Martin-Logan quality control on high-end products

[RonR]

I have enjoyed Martin-Logan speakers since 1989. I had Monolith Is (obviously I am not too sensitive to panel/cone discontinuity! then Monolith IIIs, then Prodigys (which I still own and love). A long time Martin-Logan dealer told me today that he is dropping the manufacturer because he feels the quality of the products has gone down across the board, including with respect to the CLX. He showed me a pair of CLXs manufactured in 2014 which, he said, manifest shoddy workmanship. I rocked the speakers back and forth and they did seem a little chintzy.

I have notes about advice jim Powers gave me going back to 1998. It certainly is not a good sign that Jim is no longer at ML.

I have assumed that whatever the new owner's business model with respect to inexpensive products sold in mass-market electronics stores, the company would nonetheless treat their high-end audio products produced in Canada (e.g., CLX Art) as a separate business with a traditional ML level of build quality, quality control and support. I would think it obvious that this has to be their thinking with regard to the Neolith.

Is my assumption incorrect?

Is there any factual evidence to support the proposition that manufacturing quality in even the CLX has declined?

[asindc]

Not from where I'm sitting. On my 3rd pair of ML speakers and no problems.

[Audioseduction]

Never had any issues with my Summit X or my other 2 previous owned ML speakers.

[RonR]

The question was not about the historical build quality or reliablity of ML speakers. The question was about the build quality and quality control of very recent production.

Were any of the speakers to which you refer manufactured in the last year or two?

[Garth]

I have not looked at their new stuff closely but I heard their new subs the sound was not as good as the decent i IMO .

BEST BUY and other chains are caring ML not the greatest news for quality.

I have no problem with my old CLXs the new ones no idea

[RonR]

Dear Garth,

Thank you for your reply.

PS: You have what I am sure is a wonderful system, and one of which I would like the sound as well. Are you considering switching to the Neoliths?

[Garth]

Dear Garth,

Thank you for your reply.

PS: You have what I am sure is a wonderful system, and one of which I would like the sound as well. Are you considering switching to the Neoliths?

If I ever get to hear them I might I bought the CLXs for the sound that love has not changed. New and different are easy a long term better sound is harder unless money is really no road block.

Lot of great sounding stuff out their what works together well and in my room is harder.

[Audioseduction]

The question was not about the historical build quality or reliablity of ML speakers. The question was about the build quality and quality control of very recent production.

Were any of the speakers to which you refer manufactured in the last year or two?

No. I purchased the Summit X in late 2009.

[asindc]

I have not looked at their new stuff closely but I heard their new subs the sound was not as good as the decent i IMO .

BEST BUY and other chains are caring ML not the greatest news for quality.

I have no problem with my old CLXs the new ones no idea

Best Buy has been carrying MLs for over 10 years.

[asindc]

The question was not about the historical build quality or reliablity of ML speakers. The question was about the build quality and quality control of very recent production.

Were any of the speakers to which you refer manufactured in the last year or two?

Friend of mine has recent-production CLXs and has had no problems, certainly nothing like your dealer described.

[Garth]

Best Buy has been carrying MLs for over 10 years.

That long I had no idea.

[RonR]

Dear asindc,

Thank you for the report.

[Audioseduction]

Go to the martinloganowners.com forum and you're find thousands of happy Martin Logan owners like me!

[RonR]

Dear George,

I, too, am an extremely happy Martin-Logan owner (of three pairs of speakers since 1990), but that was not the question. : )

[sleepysurf]

I have a pair of legacy ML Summits, and also recently purchased a BalancedForce 210 sub. The latter has a custom finished top, with superb fit and finish overall. Performance wise, I'm very happy with it, and plan on buying another 210 sub to better fill in a room null at my listening position. From my perspective, ML Quality Control has not suffered (though I suspect there might have been a lag when they transitioned to Canadian manufacturing). I agree that Jim Powers (? early) retirement was a letdown, but from what I've read over at the ML Owners website, the new tech support staff have been responsive and helpful.

[RonR]

That is encouraging. Thank you for your reply!

I received an email from ML yesterday. ML will be demonstrating the Neoliths at T.H.E. Show in Newport in May. I definitely will be attending!

[MusicDirector]

Hmm, I'm not aware of any trouble with ML's high-end products. I was also not aware that BestBuy has been carrying them for 10 years. I thought it had been much shorter. Best Buy carrying any fine product gives me pause for some reason, but I don't think there is much to worry about from the manufactures of said products. Also Best Buy doesn't carry ML's full line of high-end either.
(Did you know that BB also carries the B&W Nautilus speakers, the big ones)?

I don't know the whole story behind why the OP's dealer is dropping ML. It might be a dealer relation issue and it might not. I know one high-end dealer that dropped VPI because of business model conflict, but VPI makes fine products and gives decent support.
ML also has the Paradigm line which is not in Best Buy and won't be any time soon. If I'm not mistaken I think ML/Paradigm is very picky about authorization of who carries their Paradigm line.
This is on top of the fact that ML/Paradigm has good support (better than B&W) and I have read and watched tours of ML/Paradigm and they are very proud of what they make they do pay attention to quality. Of course, what I read and saw is about 2 years old, so.....
Still, I'd like to think that they are still a proud company with traditions intact, keeping it real, keeping the jobs and manufactured in Canada.
I'm no expert, this is just my take on it.

[MusicDirector]

That is encouraging. Thank you for your reply!

I received an email from ML yesterday. ML will be demonstrating the Neoliths at T.H.E. Show in Newport in May. I definitely will be attending!

I didn't know ML was going to be there. They aren't listed, but of course the list may mean a whole bunch of nothing.

[RonR]

Thank you!

I didn't know ML was going to be there. They aren't listed, but of course the list may mean a whole bunch of nothing.

[RonR]

Dear MusicDirector,


ML told me that they were not yet sure with which other exhibitors they were going to ally.

[MDP]

That is encouraging. Thank you for your reply!

I received an email from ML yesterday. ML will be demonstrating the Neoliths at T.H.E. Show in Newport in May. I definitely will be attending!

Ron, I can't wait for your thoughts on the Neoliths, I've been waiting for someone to report on these beauties.

[RonR]

Dear Mark,

I have owned ML speakers since 1989. I have always hoped that ML would make a bigger version of the Monoliths, or a smaller, four column version of the Statements.

Can the Neoliths be three times as good as CLX Arts with two subwoofers? We shall see (ah, hear).

PS: I personally prefer the ML hybrid systems to the full range panels with external subwoofers. I find the full range panels to be too lean-sounding in the 200 to 400 hz range, and so I like the way the hybrid systems cross over to the cones at a higher frequency than the frequency at which the full range systems cross over to the external subwoofers.

[MusicDirector]

Dear MusicDirector,


ML told me that they were not yet sure with which other exhibitors they were going to ally.

We'll see. I just sent an email to the good folks at the Paradigm half to see if they will be there. I don't know though it's been a long time since they did a show and they have never been to the newport one to my knowledge.

[MusicDirector]

Dear Mark,

I have owned ML speakers since 1989. I have always hoped that ML would make a bigger version of the Monoliths, or a smaller, four column version of the Statements.

Can the Neoliths be three times as good as CLX Arts with two subwoofers? We shall see (ah, hear).

PS: I personally prefer the ML hybrid systems to the full range panels with external subwoofers. I find the full range panels to be too lean-sounding in the 200 to 400 hz range, and so I like the way the hybrid systems cross over to the cones at a higher frequency than the frequency at which the full range systems cross over to the external subwoofers.

I don't know which model of ML electrostats I heard almost 3 years ago, but I really liked them. I don't have the right room for them though otherwise I would have seriously considered them.

[Garth]

I heard the Neoliths at TAVES the room was not great they had them set up with a curtain behind them . I would like to hear them again set up with out the curtain and with different amps they were using Merdian it did not seem to work the day I was there . The speaker looks better in person than in the pics I have seen. The list price in Canada 100,000 thats a big jump over the CLXs with subs .

[Mike]

I heard the Neoliths at TAVES the room was not great they had them set up with a curtain behind them . I would like to hear them again set up with out the curtain and with different amps they were using Merdian it did not seem to work the day I was there . The speaker looks better in person than in the pics I have seen. The list price in Canada 100,000 thats a big jump over the CLXs with subs .

Garth - the Neolith's were met with mixed reviews at RMAF too. I've heard them a few times now....just don't know. The first time was with McIntosh in a tiny room at Axpona and it was decent on one song and then not so much the second. At RMAF, they were running their crazy surround/4 channel demo. Hard to tell. Too gimmicky a production.

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[Odyssey]

Of all the speakers that I have heard in the last several years the one that sticks in my auditory memory is the ML CLX art. Went back several times to hear them before I made my initial speaker purchase. This is the girl that I wish I would have dated longer before I popped the question.

More recently, I've heard the Neo's at several shows and they didn't do it for me the way the CLX's did.

[RonR]

I've heard the Neo's at several shows and they didn't do it for me the way the CLX's did.

That is interesting, especially since you like dynamic driver speakers best. Would you please describe with as much specificity and detail as possible why you preferred the CLX Art over the Neolith, and what you did not care for about the Neolith?

[Jim Smith]

Of all the speakers that I have heard in the last several years the one that sticks in my auditory memory is the ML CLX art. Went back several times to hear them before I made my initial speaker purchase. This is the girl that I wish I would have dated longer before I popped the question.

More recently, I've heard the Neo's at several shows and they didn't do it for me the way the CLX's did.

The CLX with a pair of Descent i subs is in the top five systems I ever voiced.

[Odyssey]

That is interesting, especially since you like dynamic driver speakers best. Would you please describe with as much specificity and detail as possible why you preferred the CLX Art over the Neolith, and what you did not care for about the Neolith?

Not sure that I can give you the precise answer you are looking for. What it boils down to for me is emotional engagement. I found that to be lacking with the Neo's.

I'll confess to a bias: If a product such as the Neo costs a multiple of the CLX I go in with high expectations. If those high expectations are not met then I walk away disappointed. It doesn't matter if the Neo got 70% of the way there or 85% of the way, (not that I'm thinking in those terms when I'm in the listening position) if the expectations are not met or more importantly exceeded then listening chagrin sets in and its on to the next room at the audio show.

Let me take a stab at your question though. I found the CLX to be a window into the music. Extremely revealing and transparent. On one particular piano sonata I was listening to I could hear the pianist engaging the foot pedal damper. I found the Neo a little more muddled and not as high up on that scale of what I remember the CLX's doing well. In short, the Neo's presentation for me was not emotionally engaging. It did not provide a window into the music or set my foot moving up and down.

[Jim Smith]

How do you KNOW that either pair were performing at or near their potential?

Not trying to argue, just asking the question that I always ask myself...

[RonR]

Thank you, Odyssey.

[Odyssey]

How do you KNOW that either pair were performing at or near their potential?

Not trying to argue, just asking the question that I always ask myself...

That's an excellent question. I don't know. However I heard the Neo's under several different show conditions. I went in wanting to like them.

But the reader has to take into account my self-confessed listening/evaluation bias. If I go in with very high expectations and they are not met, my focus turns elsewhere.

[Garth]

How do you KNOW that either pair were performing at or near their potential?

Not trying to argue, just asking the question that I always ask myself...

The highs were not there the bass was muddy I have the clxs with decent i subs I am sure in my own mind the 100,000 dollar speaker should be a lot better than what I heard. I am not saying the CLXs are perfect but they have a magic that draws you in. I have added two more Decent I subs 4 in total thou only 3 are working one arrived DOA and is being fixed under warranty as we speak . I have them stacked a poor mans statement system.

Jim if you are ever working in the Toronto Canada area I would be open to having you do some work for me on my system . We met once at a RMAF a few years back read the book and I like your ideas. I am in no rush but my system seems to be what I am going to keep, getting the most out of what I have seems like a solid plan.