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  1. #1
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    Lyra Kleos versus Delos

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    Recently broke stylus off the Delos. Took the opportunity to upgrade to the Kleos. 10 hours in and i am not convinced it is better than Delos. More analytical and detailed in the mids and highs, but does not seem to have the low end punch as the Delos had. Listen to variety of music including heavy metal, rock, pop, jazz and classical. So plenty different types of music to compare the Kleos to. True, lower voltage versus the Delos, thus increase the gain to 66 and stayed with 100 ohms. Thoughts? Do i need to wait for break in?

    Equipment:
    Vpi classic 1, simaudio 740p preamp, 860a amp, 810lp phonostage, transparent reference cable and franco serblin Ktemas speakers.

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  2. #2
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    give the kleos a few more hours and they'll be indistinguishable from one another I owned both and imo they're cut from the same sonic cloth. makes me wonder if the Atlas is worth the premium (of course its is).

    Syntax, who is an experienced 'phile on audiogon and owns most if not all of the current Lyras, rates the Delos highly.

  3. #3
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    Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Yes i read many of Syntax comments on Audiogon. Im getting good input from all. I still have the Delos and looking to repair it when i move to Japan.

    I can imagine the Atlas is amazing, but a little beyond what i want to pay. Love to hear sometime though.

  4. #4

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    give the kleos a few more hours and they'll be indistinguishable from one another I owned both and imo they're cut from the same sonic cloth. makes me wonder if the Atlas is worth the premium (of course its is).

    Syntax, who is an experienced 'phile on audiogon and owns most if not all of the current Lyras, rates the Delos highly.
    .

    Of course when you get into the rarified air of the creme de la creme of transducers, the arm and phono section (not to mention table) is especially important. Ergo,the Kleos may perform better in a wider range of arms than the Atlas will. Me thinks that if you hear the Atlas in your system, you would be very impressed by what it does and there would be no question of its superiority.

    The best arms and tables have improved to the point that I feel that the colorations and limitations of phono sections - particularly when it comes to dynamics and noise floor - are currently the limiting factor in analog playback. Of course the situation is always fluid.

    Of course the Lyra has to be blessed by Dietrich first or It's crap.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  5. #5
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    I agree with you. I prefer the sound of the Delos I find it has better air and action in the upper frequencies and a bit more boogie in the bass. The Kleos to me also sounded a little constrained/contained and not enough air in the upper frequencies.

    first up, try the Kleos loaded a bit higher towards 500ohms - it will open up a bit more and the bass will develop.

    cheers
    Source: Technics SP10mk3 - Thales Simplicity II, TW Raven AC-3 - Graham Phantom, SME 3012-R, Exclusive P3,,Linn LP12 - Naim ARO
    Cartridges: Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, Lyra Etna SL, Lyra Delos, Dynavector XV-1s,Technics EPC100mk4, Ortofon A90, GM Royal, GM Classic, Denon ESC'd 103R, DL-S1, Audio Technica AT25, OC9II, Linn ESC'd Troika
    Phono Stage: Phasemation EA-1200, Accuphase C-37,TW Acustik phono
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    Preamp: D'Agostino HD, conrad johnson GAT,
    Amps: conrad johnson teflon premier 8a's, D'Agostino Momentum S250
    Speakers: Wilson Maxx3

  6. #6
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Thank you. I'll try 500ohms and let you know. The tracking force is 1.75, but the shop set it at 2.2 g. I compromised at 2.0g where it sounded fuller than the recommended 1.75. What's your experience?

  7. #7

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Harris4crna View Post
    Thank you. I'll try 500ohms and let you know. The tracking force is 1.75, but the shop set it at 2.2 g. I compromised at 2.0g where it sounded fuller than the recommended 1.75. What's your experience?
    First, 10 hours is no hours. The Lyras definitely take 50 hours or more to break in. Initially, they sound good for 5 or so hours, then the performance drops until about 30 hours (you may even hear some mild mistracking) and then everything loosens up and comes together. But clearly the frequency extremes are compromised at the beginning. In fact, the low end and dynamics are the last qualities to stabilize.

    Second, sorry to be so blunt but can the setup guy in your store read? The newest Lyras because of their construction and magnet/coil juxtaposition MUST be tracked at the recommended tracking force! 1.75 gm should be perfect in the VPI arm.

    So after the cartridge breaks in and you still think it's bass shy, then the question is whether they set the geometry, particularly the SRA/VTA correctly. If the Kleos is still bass shy, you may want to play with dropping the arm height.

    Finally, given that you have a ss phono section, I'd definitely try for 10X the internal impedance or slightly higher. Try 75-180 ohm area but think you will be happier at 100 ohms after the geometry and tracking force issues are settled.

    Your patience will be rewarded.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  8. #8
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    I had the Delos on my Classic 1 before I bought the Kleos. To be honest, I'm not sure the Kleos is worth the extra money over the Delos.

    Don't get me wrong, I love my Kleos. But I'm pretty sure I would have been just as happy with the Delos.
    Mark


    Kharma DB9 Signature
    Pass Labs XP32......incoming
    Pass Labs X350.8
    Esoteric N-05XD
    VPI Avenger with Magnetic Drive
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  9. #9

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP View Post
    I had the Delos on my Classic 1 before I bought the Kleos. To be honest, I'm not sure the Kleos is worth the extra money over the Delos.

    Don't get me wrong, I love my Kleos. But I'm pretty sure I would have been just as happy with the Delos.
    Were you able to compare them side by side? That's really the telling test.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  10. #10
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Great thread guys. I'm really getting good input here. I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of my new Delos cart. I was fortunate enough to do a side by side listen on a Linn TT setup similar to mine and could hear them in close order. There was no question the Kleos had more dynamics and exhibited a more airy and detailed presentation. It was a cut above. Money,however made my final decision to go with Delos but it was easy since I listened to the Delos before the Kleos and was bowled over right then. Had i not heard the Kleos it would still be sonic nirvana for me. Olskool


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    ARC Ref 210 Mono's, ARC Ref 5SE, ARC Ref Phono2, NordostTyr1interconnects, NAD M5 CD/SACD, Linn LP12, Ekos 1, Booplinth, Lyra Delos cart, Kore, HRS1 Isolation table, Pioneer RT-707 Reel, Wilson Sophia, Nordost Tyr speaker cables, Kubala Sosna Emotion Interconnects / Power Cable, QB4 conditioner, StillPoint SS Isolation, StillPoint Aperatures, Nordost Power cables, ASC Tube Traps

  11. #11
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    Were you able to compare them side by side? That's really the telling test.
    No I didn't Myles. And you're right, that's the only way to be sure. But I was told that the Kleos was a pretty significant upgrade, and I just didn't feel that it was.

    That said, I really do love it and I don't plan on changing anytime in the near future.
    Mark


    Kharma DB9 Signature
    Pass Labs XP32......incoming
    Pass Labs X350.8
    Esoteric N-05XD
    VPI Avenger with Magnetic Drive
    Manley Chinook Phono Pre
    Ortofon Cadenza Black cartridge
    Kharma Elegance speaker cables
    Kharma Elegance interconnects
    REL Subs

  12. #12
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    if cash is tight, the Dorian is an alternative to the Delos. I imported one a few months ago with the Koetsu. the street price in Japan is a bargain at under 700 and it delivers the sonic goods . i don't think Audioquest brings them in (shame).
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #13

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    if cash is tight, the Dorian is an alternative to the Delos. I imported one a few months ago with the Koetsu. the street price in Japan is a bargain under 700 and it delivers the sonic goods . i don't think Audioquest brings them in (shame).

    How does it compare to the Delos??
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  14. #14

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    if cash is tight, the Dorian is an alternative to the Delos. I imported one a few months ago with the Koetsu. the street price in Japan is a bargain at under 700 and it delivers the sonic goods . i don't think Audioquest brings them in (shame).
    As the Dorian is listed on Lyra's website as out of production, the best explanation is this seller luckily either had some in stock or they were counterfeit. Hopefully not the last but not unbeknownst nowadays.

    LYRA - Transducer
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  15. #15
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    the bass is nearly the same, the Delos is slighlty more resolving (barely) the stage width, depth and very similar. Spec-wise the Delos has a lower internal impedance and by extension a lower output. (.45 vs .6) I can see throwing away the performance advantage of the Delos if your phonostage has borderline gain or limited loading options. they're both built to high standards.

  16. #16

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    the bass is nearly the same, the Delos is slighlty more resolving (barely) the stage width, depth and very similar. Spec-wise the Delos has a lower internal impedance and by extension a lower output. (.45 vs .6) I can see throwing away the performance advantage of the Delos if your phonostage has borderline gain or limited loading options. they're both built to high standards.
    Thanks. I'm currently missing the Hagerman Trumpet Reference phono section that I just reviewed and have sent back to Jim Hagerman.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  17. #17
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    As the Dorian is listed on Lyra's website as out of production, the best explanation is this seller luckily either had some in stock or they were counterfeit. Hopefully not the last but not unbeknownst nowadays.

    LYRA - Transducer
    NOS then, get 'em while they're hot! OOP doesn't phase me, my favorite Lyras are 20 years old (Clavis DC, Helikon)

    BTW, Im buying direct from B&M shops in Japan, no way they're counterfeit, 2nds or whatever.

  18. #18

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    NOS then, get 'em while they're hot! OOP doesn't phase me, my favorite Lyras are 20 years old (Clavis DC, Helikon)

    BTW, Im buying direct from B&M shops in Japan, no way they're counterfeit, 2nds or whatever.
    No Helikon fan here. Never warmed up to it because the Helikon had an unnatural thinness to the lower midrange/upper bass region. While it was far more money, the Parnassus really outperformed and highlighted the Helikon's weaknesses.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  19. #19

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    I have heard the Delos, Kleos SL, and the Etna in my system briefly. None of them were broken in so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Had the Delos first. It was very clear sounding but not as resolving as I would like. Could be that would improve with break in. Then a few months later I got to try the Kleos SL and Etna at the same time. Tried the Kleos SL first. It sounded quite a bit different than the Delos to me. Of course the lower output probably had something to do with that. The Kleos SL was more tame and less energetic than the Delos but was a bit more resolving in the mid range. I would have liked a little more treble, and bass energy from the Kleos.

    Finally I tried the Etna. Now this is more like it! A nice balance of energy with plenty of clarity and resolution. Unfortunately above my budget for now.

    I believe a lot will depend on the phono stage and arm/turntable combo you are using. Hard to say what will sound best in another system.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Sean
    Speakers - Innersound Kaya's. Amp - Innersound DPR 500. Analog - Technics SP10 mk2a in DIY plinth, Schroder LT tonearm, Technics EPC 205 mk IIL MM cart with Jico SAS stylus, and Lehmann SCR Phono. Digital - ExaSound E20 mk 3 with upgraded 82 fs clock, and linear PS. Cables - DIY ribbon speaker cable with WBT nextgen connectors, DIY 24 gauge OCC magnet wire interconnects, and USB cable. DIY ribbon PC's with Neotech OCC/Rhodium plated plugs.

  20. #20

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Sean-What phono stage were you using and how much gain were you using?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  21. #21
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    I was lucky enough to pick up a used Lyra Erodion SUT that should be tried with either of these cartridges. Designed for Lyra's low impedance cartridges, it's phenomenal with the Etna. It really brings home the goods! The Erodion steps the cartridge up 26db and it mates perfectly with the mm phono input of the Shindo preamp which has 40db of gain.

    It's dead silent and extremely resolving. It weighs almost six pounds... Much heftier than I would have thought. And gorgeous in person!

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    Bill

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  22. #22

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Hi Mark, Using a Lehmann Silver Cube Reference. It has adjustable gain 36 db for MM. 56 and 66 db for MC. It uses transistors for the MM gain and opamps for the additional MC gain. I find it sounds best without the opamps engaged but then I have to use a MM cart. It still sounds very good with the opamps but I feel it would sound better if it was an all discrete design. Unfortunately an all discrete design would likely be more noisy and/or expensive. That said I still really like this phono stage and for the price I don't think it can be beat. It is also very quiet.

    I had plenty of gain for the Kleos SL in the 66 db gain position. The sound quality is slightly worse at 66 db as opposed to 56 db. One more opamp in the signal path.
    Sean
    Speakers - Innersound Kaya's. Amp - Innersound DPR 500. Analog - Technics SP10 mk2a in DIY plinth, Schroder LT tonearm, Technics EPC 205 mk IIL MM cart with Jico SAS stylus, and Lehmann SCR Phono. Digital - ExaSound E20 mk 3 with upgraded 82 fs clock, and linear PS. Cables - DIY ribbon speaker cable with WBT nextgen connectors, DIY 24 gauge OCC magnet wire interconnects, and USB cable. DIY ribbon PC's with Neotech OCC/Rhodium plated plugs.

  23. #23

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by audioarcher View Post
    Hi Mark, Using a Lehmann Silver Cube Reference. It has adjustable gain 36 db for MM. 56 and 66 db for MC. It uses transistors for the MM gain and opamps for the additional MC gain. I find it sounds best without the opamps engaged but then I have to use a MM cart. It still sounds very good with the opamps but I feel it would sound better if it was an all discrete design. Unfortunately an all discrete design would likely be more noisy and/or expensive. That said I still really like this phono stage and for the price I don't think it can be beat. It is also very quiet.

    I had plenty of gain for the Kleos SL in the 66 db gain position. The sound quality is slightly worse at 66 db as opposed to 56 db. One more opamp in the signal path.
    That and your maximum gain setting may explain your feelings towards the Kleos. I think it's hard to have too much gain for a LOMC cartridge unless the gain is noisy. Maybe I can interest you in my Krell KPE Reference phono stage with outboard power supply. It has gain selectable from 58dB to 76dB in 6dB increments and it's quiet.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  24. #24

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    That and your maximum gain setting may explain your feelings towards the Kleos. I think it's hard to have too much gain for a LOMC cartridge unless the gain is noisy. Maybe I can interest you in my Krell KPE Reference phono stage with outboard power supply. It has gain selectable from 58dB to 76dB in 6dB increments and it's quiet.
    Could be. Did not get to hear it with other phono stages. The phono stage is a big factor in which cartridge sounds best in any particular system.
    Sean
    Speakers - Innersound Kaya's. Amp - Innersound DPR 500. Analog - Technics SP10 mk2a in DIY plinth, Schroder LT tonearm, Technics EPC 205 mk IIL MM cart with Jico SAS stylus, and Lehmann SCR Phono. Digital - ExaSound E20 mk 3 with upgraded 82 fs clock, and linear PS. Cables - DIY ribbon speaker cable with WBT nextgen connectors, DIY 24 gauge OCC magnet wire interconnects, and USB cable. DIY ribbon PC's with Neotech OCC/Rhodium plated plugs.

  25. #25

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    FWIW, I preferred the Delos and Etna on the 56 db setting.
    Sean
    Speakers - Innersound Kaya's. Amp - Innersound DPR 500. Analog - Technics SP10 mk2a in DIY plinth, Schroder LT tonearm, Technics EPC 205 mk IIL MM cart with Jico SAS stylus, and Lehmann SCR Phono. Digital - ExaSound E20 mk 3 with upgraded 82 fs clock, and linear PS. Cables - DIY ribbon speaker cable with WBT nextgen connectors, DIY 24 gauge OCC magnet wire interconnects, and USB cable. DIY ribbon PC's with Neotech OCC/Rhodium plated plugs.

  26. #26

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by audioarcher View Post
    FWIW, I preferred the Delos and Etna on the 56 db setting.
    What linestage and how much gain?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  27. #27

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    What linestage and how much gain?
    I use the Innersound linestage built into the crossover/bass amp for my speakers. It is capable of 10 db extra gain. I have used an additional linestage into it before but it always resulted in less transparent sound. Gain is not an issue.
    Sean
    Speakers - Innersound Kaya's. Amp - Innersound DPR 500. Analog - Technics SP10 mk2a in DIY plinth, Schroder LT tonearm, Technics EPC 205 mk IIL MM cart with Jico SAS stylus, and Lehmann SCR Phono. Digital - ExaSound E20 mk 3 with upgraded 82 fs clock, and linear PS. Cables - DIY ribbon speaker cable with WBT nextgen connectors, DIY 24 gauge OCC magnet wire interconnects, and USB cable. DIY ribbon PC's with Neotech OCC/Rhodium plated plugs.

  28. #28

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    I'm using the kleos loaded at 47k. VTF is 1.78 grams. The difference between 1.72-1.78 g was just a bit more definition in the bass. Gain is around 54 db. Good luck

  29. #29

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by dan31 View Post
    I'm using the kleos loaded at 47k. VTF is 1.78 grams. The difference between 1.72-1.78 g was just a bit more definition in the bass. Gain is around 54 db. Good luck
    Sounds about right to me. The Kleos SL has half the output of the regular Kleos. SL stands for single layer of coils. Which puts it around .25 mv of output instead of .5 mv for the regular version. Have not heard the regular version yet.
    Sean
    Speakers - Innersound Kaya's. Amp - Innersound DPR 500. Analog - Technics SP10 mk2a in DIY plinth, Schroder LT tonearm, Technics EPC 205 mk IIL MM cart with Jico SAS stylus, and Lehmann SCR Phono. Digital - ExaSound E20 mk 3 with upgraded 82 fs clock, and linear PS. Cables - DIY ribbon speaker cable with WBT nextgen connectors, DIY 24 gauge OCC magnet wire interconnects, and USB cable. DIY ribbon PC's with Neotech OCC/Rhodium plated plugs.

  30. #30
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Harris4crna View Post
    Thank you. I'll try 500ohms and let you know. The tracking force is 1.75, but the shop set it at 2.2 g. I compromised at 2.0g where it sounded fuller than the recommended 1.75. What's your experience?
    Myles is spot on re vtf. Must be tracked at around the Lyra recommended tracked tracking give or take 0.1 gm

    What I meant try several loading above 100 up to 500ohms. These are also more within the Lyra recommendation with low/standard capacitance tonearm cable.

    IMS the Delos sounds best on 320ohms, Kleos 500ohms and Atlas 500ohms.

    Cheers, have fun and let is know what sounds best in your system.
    Source: Technics SP10mk3 - Thales Simplicity II, TW Raven AC-3 - Graham Phantom, SME 3012-R, Exclusive P3,,Linn LP12 - Naim ARO
    Cartridges: Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, Lyra Etna SL, Lyra Delos, Dynavector XV-1s,Technics EPC100mk4, Ortofon A90, GM Royal, GM Classic, Denon ESC'd 103R, DL-S1, Audio Technica AT25, OC9II, Linn ESC'd Troika
    Phono Stage: Phasemation EA-1200, Accuphase C-37,TW Acustik phono
    EQ: ​DEQX HDP-4
    Preamp: D'Agostino HD, conrad johnson GAT,
    Amps: conrad johnson teflon premier 8a's, D'Agostino Momentum S250
    Speakers: Wilson Maxx3

  31. #31

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by XV-1 View Post
    Myles is spot on re vtf. Must be tracked at around the Lyra recommended tracked tracking give or take 0.1 gm

    What I meant try several loading above 100 up to 500ohms. These are also more within the Lyra recommendation with low/standard capacitance tonearm cable.

    IMS the Delos sounds best on 320ohms, Kleos 500ohms and Atlas 500ohms.

    Cheers, have fun.
    Shane do you find the same loading recommendations on the PASS and TW Akustic phono stages?
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  32. #32
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    Shane do you find the same loading recommendations on the PASS and TW Akustic phono stages?
    Hi Myles

    With the Kleos and Atlas - yes. The TW goes from 220ohms to 500 ohms. Above that I have no further benefits with upper frequency extension/air but the bass loses a bit of control vs 500ohns.

    With the Delos, Pass 320ohms and TW 220ohms.

    The Lyra's seem to be consistent with loading whereas with some of my other carts, like the Dl-S1 the tube phono is consistently loaded a bit higher than the Pass.

    I guess you prefer the Atlas loaded down, which seems a bit different to Lyra recommendations. The transformer input of the Doshi perhaps makes loading slightly different?

    Cheers
    Source: Technics SP10mk3 - Thales Simplicity II, TW Raven AC-3 - Graham Phantom, SME 3012-R, Exclusive P3,,Linn LP12 - Naim ARO
    Cartridges: Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, Lyra Etna SL, Lyra Delos, Dynavector XV-1s,Technics EPC100mk4, Ortofon A90, GM Royal, GM Classic, Denon ESC'd 103R, DL-S1, Audio Technica AT25, OC9II, Linn ESC'd Troika
    Phono Stage: Phasemation EA-1200, Accuphase C-37,TW Acustik phono
    EQ: ​DEQX HDP-4
    Preamp: D'Agostino HD, conrad johnson GAT,
    Amps: conrad johnson teflon premier 8a's, D'Agostino Momentum S250
    Speakers: Wilson Maxx3

  33. #33

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by XV-1 View Post
    Hi Myles

    With the Kleos and Atlas - yes. The TW goes from 220ohms to 500 ohms. Above that I have no further benefits with upper frequency extension/air but the bass loses a bit of control vs 500ohns.

    With the Delos, Pass 320ohms and TW 220ohms.

    The Lyra's seem to be consistent with loading whereas with some of my other carts, like the Dl-S1 the tube phono is consistently loaded a bit higher than the Pass.

    I guess you prefer the Atlas loaded down, which seems a bit different to Lyra recommendations. The transformer input of the Doshi perhaps makes loading slightly different?

    Cheers
    No the Doshi uses a JFET input not that different from Curl did. No transformers involved.

    Thing is once you get above 10X internal impedance, certainly at 100X, the cartridge is for all intents and purposes unloaded.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  34. #34
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    No the Doshi uses a JFET input not that different from Curl did. No transformers involved.

    Thing is once you get above 10X internal impedance, certainly at 100X, the cartridge is for all intents and purposes unloaded.
    Ah, misread your review. Thought is was like the K&K audio phono with fet and SUT in the gain stage to help the tube gain.

    .Nick opted for a JFET input a la John Curl and a custom designed interstage coupling transformer (made by Brian Sowter (UK) wound with PCOCC wire) to convert from balanced to single-ended operation.
    Source: Technics SP10mk3 - Thales Simplicity II, TW Raven AC-3 - Graham Phantom, SME 3012-R, Exclusive P3,,Linn LP12 - Naim ARO
    Cartridges: Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, Lyra Etna SL, Lyra Delos, Dynavector XV-1s,Technics EPC100mk4, Ortofon A90, GM Royal, GM Classic, Denon ESC'd 103R, DL-S1, Audio Technica AT25, OC9II, Linn ESC'd Troika
    Phono Stage: Phasemation EA-1200, Accuphase C-37,TW Acustik phono
    EQ: ​DEQX HDP-4
    Preamp: D'Agostino HD, conrad johnson GAT,
    Amps: conrad johnson teflon premier 8a's, D'Agostino Momentum S250
    Speakers: Wilson Maxx3

  35. #35

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by XV-1 View Post
    Ah, misread your review. Thought is was like the K&K audio phono with fet and SUT in the gain stage to help the tube gain.
    Guess I didn't consider that a SUT.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  36. #36
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Thanks for all the replies. The salesman dialed it in at 2.2g and stated the suspension can handle it. I dialed back to 2.0g and sounds great. As suggested i changed to 420ohms (500ohms is not an option). Wow, bass has arrived. I may try to change the tracking weight to the suggested 1.75g now and see if it makes a difference. Just curious, having it at 2.0 cause any damage to the suspension over time? Im looking to the experts on this one, thank you.

  37. #37
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Harris4crna View Post
    Thanks for all the replies. The salesman dialed it in at 2.2g and stated the suspension can handle it. I dialed back to 2.0g and sounds great. As suggested i changed to 420ohms (500ohms is not an option). Wow, bass has arrived. I may try to change the tracking weight to the suggested 1.75g now and see if it makes a difference. Just curious, having it at 2.0 cause any damage to the suspension over time? Im looking to the experts on this one, thank you.
    Excellent. I was pretty sure loading it higher was going to improve things quite a bit.

    2 gms is outside of the cartridges tracking force specs and Lyra spend a lot of time fine tuning that - you will notice in the manual that they have an exact recommendation of tracking force. You will see the Lyra is a pretty low rider anyway, so in time it may be an issue.

    I would definately change it back to within the recommended settings.

    btw, your dealer sounds almost incompetent.
    Source: Technics SP10mk3 - Thales Simplicity II, TW Raven AC-3 - Graham Phantom, SME 3012-R, Exclusive P3,,Linn LP12 - Naim ARO
    Cartridges: Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, Lyra Etna SL, Lyra Delos, Dynavector XV-1s,Technics EPC100mk4, Ortofon A90, GM Royal, GM Classic, Denon ESC'd 103R, DL-S1, Audio Technica AT25, OC9II, Linn ESC'd Troika
    Phono Stage: Phasemation EA-1200, Accuphase C-37,TW Acustik phono
    EQ: ​DEQX HDP-4
    Preamp: D'Agostino HD, conrad johnson GAT,
    Amps: conrad johnson teflon premier 8a's, D'Agostino Momentum S250
    Speakers: Wilson Maxx3

  38. #38

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by XV-1 View Post
    Excellent. I was pretty sure loading it higher was going to improve things quite a bit.

    2 gms is outside of the cartridges tracking force specs and Lyra spend a lot of time fine tuning that - you will notice in the manual that they have an exact recommendation of tracking force. You will see the Lyra is a pretty low rider anyway, so in time it may be an issue.

    I would definately change it back to within the recommended settings.

    btw, your dealer sounds almost incompetent.

    Agreed, but I think it passes "almost."
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  39. #39

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Agreed, but I think it passes "almost."
    +1 2.2 grams is nuts for a Lyra. Always go with the tracking force recommended by the manufacture. 2 grams is still way too much.
    Sean
    Speakers - Innersound Kaya's. Amp - Innersound DPR 500. Analog - Technics SP10 mk2a in DIY plinth, Schroder LT tonearm, Technics EPC 205 mk IIL MM cart with Jico SAS stylus, and Lehmann SCR Phono. Digital - ExaSound E20 mk 3 with upgraded 82 fs clock, and linear PS. Cables - DIY ribbon speaker cable with WBT nextgen connectors, DIY 24 gauge OCC magnet wire interconnects, and USB cable. DIY ribbon PC's with Neotech OCC/Rhodium plated plugs.

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    Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Roger that, i will change to its recommended TF, thanks.

  41. #41
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    Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by audioarcher View Post
    FWIW, I preferred the Delos and Etna on the 56 db setting.
    I currently have the Kleos gain set at 66db. Tried higher, but just sounded grainy.

  42. #42

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Harris4crna View Post
    I currently have the Kleos gain set at 66db. Tried higher, but just sounded grainy.
    Yes can be a trade off between gain and additional gain stages. What is the gain of your line stage?
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Doshi Audio EVO phonostage, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  43. #43
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Forgive my incompetence, line stage?

  44. #44
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Harris4crna View Post
    I currently have the Kleos gain set at 66db. Tried higher, but just sounded grainy.
    ugh...i have yet to hear any phonostage, SS or tube that sounds good and remains transparent pushing 60+ db of gain. the total equation involves your line stage gain, input sensitivity of your amp and efficiency of the speakers themselves.

  45. #45
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    whats the line stage gain of your 740p?

  46. #46
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    i looked it up, 9 db...that's really low.

  47. #47
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    I set it at 66db per the recommendation of the Simaudio 810lp manual. It states the following: When you are using a moving coil cartridge, you will need to increase the gain level setting. This is a general rule for determining the gain of a MC cartridge: For a low output MC cartridge (0.7mV and lower), set the gain level to at least 66dB; medium output MC (0.7mV to 1.5mV) set the gain level to 60dB; for a high output MC (> 1.5mV) set the gain level to 54dB. Since every audio system is different, these are just approximated values.

    This why i set it at 66db. I can try a lower setting and see.

  48. #48
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    Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    i looked it up, 9 db...that's really low.
    Puro, so what does this mean? Ill need to use more gain since my line stage is set at 9db? I am using transparent XLR for my IC through out if this makes a difference. Decreasing to 60db, i need to increase volume on the 740p to 65 which is 10 higher than i usually play it.

  49. #49
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    i'll revise my statement and say the 740p is on the low side. the standard kleos (.5mv) is a med output cart it doesn't sound like you're necessarily lacking gain. i would go with the lowest phono gain setting you can get away with and make up the difference with the line stage, it will mitigate excess noise coming from your phono set up. 9 db of line stage gain dosen't give much to play with, my system likes 15 db at minimum, my CAT has a whopping 27 db.

  50. #50
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    Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Thanks Puro, i got Tf at 1.72g, 420ohms and gain of 60db. Turned up the line stage to make up difference and its sounds purely magnificent. Time to play some tunes.

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