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April 4, 2015, 09:15 PM #1
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Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
I have enjoyed Martin-Logan speakers since 1989. I had Monolith Is (obviously I am not too sensitive to panel/cone discontinuity! then Monolith IIIs, then Prodigys (which I still own and love). A long time Martin-Logan dealer told me today that he is dropping the manufacturer because he feels the quality of the products has gone down across the board, including with respect to the CLX. He showed me a pair of CLXs manufactured in 2014 which, he said, manifest shoddy workmanship. I rocked the speakers back and forth and they did seem a little chintzy.
I have notes about advice jim Powers gave me going back to 1998. It certainly is not a good sign that Jim is no longer at ML.
I have assumed that whatever the new owner's business model with respect to inexpensive products sold in mass-market electronics stores, the company would nonetheless treat their high-end audio products produced in Canada (e.g., CLX Art) as a separate business with a traditional ML level of build quality, quality control and support. I would think it obvious that this has to be their thinking with regard to the Neolith.
Is my assumption incorrect?
Is there any factual evidence to support the proposition that manufacturing quality in even the CLX has declined?
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April 5, 2015, 12:27 AM #2
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Not from where I'm sitting. On my 3rd pair of ML speakers and no problems.
Anthony
Analog: VPI Clearaudio Innovation Wood/Kuzma 4Point/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->
Digital: Antipodes CX (Oladra Upgrade)> Cary DMS-600 DAC/Streamer---->
...........Cary 306 SACD Professional Disc Player---->
===> Cary SLP-05 (Ultimate Upgrade edition)----> Clayton M-300----> MARTIN LOGAN SPIRES/REL 212SX x2
[Synergistic Research/Nordost/Wireworld/Furutech/SRA/Adona/Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]
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April 5, 2015, 12:39 AM #3
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Never had any issues with my Summit X or my other 2 previous owned ML speakers.
George
-----------------------
Aurender ACS10 Music Server > Holo Audio May KTE R2R Ladder DAC > Pass Labs XP-30 Preamp > Pass Labs XA160.5 Class A Mono Blocks > Martin Logan Renaissance ELS 15A Speakers
Powered By 2X BPT 3.5 Signature Plus Ultra Isolators | Shunyata Research Hydra Triton + Typhon | Shunyata Hydra 2 Power Conditioner
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April 5, 2015, 02:06 AM #4
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
The question was not about the historical build quality or reliablity of ML speakers. The question was about the build quality and quality control of very recent production.
Were any of the speakers to which you refer manufactured in the last year or two?
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April 5, 2015, 10:00 AM #5
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
I have not looked at their new stuff closely but I heard their new subs the sound was not as good as the decent i IMO .
BEST BUY and other chains are caring ML not the greatest news for quality.
I have no problem with my old CLXs the new ones no ideaLyra Atlas, tri-planner, clear audio statement, Burmester 100, Ayre KXR20, Ayre MXR20, Ayre DX5, Adept Response line conditioner, Ayre signature interconnects, Cardas clear power cables,cardas clear speaker cables and Martin Logan CLX with Decenti subs with Cardas hex link.
Not in use Infinity QLS and Ohm F
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April 5, 2015, 10:22 AM #6
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Dear Garth,
Thank you for your reply.
PS: You have what I am sure is a wonderful system, and one of which I would like the sound as well. Are you considering switching to the Neoliths?
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April 5, 2015, 10:47 AM #7
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
If I ever get to hear them I might I bought the CLXs for the sound that love has not changed. New and different are easy a long term better sound is harder unless money is really no road block.
Lot of great sounding stuff out their what works together well and in my room is harder.Lyra Atlas, tri-planner, clear audio statement, Burmester 100, Ayre KXR20, Ayre MXR20, Ayre DX5, Adept Response line conditioner, Ayre signature interconnects, Cardas clear power cables,cardas clear speaker cables and Martin Logan CLX with Decenti subs with Cardas hex link.
Not in use Infinity QLS and Ohm F
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April 5, 2015, 11:15 AM #8
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
George
-----------------------
Aurender ACS10 Music Server > Holo Audio May KTE R2R Ladder DAC > Pass Labs XP-30 Preamp > Pass Labs XA160.5 Class A Mono Blocks > Martin Logan Renaissance ELS 15A Speakers
Powered By 2X BPT 3.5 Signature Plus Ultra Isolators | Shunyata Research Hydra Triton + Typhon | Shunyata Hydra 2 Power Conditioner
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April 5, 2015, 08:20 PM #9
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Anthony
Analog: VPI Clearaudio Innovation Wood/Kuzma 4Point/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->
Digital: Antipodes CX (Oladra Upgrade)> Cary DMS-600 DAC/Streamer---->
...........Cary 306 SACD Professional Disc Player---->
===> Cary SLP-05 (Ultimate Upgrade edition)----> Clayton M-300----> MARTIN LOGAN SPIRES/REL 212SX x2
[Synergistic Research/Nordost/Wireworld/Furutech/SRA/Adona/Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]
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April 5, 2015, 08:23 PM #10
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Anthony
Analog: VPI Clearaudio Innovation Wood/Kuzma 4Point/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->
Digital: Antipodes CX (Oladra Upgrade)> Cary DMS-600 DAC/Streamer---->
...........Cary 306 SACD Professional Disc Player---->
===> Cary SLP-05 (Ultimate Upgrade edition)----> Clayton M-300----> MARTIN LOGAN SPIRES/REL 212SX x2
[Synergistic Research/Nordost/Wireworld/Furutech/SRA/Adona/Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]
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April 5, 2015, 08:29 PM #11
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Lyra Atlas, tri-planner, clear audio statement, Burmester 100, Ayre KXR20, Ayre MXR20, Ayre DX5, Adept Response line conditioner, Ayre signature interconnects, Cardas clear power cables,cardas clear speaker cables and Martin Logan CLX with Decenti subs with Cardas hex link.
Not in use Infinity QLS and Ohm F
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April 6, 2015, 01:10 AM #12
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Dear asindc,
Thank you for the report.
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April 6, 2015, 08:49 PM #13
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Go to the martinloganowners.com forum and you're find thousands of happy Martin Logan owners like me!
George
-----------------------
Aurender ACS10 Music Server > Holo Audio May KTE R2R Ladder DAC > Pass Labs XP-30 Preamp > Pass Labs XA160.5 Class A Mono Blocks > Martin Logan Renaissance ELS 15A Speakers
Powered By 2X BPT 3.5 Signature Plus Ultra Isolators | Shunyata Research Hydra Triton + Typhon | Shunyata Hydra 2 Power Conditioner
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April 6, 2015, 11:00 PM #14
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Dear George,
I, too, am an extremely happy Martin-Logan owner (of three pairs of speakers since 1990), but that was not the question. : )
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April 7, 2015, 09:04 PM #15
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
I have a pair of legacy ML Summits, and also recently purchased a BalancedForce 210 sub. The latter has a custom finished top, with superb fit and finish overall. Performance wise, I'm very happy with it, and plan on buying another 210 sub to better fill in a room null at my listening position. From my perspective, ML Quality Control has not suffered (though I suspect there might have been a lag when they transitioned to Canadian manufacturing). I agree that Jim Powers (? early) retirement was a letdown, but from what I've read over at the ML Owners website, the new tech support staff have been responsive and helpful.
Squeezebox Touch/Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB + Oppo 205 > Conrad Johnson CT5 preamp and Premier 350 amp > Martin Logan Expression 13A's and two ML BF210 subs. Audience Au24e I/C's & speaker cable. Member of the Suncoast Audiophile Society.
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April 7, 2015, 09:23 PM #16
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
That is encouraging. Thank you for your reply!
I received an email from ML yesterday. ML will be demonstrating the Neoliths at T.H.E. Show in Newport in May. I definitely will be attending!
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April 13, 2015, 02:33 PM #17
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Hmm, I'm not aware of any trouble with ML's high-end products. I was also not aware that BestBuy has been carrying them for 10 years. I thought it had been much shorter. Best Buy carrying any fine product gives me pause for some reason, but I don't think there is much to worry about from the manufactures of said products. Also Best Buy doesn't carry ML's full line of high-end either.
(Did you know that BB also carries the B&W Nautilus speakers, the big ones)?
I don't know the whole story behind why the OP's dealer is dropping ML. It might be a dealer relation issue and it might not. I know one high-end dealer that dropped VPI because of business model conflict, but VPI makes fine products and gives decent support.
ML also has the Paradigm line which is not in Best Buy and won't be any time soon. If I'm not mistaken I think ML/Paradigm is very picky about authorization of who carries their Paradigm line.
This is on top of the fact that ML/Paradigm has good support (better than B&W) and I have read and watched tours of ML/Paradigm and they are very proud of what they make they do pay attention to quality. Of course, what I read and saw is about 2 years old, so.....
Still, I'd like to think that they are still a proud company with traditions intact, keeping it real, keeping the jobs and manufactured in Canada.
I'm no expert, this is just my take on it.
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April 13, 2015, 02:37 PM #18
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April 13, 2015, 04:29 PM #19
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April 14, 2015, 05:53 AM #20
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Dear MusicDirector,
ML told me that they were not yet sure with which other exhibitors they were going to ally.
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April 14, 2015, 07:46 AM #21
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Mark
Kharma DB9 Signature
Pass Labs XP32......incoming
Pass Labs X350.8
Esoteric N-05XD
VPI Avenger with Magnetic Drive
Manley Chinook Phono Pre
Ortofon Cadenza Black cartridge
Kharma Elegance speaker cables
Kharma Elegance interconnects
REL Subs
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April 14, 2015, 09:14 AM #22
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Dear Mark,
I have owned ML speakers since 1989. I have always hoped that ML would make a bigger version of the Monoliths, or a smaller, four column version of the Statements.
Can the Neoliths be three times as good as CLX Arts with two subwoofers? We shall see (ah, hear).
PS: I personally prefer the ML hybrid systems to the full range panels with external subwoofers. I find the full range panels to be too lean-sounding in the 200 to 400 hz range, and so I like the way the hybrid systems cross over to the cones at a higher frequency than the frequency at which the full range systems cross over to the external subwoofers.
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April 14, 2015, 10:49 AM #23
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
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April 14, 2015, 10:53 AM #24
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November 13, 2015, 02:25 AM #25
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
I heard the Neoliths at TAVES the room was not great they had them set up with a curtain behind them . I would like to hear them again set up with out the curtain and with different amps they were using Merdian it did not seem to work the day I was there . The speaker looks better in person than in the pics I have seen. The list price in Canada 100,000 thats a big jump over the CLXs with subs .
Lyra Atlas, tri-planner, clear audio statement, Burmester 100, Ayre KXR20, Ayre MXR20, Ayre DX5, Adept Response line conditioner, Ayre signature interconnects, Cardas clear power cables,cardas clear speaker cables and Martin Logan CLX with Decenti subs with Cardas hex link.
Not in use Infinity QLS and Ohm F
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November 13, 2015, 07:13 AM #26
Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Garth - the Neolith's were met with mixed reviews at RMAF too. I've heard them a few times now....just don't know. The first time was with McIntosh in a tiny room at Axpona and it was decent on one song and then not so much the second. At RMAF, they were running their crazy surround/4 channel demo. Hard to tell. Too gimmicky a production.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1447413141.936062.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1447413467.291385.jpgMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
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November 13, 2015, 09:25 AM #27
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Of all the speakers that I have heard in the last several years the one that sticks in my auditory memory is the ML CLX art. Went back several times to hear them before I made my initial speaker purchase. This is the girl that I wish I would have dated longer before I popped the question.
More recently, I've heard the Neo's at several shows and they didn't do it for me the way the CLX's did.Le Roy
Austin, Tx : Soulution 520 preamp, 501 mono blocks, 541 SACD/560 DAC w/ Network Streaming, Raidho D3.1, Lumin U1, Uptone Audio Modded Mac Mini w/ MMK fanless kit & JS-2 LPS, Regen, Ansuz DTC loom (complete), Oppo 105D, QNAP TS-451+
Chicagoland : Soulution 725 preamp, 711 stereo amp, 541 SACD/560 DAC w/ Network Streaming, Raidho D5.1, Naim UnitiServe 2TB, Aurender W-20 Ansuz DTC later generation wire, Teac X1000 R2R, QNAP TS-451+
Foundation:
Raidho Rack system, Ansuz DTC Mainz8, Ansuz (2) Supreme Mainz D8 Distribution, 20 amp dedicated outlets via subpanel
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November 13, 2015, 11:54 AM #28
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
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November 13, 2015, 12:10 PM #29
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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November 13, 2015, 03:14 PM #30
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Not sure that I can give you the precise answer you are looking for. What it boils down to for me is emotional engagement. I found that to be lacking with the Neo's.
I'll confess to a bias: If a product such as the Neo costs a multiple of the CLX I go in with high expectations. If those high expectations are not met then I walk away disappointed. It doesn't matter if the Neo got 70% of the way there or 85% of the way, (not that I'm thinking in those terms when I'm in the listening position) if the expectations are not met or more importantly exceeded then listening chagrin sets in and its on to the next room at the audio show.
Let me take a stab at your question though. I found the CLX to be a window into the music. Extremely revealing and transparent. On one particular piano sonata I was listening to I could hear the pianist engaging the foot pedal damper. I found the Neo a little more muddled and not as high up on that scale of what I remember the CLX's doing well. In short, the Neo's presentation for me was not emotionally engaging. It did not provide a window into the music or set my foot moving up and down.Le Roy
Austin, Tx : Soulution 520 preamp, 501 mono blocks, 541 SACD/560 DAC w/ Network Streaming, Raidho D3.1, Lumin U1, Uptone Audio Modded Mac Mini w/ MMK fanless kit & JS-2 LPS, Regen, Ansuz DTC loom (complete), Oppo 105D, QNAP TS-451+
Chicagoland : Soulution 725 preamp, 711 stereo amp, 541 SACD/560 DAC w/ Network Streaming, Raidho D5.1, Naim UnitiServe 2TB, Aurender W-20 Ansuz DTC later generation wire, Teac X1000 R2R, QNAP TS-451+
Foundation:
Raidho Rack system, Ansuz DTC Mainz8, Ansuz (2) Supreme Mainz D8 Distribution, 20 amp dedicated outlets via subpanel
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November 13, 2015, 03:46 PM #31
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
How do you KNOW that either pair were performing at or near their potential?
Not trying to argue, just asking the question that I always ask myself...DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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November 13, 2015, 03:52 PM #32
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
Thank you, Odyssey.
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November 13, 2015, 04:21 PM #33
Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
That's an excellent question. I don't know. However I heard the Neo's under several different show conditions. I went in wanting to like them.
But the reader has to take into account my self-confessed listening/evaluation bias. If I go in with very high expectations and they are not met, my focus turns elsewhere.Le Roy
Austin, Tx : Soulution 520 preamp, 501 mono blocks, 541 SACD/560 DAC w/ Network Streaming, Raidho D3.1, Lumin U1, Uptone Audio Modded Mac Mini w/ MMK fanless kit & JS-2 LPS, Regen, Ansuz DTC loom (complete), Oppo 105D, QNAP TS-451+
Chicagoland : Soulution 725 preamp, 711 stereo amp, 541 SACD/560 DAC w/ Network Streaming, Raidho D5.1, Naim UnitiServe 2TB, Aurender W-20 Ansuz DTC later generation wire, Teac X1000 R2R, QNAP TS-451+
Foundation:
Raidho Rack system, Ansuz DTC Mainz8, Ansuz (2) Supreme Mainz D8 Distribution, 20 amp dedicated outlets via subpanel
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November 13, 2015, 06:40 PM #34
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Re: Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products
The highs were not there the bass was muddy I have the clxs with decent i subs I am sure in my own mind the 100,000 dollar speaker should be a lot better than what I heard. I am not saying the CLXs are perfect but they have a magic that draws you in. I have added two more Decent I subs 4 in total thou only 3 are working one arrived DOA and is being fixed under warranty as we speak . I have them stacked a poor mans statement system.
Jim if you are ever working in the Toronto Canada area I would be open to having you do some work for me on my system . We met once at a RMAF a few years back read the book and I like your ideas. I am in no rush but my system seems to be what I am going to keep, getting the most out of what I have seems like a solid plan.Lyra Atlas, tri-planner, clear audio statement, Burmester 100, Ayre KXR20, Ayre MXR20, Ayre DX5, Adept Response line conditioner, Ayre signature interconnects, Cardas clear power cables,cardas clear speaker cables and Martin Logan CLX with Decenti subs with Cardas hex link.
Not in use Infinity QLS and Ohm F
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Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team
I upgraded the power supply on my Gigafoil v4 to a Weiss PSU 102. It’s very nice step up. But with the new model, you’re looking at $2000 before even investing in a SOTA linear power supply.
GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter