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  1. #51
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Harris4crna View Post
    Puro, so what does this mean? Ill need to use more gain since my line stage is set at 9db? I am using transparent XLR for my IC through out if this makes a difference. Decreasing to 60db, i need to increase volume on the 740p to 65 which is 10 higher than i usually play it.
    Some preamps with lower resolution volume steps have a "sweet" spot on the volume control which is not a good thing imo, as the sound quality should be the same whether the volume is on 10 or 85. The volume number on the pre amp should make no difference to the sound quality and that would be true with your Sim pre amp as it is well designed.

    Just select the phono gain that sounds the best, whether that be at 60db or 66db. Since you have done all your listening at 66db, I would leave it there until you get a handle on the changes you have made with loading and tracking weight.

    cheers
    Source: Technics SP10mk3 - Thales Simplicity II, TW Raven AC-3 - Graham Phantom, SME 3012-R, Exclusive P3,,Linn LP12 - Naim ARO
    Cartridges: Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, Lyra Etna SL, Lyra Delos, Dynavector XV-1s,Technics EPC100mk4, Ortofon A90, GM Royal, GM Classic, Denon ESC'd 103R, DL-S1, Audio Technica AT25, OC9II, Linn ESC'd Troika
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  2. #52
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Guess this is what makes this hobby fun. The art of fine tuning. I will say the Delos made the fine tuning easy. The Kleos is much more sensitive for sure. Love to see some of your guys setup. Thanks.

  3. #53

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    i looked it up, 9 db...that's really low.
    Not as low as the 6dB gain of my ARC Ref 5 SE. I don't know what phono stages you have heard that don't sound good or transparent when set at 60dB of gain, but that has to be in the context of your system. The worst combination you can have is a very low output cartridge and a phono stage without enough gain to drive it properly. Yeah, it will be quiet without enough gain and your volume turned down low, but it will be dead sounding. But then, you are hooked on SUTs aren't you?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  4. #54
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by Harris4crna View Post
    Puro, so what does this mean? Ill need to use more gain since my line stage is set at 9db? I am using transparent XLR for my IC through out if this makes a difference. Decreasing to 60db, i need to increase volume on the 740p to 65 which is 10 higher than i usually play it.
    the 740p uses a DVC of some sort to control volume. your manual should state the numerical value on the display that translates to unity gain. if your usual listening volume is at or below unity gain then you have plenty of head room. an experiment you can try is lowering the phono gain another step, you'll need to raise the level to a higher numerical value on the 740p for the same volume but it may yield a slightly better (or worse ) s/n of your phono setup.

    today's line stages are mostly low-gain and optimized for digital sources, its part of the current obsession with improving specs. high gain line stages really benefit phono user most. my pet peeve of current SOTA gear is the lack of adjustable line stage gain and adjustable input sensitivity (power amps).

  5. #55
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Not as low as the 6dB gain of my ARC Ref 5 SE. I don't know what phono stages you have heard that don't sound good or transparent when set at 60dB of gain, but that has to be in the context of your system. The worst combination you can have is a very low output cartridge and a phono stage without enough gain to drive it properly. Yeah, it will be quiet without enough gain and your volume turned down low, but it will be dead sounding. But then, you are hooked on SUTs aren't you?
    Have you heard the same phono stage that sounds better at 60 db of gain than 45? I never have. with the CAT I have the option of using a SUT or not. with the Koetsu at .4mv I have enough clean gain. I've rewired my SUTs and lowered them to 10 db for my Clavis DC (.25mV), the CAT will still take the Clavis straight in w/o the SUT and the noise floor is still bearable.

  6. #56

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    Have you heard the same phono stage that sounds better at 60 db of gain than 45? I never have. with the CAT I have the option of using a SUT or not. with the Koetsu at .4mv I have enough clean gain. I've rewired my SUTs and lowered them to 10 db for my Clavis DC (.25mV), the CAT will still take the Clavis straight in w/o the SUT and the noise floor is still bearable.
    First of all, I haven't owned any MC cartridges in the last 100 years or so that would work with only 45dB of gain without a boatload of noise so I really can't answer your first question. I owned a CAT preamp before, and I didn't find it's performance with LOMC cartridges to be the joy that others who love CAT do. I can't imagine that the CAT will be quiet with a .25mV cartridge because I know from experience it won't. I never thought the phono section in the CAT was all it was touted to be. I also never liked the course steps on the volume pot. Unlike Goldilocks, it's damn near impossible to find 'just right' on the volume control. I was happy to move the CAT on down the road and never look back.

    I am hoping to get a chance to hear the Zesto phono stage in my system and it does use SUTs. I heard a full Zesto system at RMAF 2014 and was mightily impressed.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  7. #57
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Mark, i take it you never owned a high-gain line stage or owned an ARC SP-11. I had one in the house recently, one of the best full-featured preamps I've had the pleasure of owning: only 46 db of phono gain and 29 db of line stage gain - it was optimized for carts down to .3mV or so. Which version of the CAT did you own? the Mk I & II was a different animal. the MK III is essentially the same circuit as the current Ultimate sans the defeatable internal SUT, adjustable line stage gain and dual mono pots.

    I owned the Zesto andros, it wasnt bad but the Rouge Ares I compared it to out-boogied it for a lot less coin.

  8. #58

    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    Mark, i take it you never owned a high-gain line stage or owned an ARC SP-11. I had one in the house recently, one of the best full-featured preamps I've had the pleasure of owning: only 46 db of phono gain and 29 db of line stage gain - it was optimized for carts down to .3mV or so. Which version of the CAT did you own? the Mk I & II was a different animal. the MK III is essentially the same circuit as the current Ultimate sans the defeatable internal SUT, adjustable line stage gain and dual mono pots.

    I owned the Zesto andros, it wasnt bad but the Rouge Ares I compared it to out-boogied it for a lot less coin.
    Depends on what you want to call high-gain. I owned the CAT and it was the MKII. I owned a fully tricked out Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp which had selectable gain from 12dB to 18dB. Tell me more about the Rogue phono section. In what meaningful way did it sound better than the Zesto?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  9. #59
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    Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    740p manual states: The rotary “volume” control determines the gain setting, which ranges from ‘0.0dB’ (no output) to ’80.0dB’ (full output). This control does not function like a typical volume: When you rotate the dial, either clockwise to raise the volume or counter- clockwise to lower the volume, you are actually engaging a precision optical encoder which selects very high quality metal-film resistors that the audio signal passes through. The result is a proprietary
    gain circuit, called M-eVOL2 that doesn’t degrade the audio signal regardless of the setting, unlike all potentiometer based circuits. Since this circuitry operates in a fully balanced differential mode, no noise is introduced to the audio signal. Furthermore, there are no actual moving parts, so this technology has a minimum life expectancy of one million rotations.

    So, having an optimal loudness (no need to go louder) of the volume control set at 65 at current gain at 60db set in the phonostage should be fine.

  10. #60
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    After tweaking loading, gain and changing TF i am convinced Kleos is better than my old Delos. Just sensitive and need to be tweaked to get it right.

  11. #61
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    In the process of purchasing a Kleos. Thanks for all the detailed setup info guys. It will come in handy.
    Vine, Vide, Velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around.

  12. #62
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    In the process of purchasing a Kleos. Thanks for all the detailed setup info guys. It will come in handy.


    Sweet!!! Congrats Bob.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

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  13. #63
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    Re: Lyra Kleos versus Delos

    Here i am again with the new Accuphase C-3850 line stage with adjustable gain settings. The C-3850 has adjustable gain to 24db with a recommended gain setting of 18db. Have the simaudio 810lp connected with balance cables to the bal(ad) inputs of the c-3850. Not sure what the significance of the AD on the c-3850, but the manual recommends to utilize the inputs for a phono stage. I have A/B the C-3850 with the simaudio 740p which has a fixed gain setting of 9db. I will say playing vinyl with the current phono stage settings set for the moon does not do as well with the C-3850. Sounds a little muddied through the C-3850. I am thinking i may need to decrease the gain of the phono stage to match the c-3850. Perhaps the simaudio phono stage dont play well with other brands other than their own, who knows. Thought?


    Harris4crna. Accuphase A-70 class a amp and C-3850 preamp. Franco Serblin Ktema speakers. VPI Classic 1 TT with Simaudio 810LP phono stage and VPI SDS. Transparent Reference Speaker cable and IC. Quadraspire racks and much more.

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