorter ones. Less space for gear though, but more room to raise gear up with stillpoints or similar products. Hmm...what to do...what to do...

That might be a good compromise.

[Steve]

You shouldn't have too many issues re: Diffusion. If anything, I think the pros and cons will balance everything out.

The upside is that you will be dealing with shorter cable lengths. This should pay dividends. On the downside, by putting the rack directly behind the speakers, you're basically throwing it into your loudspeakers 'firing range'. There's going to be a lot of energy hitting that rack - which will more than likely generate a lot of resonance. Whether or not this will be audible however - I can't say.

Sure, rack performance counts. This is where the design and material elements of the Quadraspire racks excel! I have a turntable on a HRS platform sitting on a tall Quadraspire rack close to a loudspeaker on timber floors. Zero problems with resonance, vibration and feedback. The racks are spiked and decoupled on isolators.

I think of the rack's performance working in harmony like an orchestral stage or pit. The Quadraspire racks are open with vented and fluted shelves. They sway with the energy of the music.

[KeithR]

I think it makes a difference and doing this for high end cabling seems excessive as room effects trump cables in my experience. i switched positions in my old room and it was clear as day. fwiw, Rives (when they were around) would only allow an amp in between the speakers for their room setups.

you might try both positions with the cables you have, first, before ordering a very expensive XLR. that would isolate the room component at minimum?

[Mike]

Sure, rack performance counts. This is where the design and material elements of the Quadraspire racks excel! I have a turntable on a HRS platform sitting on a tall Quadraspire rack close to a loudspeaker on timber floors. Zero problems with resonance, vibration and feedback. The racks are spiked and decoupled on isolators.

I think of the rack's performance working in harmony like an orchestral stage or pit. The Quadraspire racks are open with vented and fluted shelves. They sway with the energy of the music.

Steve - Quadraspire is the other rack I'm looking at. I have a couple of their amp stands really like them.

[Mike]

I think it makes a difference and doing this for high end cabling seems excessive as room effects trump cables in my experience. i switched positions in my old room and it was clear as day. fwiw, Rives (when they were around) would only allow an amp in between the speakers for their room setups.

you might try both positions with the cables you have, first, before ordering a very expensive XLR. that would isolate the room component at minimum?

You have a point. I think if I keep it low enough, it should be ok. But yes, experimentation is the only way to know for sure.

[atmasphere]

The place to have your front end of your system is where there are bass nadirs in the room where your gear will see the least amount of vibration. There is no guarantee that will be in the middle of the speakers!

Since the balanced line system exists to eliminate cable artifact, I used it to allow me to place the front end in the most effective spot in the room, which proved to be just a few feet from my listening chair. It should not cost a lot of money to run long interconnect cables if your gear supports the balanced line standard. If not- then you will have to get more expensive cables.... I use Mogami Neglex, about 30 feet of it. I've yet to hear any cable sound better, or for that matter, different. They all sound the same, but my setup supports the balanced line standard so that is predictable.

I have LP storage between my speakers. They behave as fairly effective diffusers. It seems as the system improved in every way by placing them there. I have the front end placed on a custom built Sound Anchors stand, which has custom platforms for the turntable and preamp. I can play any volume I want and the system is impervious- it stays relaxed and does not sound loud at all even when the sound level pressure meter says it is. That makes long listening sessions a lot easier

[Zero]

Mike,

You've clearly poured a boat load of time and money into your system - so why purposefully compromise the effort just so you can accommodate more stuffs? Go for the quality solution.

[Mike]

The place to have your front end of your system is where there are bass nadirs in the room where your gear will see the least amount of vibration. There is no guarantee that will be in the middle of the speakers!

Since the balanced line system exists to eliminate cable artifact, I used it to allow me to place the front end in the most effective spot in the room, which proved to be just a few feet from my listening chair. It should not cost a lot of money to run long interconnect cables if your gear supports the balanced line standard. If not- then you will have to get more expensive cables.... I use Mogami Neglex, about 30 feet of it. I've yet to hear any cable sound better, or for that matter, different. They all sound the same, but my setup supports the balanced line standard so that is predictable.

I have LP storage between my speakers. They behave as fairly effective diffusers. It seems as the system improved in every way by placing them there. I have the front end placed on a custom built Sound Anchors stand, which has custom platforms for the turntable and preamp. I can play any volume I want and the system is impervious- it stays relaxed and does not sound loud at all even when the sound level pressure meter says it is. That makes long listening sessions a lot easier

Thanks. Good points.


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[Mike]

Mike,

You've clearly poured a boat load of time and money into your system - so why purposefully compromise the effort just so you can accommodate more stuffs? Go for the quality solution.

Well, it's actually not for more stuff - it's to stick to a new cabling budget. An 11 meter run of Siltech Royal Signature would take most of my budget! Now, I COULD do Classic Series 550 or maybe 770 and do the long run.

The other side is kind of silly, but, I kind of miss looking at all my gear. The KRONOS TT, the R2R and now the T+A PDP 3000HV. All eye candy. Silly, I know....but...


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[BlueFox]

The other side is kind of silly, but, I kind of miss looking at all my gear. The KRONOS TT, the R2R and now the T+A PDP 3000HV. All eye candy. Silly, I know....but...

I agree with that. While the sound is the obvious factor, aesthetics has its place. Just as some people say they enjoy the ritual of dealing with vinyl as part of their listening session, I enjoy the appearance of the gear as I listen. However, since the gear is in front of me, the lights on the gear drive me crazy at night when the interior lights are dim. I moved the Lumin into the main system Friday afternoon, and that night the blue ring around the power supply button was driving me nuts, so I ended up moving the power supply to a marble end table in the corner behind the left speaker. Out of sight and out of mind.

[dlb2]

Mike, I'm guessing that most of your gear have remotes associated with them except, of course, for the Kronos. Are you willing to have to get up and walk all that way to flip a record over when listening to analog? Just imagine the amount of steps involved when listening to 45rpm records.

[Mike]

Mike, I'm guessing that most of your gear have remotes associated with them except, of course, for the Kronos. Are you willing to have to get up and walk all that way to flip a record over when listening to analog? Just imagine the amount of steps involved when listening to 45rpm records.

I know. The horror of all that exercise must clearly be taken into consideration. However, could we then consider spinning vinyl a sport? Surely it's better for one than golf - the only sport where one is in worse shape after they play than before (beer, hotdogs, etc).


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[bzr]

There is something that is partially touched on previously in this thread & that is the room. IMO, "if" the room is sorted & treated properly sound-wise where the optimal positioning has been found with speakers, having the components in between the speakers is negligible if you have these 2 things. The room to have your racks against the front wall with the speakers forward of them & the racks kept to the minimum height. This has been my finding in the past in purpose built rooms that I have owned.

[Mike]

There is something that is partially touched on previously in this thread & that is the room. IMO, "if" the room is sorted & treated properly sound-wise where the optimal positioning has been found with speakers, having the components in between the speakers is negligible if you have these 2 things. The room to have your racks against the front wall with the speakers forward of them & the racks kept to the minimum height. This has been my finding in the past in purpose built rooms that I have owned.

Thanks Kev. That's exactly what I've found in the past as well, but you know, memory can be a fickle thing.

[rbbert]

If you rack is off the front wall and a little off-center from the sides you should be able to get it close to a room mode dip (nadir). You may also want it a little farther off the floor than you might think, for the same reason.

My rack front is over 2 ft behind the front speaker baffles (which are just over 5 ft into the room). When I moved from a side wall location which I thought was good (based on avoiding first reflections and being in a bass dip) to the present (off) front wall location, the sound actually improved noticeably. Although I use balanced cables either way, I think it's possible that the cables being shorter might be part of that improvement.

[Mike]

If you rack is off the front wall and a little off-center from the sides you should be able to get it close to a room mode dip (nadir). You may also want it a little farther off the floor than you might think, for the same reason.

My rack front is over 2 ft behind the front speaker baffles (which are just over 5 ft into the room). When I moved from a side wall location which I thought was good (based on avoiding first reflections and being in a bass dip) to the present (off) front wall location, the sound actually improved noticeably. Although I use balanced cables either way, I think it's possible that the cables being shorter might be part of that improvement.

Very interesting Rob. The idea of off the wall and raising the rack a little up from the floor is a good idea too. Thanks.

[zagfan]

Mike, There is a an excellent article in the Jan-March 2015 issue of HiFi Critic about the exact issue you are looking at. You can go on line at HIFIcritic.com and buy the issue if interested. The article is titled Relocation, Relocation, Relocation. In a nutshell the reviewer found, as was recommended by Jim Smith in his Get Better Sound book, that by FAR the best place for your equipment rack is at the mid point of the side wall. Just one persons opinion I guess.

[Mike]

Mike, There is a an excellent article in the Jan-March 2015 issue of HiFi Critic about the exact issue you are looking at. You can go on line at HIFIcritic.com and buy the issue if interested. The article is titled Relocation, Relocation, Relocation. In a nutshell the reviewer found, as was recommended by Jim Smith in his Get Better Sound book, that by FAR the best place for your equipment rack is at the mid point of the side wall. Just one persons opinion I guess.

Thank you! I will definitely check it out.


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[bzr]

Mike, There is a an excellent article in the Jan-March 2015 issue of HiFi Critic about the exact issue you are looking at. You can go on line at HIFIcritic.com and buy the issue if interested. The article is titled Relocation, Relocation, Relocation. In a nutshell the reviewer found, as was recommended by Jim Smith in his Get Better Sound book, that by FAR the best place for your equipment rack is at the mid point of the side wall. Just one persons opinion I guess.

I don't think anyone is arguing the point that a rack not in the centre of the speakers is best, as all is room dependent,but, as Rob above & myself as well have found,it wasn't as good as we thought it was going to be. I honestly wondered why I bothered to put my gear at the halfway point on the side of one of my rooms & actually moved it all back to between the speakers about 4 months later. Once having done so the result was evident but nothing I noticed a day later by much.

[Mike]

I don't think anyone is arguing the point that a rack not in the centre of the speakers is best, as all is room dependent,but, as Rob above & myself as well have found,it wasn't as good as we thought it was going to be. I honestly wondered why I bothered to put my gear at the halfway point on the side of one of my rooms & actually moved it all back to between the speakers about 4 months later. Once having done so the result was evident but nothing I noticed a day later by much.

I know this is so silly, but I really do like looking at the turntable spinning.

[bzr]

I know this is so silly, but I really do like looking at the turntable spinning.

This is so silly, seriously? Next you'll be telling us to post with caution in respect of peoples feelings.....

[CPP]

by FAR the best place for your equipment rack is at the mid point of the side wall. Just one persons opinion I guess.

You know I have Jim's book and tried the rack location (page 76 Tip 70) just like he noted. The only thing it did was to cause me to spend more money on LONGER cables. The sound well, it sounded the same to me. Sent the longer cables back and used that money to buy more music. After all it about the music anyway.

[rbbert]

Jim's book also says turn off the WiFi in your house. How much difference do you think that makes to the sound? Also that having a 30' cable run to one speaker with a 6' run to the other sounds fine. How many of us do that?

[CPP]

Jim's book also says turn off the WiFi in your house. How much difference do you think that makes to the sound? Also that having a 30' cable run to one speaker with a 6' run to the other sounds fine. How many of us do that?

Also if you wear glasses to take your glasses off as it causes reflection points

[Mike]

Jim's book also says turn off the WiFi in your house. How much difference do you think that makes to the sound? Also that having a 30' cable run to one speaker with a 6' run to the other sounds fine. How many of us do that?

Turn wifi off? I would have no access to digital then! Why would you want 30 feet on one speaker and 6 on the other? Listening to mono LP's in two rooms?

[CPP]

Turn wifi off? I would have no access to digital then! Why would you want 30 feet on one speaker and 6 on the other? Listening to mono LP's in two rooms?

I can see it now, honey I'm going to turn the wifi off so I can listen to MY music, response "try It" I'm listening to MY music

[rbbert]

So how does one decide what parts of Jim Smith's advice to take? Only one way, of course; try it yourself. So I think that ends up being the "answer" to Mike's OP in this thread.

[CPP]

So how does one decide what parts of Jim Smith's advice to take? Only one way, of course; try it yourself. So I think that ends up being the "answer" to Mike's OP in this thread.

Hi Rob as you noted "Only one way, of course; try it yourself". I really don't think out of all the forum members and "paid reviewers" our rooms are the same nor do we all have identical equipment or music taste or budgets to make them so.

We moved to beach a few years ago to downsize after we both retired and I have this small cube of an office that is impossible to get right. Coming from a dedicated listening room that resembles Mikes' main room to a 11x11x11 cube with a 5 foot opening in one end of an office has been extremely difficult. We still have a "family room area for HT and other music but when I want to get out of the way, it usually means I put on a pair of headphones in my office .

[Rubytuesday]

Being an old thread, and struggling with this decision myself, I am curious of those that have chimed in have made additional tests or come to any further conclusions. I have a dedicated room (12x20x9), and have tried both side wall and in front between (and behind) the speakers. Either it truly doesn’t make a difference in my room or I don’t have the ear for it, but for the life of me, I cant seem to really perceive a difference. Probably need to work on speaker/seating location. Anywho, would love to hear from others.

[Jack]

I've tried it both ways in my dedicated room and I couldn't tell the difference either so in the middle it stayed though the rack is several feet behind the rear of the speakers.

[Randy Myers]

I also have racks in between the speakers. Reading Jim Smith's book it really sounded like the speakers should be out in front a bit. I feel I have gotten more air and a much better sound stage having the speakers move out in front of the racks!

[Rubytuesday]

The front of my speakers are about 6 feet from the front wall, so my rack is about 2-3 feet behind the speakers. Probably why the racks behind them don’t interfere too much? Since my rack is modular, I think I am going to try for shorter and wider in front and have the ability to look at them while playing (mike’s notion of enjoyment from watching a record spin).

[Kuoppis]

I would just test it. Sit in the sweet spot and listen, then you can observe where the image manifests itself. If the sound comes from where your gear is placed, you might want to adjust. In my system it forms above the gear (my rack is not very tall).


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[Al M.]

Mike, There is a an excellent article in the Jan-March 2015 issue of HiFi Critic about the exact issue you are looking at. You can go on line at HIFIcritic.com and buy the issue if interested. The article is titled Relocation, Relocation, Relocation. In a nutshell the reviewer found, as was recommended by Jim Smith in his Get Better Sound book, that by FAR the best place for your equipment rack is at the mid point of the side wall. Just one persons opinion I guess.

Yes, I haven't pursued that strategy. I have a low rack between and slightly behind the speakers, and me and all my visitors love the deep and layered soundstage with great location within it. The speakers completely disappear in the soundstage. Especially listening in the dark the illusion of being transported to another venue can be strong.

Properly taking care of the room acoustics is more important. It has taken me years to get where I am on that.

[Mordante]

Yes, I haven't pursued that strategy. I have a low rack between and slightly behind the speakers, and me and all my visitors love the deep and layered soundstage with great location within it. The speakers completely disappear in the soundstage. Especially listening in the dark the illusion of being transported to another venue can be strong.

Properly taking care of the room acoustics is more important. It has taken me years to get where I am on that.

If my g/f allows it I'd like to build some diffusers for mid/high and place them at the first reflection points at the long wall.

https://dngmns.home.xs4all.nl/fwd.html