TAD CR-1 and TAD Reference One

[johnthomas]

All the reviews and personally reports on these speakers are always stellar. I've never read a negative report. But every other speaker out their that are great always have a one or two buts to it. Is it me or are TAD'S the best out there today.

[socfan12]

Hi John,

I heard the Ref1s at the NY Audio show and thought it was one of the best in show for my taste. Am considering a pair of CR1s myself in fact. Before I pull the trigger, I'm going to look at some full range speakers first, like the S5 and the Rockport Avior. But I have read the same as you and think they could be simply amazing in the right setup!

Calling Joe...

[joeinid]

John,

I've never heard the Reference Ones but I have to say my CR-1's are amazing and sometimes frustrating. I love, love, love what they do 99% of the time. That other 1% is with cds/sources that are not the best. They show exactly what's going on upstream and are, to my ear, very neutral. With great sources, I really do not think it can get any better. I have not tried moderate to higher powered tube gear with them, but I am willing to give it a go. While it's true that I have seriously thought about selling them, I really do not think at this point I can really give them up. I don't know of any other speaker that will satisfy me in the way that "I" listen to music. Most of my listening is late night through to early morning at low to moderate volume. I am getting them to truly disappear and with either the Dartzeel or the Dagostino, their flavor comes though and it's stunning.

I hope others with TAD experience will add their opinions. I am at the point where I may add another speaker for variety but can not see myself TAD-less.

Allen

[johnthomas]

Do you think my MSB S200 has enough power to drive the Reference One's completely especially the woofers? At 200 watts a side or will I need some Mac 1.2K's to finish the job.

John

[The Sandman]

If I'm not mistaken, the Reference Ones love power. Before they made their own amps, TAD used to show these with a pair of Pass Labs XA160.5s on the mids/highs and a pair of X600.5s on the woofers. That's some serious juice.

[joeinid]

Do you think my MSB S200 has enough power to drive the Reference One's completely especially the woofers? At 200 watts a side or will I need some Mac 1.2K's to finish the job.

John

200 @ 4 or 8 ohms? It's enough for me. My Dartzeel is 160 wpc at 4 ohms. The Reference Ones are more efficient than the CR-1's. I agree with Howard that more power is always welcome. I really would like to try Brian's aka klipschfan's MC1.2KW on my CR-1's for the fun of it but I don't need the juice. I am not crazy about bi-amping but if done properly can be great.

John,

Looks like your amp is 200 @ 8 ohms and probably 400+ @ 4 ohms. For me that will be plenty especially for the Ref Ones because they are at least 90dB efficient.

[hiro100]

Do you think my MSB S200 has enough power to drive the Reference One's completely especially the woofers? At 200 watts a side or will I need some Mac 1.2K's to finish the job.

John

Hi John,

The answer is simple. Just upgrade to the MSB Mono's and get four of them!

tadroom_500.jpg

I would think at 200 watts per side, it would be sufficient but like others have said, more power can't be a bad thing right? I had the baby brother Pioneer 2-EX speakers and they did like lots of power and seemed to open up when doing so. It was a really interesting speaker. I normally don't proscribe to bi-amping and do not like Class D amps in general but both worked really well with that particular speaker. Dunno why. Will be curious to see how they pair up with the MSB amps if you ever get to try that combination.

[socfan12]

This is the setup I heard at the NY show. I read somewhere in my research on the CR1s they sounded awesome at a show with some Cary Audio electronics driving them.

[socfan12]

...
John,

Looks like your amp is 200 @ 8 ohms and probably 400+ @ 4 ohms. For me that will be plenty especially for the Ref Ones because they are at least 90dB efficient.

Agreed.

[socfan12]

hiro100, welcome to AS!

Do you have the Ref1s or the CR1s? If so, what do you drive them with?

[joeinid]

041513ciamara.ab.2.jpg041513ciamara.ab.1.jpg

[hiro100]

Thanks Allen

No I have the Vivid Giya speakers and used to drive them with MSB Mono amps. I recently sold the amps and am in the process of trying out a few amplifiers and am curious to see how a tube amplifier will work with my speakers. I use the MSB Dac IV as a source and preamplifier. I did have the Pioneer 2-EX speakers for a short period of time but I am sure the TAD series are a significant step up from those speakers.

[socfan12]

I hope others with TAD experience will add their opinions. I am at the point where I may add another speaker for variety but can not see myself TAD-less.

Allen

Haha, just read this! LOL! But I don't blame you. They are the speaker to beat IMO.

[joeinid]

I am seriously thinking about trying an ARC Ref 75 or Ref 150 to see where that takes me on the CR-1's. Based on past experience, I do have a feeling the CJ ART amp(s) would be the logical choice for me but I am in no way ready for that step.

Thanks Allen

No I have the Vivid Giya speakers and used to drive them with MSB Mono amps. I recently sold the amps and am in the process of trying out a few amplifiers and am curious to see how a tube amplifier will work with my speakers. I use the MSB Dac IV as a source and preamplifier. I did have the Pioneer 2-EX speakers for a short period of time but I am sure the TAD series are a significant step up from those speakers.

[joeinid]

Haha, just read this! LOL! But I don't blame you. They are the speaker to beat IMO.

We'll have to talk when you are ready but at the point when I think, okay try something else, I play something that just floors me. This is terrible hobby, err, obsession.

[socfan12]

I don't know about you, Joe, but I'm follicly challenged already. This speaker selection process is just gonna make me lose it!

[joeinid]

[socfan12]

Hiro, would be great to hear what other amps you are considering. Maybe start a thread?

[veindoc]

I love my cr-1 but getting the right sweet amp with adequate power is a journey. Best I have tried so far were the Viola Labs Symphony especially at low volumn listening. For my layout just too big a box too fit on my desk area. Sonically outstanding and does not run too hot. Amps that have not worked have included ayre even vx-5, mx-r, my current MF f-15 100 watt per channel class A amp, rowland 201, rowland 625 was actually pretty nice. MY short list is now Lindeman 858, rowland new pascal based module 525(same innards as their reference 925) and merrill twin(same power as veritas in a single chassis. ) How do you like your MSB stuff. I will demo their analog dac next week. MY short list is Ayre new qb-9 dsd, luxman or the msb dac. Thnx. BTW the NY show biamped TAD ref. with tubes on tweeter and mids and viola symphony on woofer. I heard sound was stunning. Sanjay at Ciamera a good guy to bounce off TAD amp possibilities. Nick

[Mike]

I love my cr-1 but getting the right sweet amp with adequate power is a journey. Best I have tried so far were the Viola Labs Symphony especially at low volumn listening. For my layout just too big a box too fit on my desk area. Sonically outstanding and does not run too hot. Amps that have not worked have included ayre even vx-5, mx-r, my current MF f-15 100 watt per channel class A amp, rowland 201, rowland 625 was actually pretty nice. MY short list is now Lindeman 858, rowland new pascal based module 525(same innards as their reference 925) and merrill twin(same power as veritas in a single chassis. ) How do you like your MSB stuff. I will demo their analog dac next week. MY short list is Ayre new qb-9 dsd, luxman or the msb dac. Thnx. BTW the NY show biamped TAD ref. with tubes on tweeter and mids and viola symphony on woofer. I heard sound was stunning. Sanjay at Ciamera a good guy to bounce off TAD amp possibilities. Nick

Nick - what about a pair of Mc 601's for the CR-1's? The slight veiled sound might just be the ticket (don't flame me Mc fans, I love Mc and am thinking of getting a 452/2500 for my downstairs system). I heard some 601's on some speakers which would normally be considered "overly revealing" and damn did it sound good. When they switch to another amp, it was uncomfortable to say the least. Just a thought....

[veindoc]

no room for large monoblocks or large stereo amps . pain but my desk location limits me to 17.4 inch wide amps or small monoblocks. This allows me short speaker and short interconnect cables.
Nick

[Mike]

So even a 302 or 452 wouldn't fit?

[joeinid]

Nick - what about a pair of Mc 601's for the CR-1's? The slight veiled sound might just be the ticket (don't flame me Mc fans, I love Mc and am thinking of getting a 452/2500 for my downstairs system). I heard some 601's on some speakers which would normally be considered "overly revealing" and damn did it sound good. When they switch to another amp, it was uncomfortable to say the least. Just a thought....

This combination has crossed my mind many times. I've always wondered how MC601's/MC1.2KW's would sound on my TADs. Maybe I'll get to hear it for myself soon.

[veindoc]

too big and deep. I hope this weeks Merrill, Rowland or soon to hear Lindemann 858 will provide a solution I will truly love. If not I may just bite the bullit and get the Viola Symphony- a 125 beast that is so snug a fit on my desk it will probably look weird and melt the varnish of my side walls of my desk. Hopefully a solution exists in the near future.
Nick

[MrAcoustat]

All the reviews and personally reports on these speakers are always stellar. I've never read a negative report. But every other speaker out their that are great always have a one or two buts to it. Is it me or are TAD'S the best out there today.

No John, it's you they are the best out there for YOU and for me it's something else dollar for dollar the best bang for the buck that i have heard in more than 40 years is this pair of DIY Acoustat Spectra 8800s Acoustat Spectra 8800 05.jpg to be honest if the Wilson Alexandria's are worth 200k well these babies are worth at least double and i have heard both many times of course there is always a question of CHOICE and for ME the Wilson's don't even come close and i'm not kidding.

[Mike]

How tall a ceiling do you need with those? Holy mackerel. Well, I would call those definitely "theft proof".

[cmalak]

Nick - what about a pair of Mc 601's for the CR-1's? The slight veiled sound might just be the ticket (don't flame me Mc fans, I love Mc and am thinking of getting a 452/2500 for my downstairs system). I heard some 601's on some speakers which would normally be considered "overly revealing" and damn did it sound good. When they switch to another amp, it was uncomfortable to say the least. Just a thought....

Mike..generally speaking, I would not recommend anyone try to mask an issue with another component that errs on the other side of that issue, if that makes sense. Many peope try to use cabling as tone controls or will use a dark sounding amp to compensate for a bright sounding speaker, etc...The problem with doing that is that youj degrade the overall performance of the combined system on all source material. So in Joe's example, my sense is he finds the TADs a bit peaky or toppy on poorly mastered digital material and it causes listening fatigue. He places that phenomenon at 1% of his listening time (meaning on 1% of that source material), so on 99% of the music he listens to, he is happier than a pig in shysta If he were to put a darker sounding amp to compensate for that 1% of his listening to tame the "brightness" he is experiencing, than what happens to the performance on the 99% of his source material? My guess is it will sound less open, transparent, see-through, dimensional, resolving than is currently the case and my guess is he will not be happy on 100% of his sources. As a general rule, you do not want to mask one issue by placing another component in the chain that will counteract or compensate for that issue with the exact opposite characteristic. It will just "dumb down" the system.

So I am not making an observation about any specific equipment you mentioned (i.e., I am not saying MC 601s are dark, etc...), I am just talking about the general principle. In Joe's case, he has two options in my opinion:

1) Don't listen to that 1% of music that comes through in a fatiguing manner on his TADs. Load all of it on your iPhone, portable musical whatever and listen to it in the car or on a Bose wave system or what have you
2) Replace the TADs with a more forgiving speaker in the treble range but that are still super resolving and have that see-through quality that the TADs have

Just my 2c

[socfan12]

Nick,

Have you considered Vitus Audio? They are supposed to sound wonderful, and their integrated RI-100 is 300wpc and fits your size requirements. There's a video of their higher end, albeit lowere powered SIA-025 integrated driving the power hungry S5s.

Just a thought.

[Mike]

Cyril - I will respectfully disagree. Achieving optimum sound is all about balance/counter-balance (Ying and Yang) - its not masking. Matching warm speakers with detailed gear. Matching detailed speakers with warm amps/preamp. Cables and sources also have a lot to do with the proper mixing/matching synergy too.

When I heard some very detailed speakers a few weeks ago with ARC gear, I did not like it at all. When they put the 601's on them, WOW.

Too much of a good thing in a system - is not a good thing! It's like baking. You need the right amount and balance of ingredients.

Just my 2 cents.

[joeinid]

Cyril, Mike,

I can see both points clearly. I do not think McIntosh would would be a step back.

As much as I like my Dartzeel gear, I also like to switch off to the Dagostino. The TADs are a clear window to what's upstream. I do admit I am probably not like other audiophiles because I do enjoy all my gear and all my music. I enjoy my poorly recorded music as much as my better recorded music. I can not give up music that I like because it does not sound perfect on my system. Sure some combinations were/are better, but at no time could I not stand what I was listening to. I do listen to the music more than I listen to my system, I believe.

[cmalak]

Mike...I totally appreciate your point of view and I do not think we are that far apart. My use of Joe's situation as an example for my point was a bit of a stretch (if I had Joe's gear, my ass would be parked in my listening chair ad infinitum and I would never leave the house ). Of course, system matching is about finding components that are synergistic (I hate that word...most overused word ever!)...no argument from me. The general point I was making is that you do not want to mask a deficiency in one portion of the system by adding another component either upstream or downstream of that piece of gear with the opposite sonic attribute because that will bring overall system performance down. In your example above where you heard the detailed speakers with ARC and you did not like the combo but then when you inserted the MC601s, all was well, I would argue may have made sense in the context of a brief audition because it sounds like the MC601s tamed the top end quite a bit (very detailed speakers usually are lean and tonally thin, meaning a lot upper mid and treble energy that showcase and thrust info in your face but that lack body and naturalness...a coloration if you will). The right answer for me in that situation is to walk away from those speakers and find speakers low in coloration (warmth is a coloration...too much lower mid and bass energy that masks mid and treble info, which dulls overall resolution and bright is also a coloration...which is the exact opposite of a warm speaker....too much upper mid and treble info coming your way at the expense of lower mid and bass energy which will make speakers sound thin and leanbecause they are tonally skewed up).

In any case, my point is probably one of degrees. As I said in Joe's scenario, his gear is stellar and and were I fortunate enough to own it, that would probably be the last stereo system I would own for at least a decade or two. His situation is probably very much a tweak where getting the right component to match the TADs on that last 1% is absolutely the right answer. I was being too emphatic with my post above to illustrate the general point I was trying to make. In fact, I believe the D'Ag pre (despite Joe's frustration with the long wait ) may be just the right thing when paired up with the D'Ag stereo amp (I said as much in the D'Ag pre thread).

In any case, we all bring our experiences in this hobby with differeing points of view. I am a believer in the weakest link in the chain approach which is to say you don't mask one deficiency in the chain with another piece of gear in the chain with the opposite sonic attribute but rather you switch out the offending piece of gear. There is no perfect transducer (every speaker has some coloration) and there is no perfectly neutral and resolving amplification or source that can deliver on that ideal of being as transparent as a piece of wire with gain. With that in mind, I try to strive for those ideals by finding the most resolving, transparent, and naturally realistic pieces of gear. If my overall system is bright, I do not try to seek out a "warm piece of gear" to insert in the chain to tame the overall system brightness. I look for the source of that brightness and look to switch it out.

[cmalak]

Cyril, Mike,

I can see both points clearly. I do not think McIntosh would would be a step back.

As much as I like my Dartzeel gear, I also like to switch off to the Dagostino. The TADs are a clear window to what's upstream. I do admit I am probably not like other audiophiles because I do enjoy all my gear and all my music. I enjoy my poorly recorded music as much as my better recorded music. I can not give up music that I like because it does not sound perfect on my system. Sure some combinations were/are better, but at no time could I not stand what I was listening to. I do listen to the music more than I listen to my system, I believe.

Joe...as I tried to explain in the post above, my using your situation to make the point about how I approach system building/matching was wholly inappropriate. As I say, If I had your gear, my ass would be glued to the couch forever I have interpreted your posts in various threads probably too literally. The CR-1s are some of the best speakers in the world period. You being a perfectionist want to get that last 1% under control and that is quite right .

[MrAcoustat]

How tall a ceiling do you need with those? Holy mackerel. Well, I would call those definitely "theft proof".

Hi Mike this DIY Acoustat Spectra 8800 is 41x102x10 inches and weighs 800 pounds it is in a room 22x30x13 feet the ceiling is cathedral high point is 13 feet and low point is 10 all together it's a pretty good room.

[MrAcoustat]

Cyril, Mike,

I can see both points clearly. I do not think McIntosh would would be a step back.

As much as I like my Dartzeel gear, I also like to switch off to the Dagostino. The TADs are a clear window to what's upstream. I do admit I am probably not like other audiophiles because I do enjoy all my gear and all my music. I enjoy my poorly recorded music as much as my better recorded music. I can not give up music that I like because it does not sound perfect on my system. Sure some combinations were/are better, but at no time could I not stand what I was listening to. I do listen to the music more than I listen to my system, I believe.

Joe i do understand your point 100%, in french whe have a word for guys like you it is called MÉLOMANE for those guys it's all about the music FIRST in my case they call us audiophiles because for guys like us it's all about the SOUND #1 to each is own for me if it sounds lousy i can't get into the groove.

[joeinid]

Joe...as I tried to explain in the post above, my using your situation to make the point about how I approach system building/matching was wholly inappropriate. As I say, If I had your gear, my ass would be glued to the couch forever I have interpreted your posts in various threads probably too literally. The CR-1s are some of the best speakers in the world period. You being a perfectionist want to get that last 1% under control and that is quite right .

Hi Cyril,

Sometimes I speak (or write) too quickly. My TADs are downright the absolute best speaker I've ever heard/owned. I know there are no absolutes in this hobby and yes, I get picky. I know there is more than just swapping gear to get the best sound and I am somewhat limited to what I can do room treatment wise. Some of my gear play comes from the fact I've been dreaming about high end gear like this forever and now that I've been able to swap some nice pieces in and out, I go overboard and want to experience it all. I am actually really happy with my setup(s) now and love, love the fact I can turn left or right and swap in another stellar amp/preamp. It's all good.

[joeinid]

Thanks Andre.

Even my "lousy" sounds pretty damn good. I am very lucky.

Joe i do understand your point 100%, in french whe have a word for guys like you it is called MÉLOMANE for those guys it's all about the music FIRST in my case they call us audiophiles because for guys like us it's all about the SOUND #1 to each is own for me if it sounds lousy i can't get into the groove.

[cmalak]

Hi Cyril,

Sometimes I speak (or write) too quickly. My TADs are downright the absolute best speaker I've ever heard/owned. I know there are no absolutes in this hobby and yes, I get picky. I know there is more than just swapping gear to get the best sound and I am somewhat limited to what I can do room treatment wise. Some of my gear play comes from the fact I've been dreaming about high end gear like this forever and now that I've been able to swap some nice pieces in and out, I go overboard and want to experience it all. I am actually really happy with my setup(s) now and love, love the fact I can turn left or right and swap in another stellar amp/preamp. It's all good.

Amen to that Joe!

[still-one]

This combination has crossed my mind many times. I've always wondered how MC601's/MC1.2KW's would sound on my TADs. Maybe I'll get to hear it for myself soon.

Joe
I always enjoyed the sound of my MBL 111F's driven by the 1.2k's and after hearing the Momentum amps in different set-ups at my dealer thought there was no way I would purchase them. After 15 minutes in my system I realized what the 1.2k's couldn't do for the MBL's.

[joeinid]

Joe
I always enjoyed the sound of my MBL 111F's driven by the 1.2k's and after hearing the Momentum amps in different set-ups at my dealer thought there was no way I would purchase them. After 15 minutes in my system I realized what the 1.2k's couldn't do for the MBL's.

Thanks Jim,

Sometimes we have to try a different combos to see what we like.

[still-one]

Thanks Jim,

Sometimes we have to try a different combos to see what we like.

And Joe we know that you are the King of auditioning different brands and gear in your system.

[joeinid]

And Joe we know that you are the King of auditioning different brands and gear in your system.

Ha!

I think I am losing that title to some of our fine members here. Maybe another pair of speakers for fun and another amp or two, then I'm done. Well, there I go again. I just love this stuff. Life is good.

[MrAcoustat]

Ha!

I think I am losing that title to some of our fine members here. Maybe another pair of speakers for fun and another amp or two, then I'm done. Well, there I go again. I just love this stuff. Life is good.

Sorry Joe, the only time an audiophile is done is when he's here - - - - - A24320.jpg - - - - - that's the only time whe are done.

[joeinid]

Sorry Joe, the only time an audiophile is done is when he's here - - - - - A24320.jpg - - - - - that's the only time when we are done.

Ha!

So true. Until then, I'm having a blast.

[wizard]

[JDLaudio]

That is a great demo song. Anybody know the name of song, and title of the album ??

[The Sandman]

That is a great demo song. Anybody know the name of song, and title of the album ??

Funky Oscar
Serge Forté Trio

[JDLaudio]

Funky Oscar
Serge Forté Trio

I appreciate the info Howard.