Isolation on Suspended Circuitry

[UltraFast69]

Does isolation help bring the best out of sound in all cases?

Many brands and designs exists. In particular I am interested in case work from solid billet, with suspended circuitry.

First I am going to experiment with isolation on my phono amp constructed from billet aluminum, it has suspended circuitry, meaning the bottom cover where the feet affix has no circuitry adjoined to it, pop the cover and its a piece of essentially flat stock aluminum.

Does vibration travel around the outside of the billeted aluminum to the attached bottom cover?

Will isolation tighten up the sound?

I will be using Stillpoint Ultra SS (Stainless Steel) and Nordost TC (Titanium Ceramic) Sort Cones

As a general rule, I have used existing songs I considered reference, here I am going to use new music and record from my iPhone, post to YouTube and compare in order not to rely on memory as well as invite others to comment.

In the interim, if anyone has any thoughts towards this, chime in.

[Mike]

Isolation = bad
Dissipation = good

Each electronic device creates energy at 50-60 cycles a second. That energy has to be able to be released (dissipated) or it goes BACK INTO the device. Give it two weeks of isolation and your system will sound like crap.

I have experimented with a variety of products including Stillpoints, Nordost, Ansuz, Critical Mass, Magico, etc.

I have found, hands down, the Critical Mass Center Stage 2 footers to be the absolute best - BY A LONG SHOT. They do take about 2 weeks to “settle” in your system, but after that, holy cow! Amazing. I purchased a boat load for my system at home and put them under EVERYTHING in my home system.

The other products are all excellent as well. The Magico Q-POD’s actually make the most sense to me from a pure dissipation standpoint since the copper dissipates and transforms the energy into heat, but I just haven’t tried them. I have heard them in a customers system and they work beautifully and I KNOW what the MPODS and SPODS and APODS can do under speakers.

I have also tried the Ansuz DARKZ and they worked well, as I imagine the Nordost Sortfut Cones will.

I have found that the biggest differences are under the digital devices and preamp, but you can still realize gains from a Phonostage and amps.

Hope this helps.

[UltraFast69]

Thanks Mike, I have no doubt Critical Mass are sweet, but I am more interested in how isolation works on suspended circuitry, mounted in solid billet.

[Speedskater]

How does the signal get in?
How does the power AC or DC get in?
How does the signal get out?
Are these signals analog or digital?

[UltraFast69]

How does the signal get in?
How does the power AC or DC get in?
How does the signal get out?
Are these signals analog or digital?

Speedskater - ?

I am simply seeing how or if isolation makes a difference on suspended circuitry encased in solid billet. Maybe no one knows, and believe what they are told, just playing since I am at a point of now qualifying a few things to see if they had the impact I originally thought.

[Speedskater]

There is mechanical isolation and then there is electrical isolation.
Electrical isolation is real tricky.
Mechanical isolation of solid-state circuits doesn't get you anything.

[UltraFast69]

There is mechanical isolation and then there is electrical isolation.
Electrical isolation is real tricky.
Mechanical isolation of solid-state circuits doesn't get you anything.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear in the subject line.

I am talking specifically mechanical isolation.

My comparison will begin with the Stillpoints Ultra SS and Nordost Sort Cones under the Phono Pre Amp.




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[Speedskater]

Just how extremely loud do you play your records?
Can vibrations and turntables be a problem? Yes.
But not for solid-state components.

* * * * * * * *
Components with moving parts like CD/DVD players, hard drives, fans are a different story.

[mep]

Does isolation help bring the best out of sound in all cases?

Many brands and designs exists. In particular I am interested in case work from solid billet, with suspended circuitry.

First I am going to experiment with isolation on my phono amp constructed from billet aluminum, it has suspended circuitry, meaning the bottom cover where the feet affix has no circuitry adjoined to it, pop the cover and its a piece of essentially flat stock aluminum.

Does vibration travel around the outside of the billeted aluminum to the attached bottom cover?

Will isolation tighten up the sound?

I will be using Stillpoint Ultra SS (Stainless Steel) and Nordost TC (Titanium Ceramic) Sort Cones

As a general rule, I have used existing songs I considered reference, here I am going to use new music and record from my iPhone, post to YouTube and compare in order not to rely on memory as well as invite others to comment.

In the interim, if anyone has any thoughts towards this, chime in.

So what is it that you are hearing in your system that you don’t like? Or, are you trying to figure out which solution you will use in a search for a problem?

[UltraFast69]

So what is it that you are hearing in your system that you don’t like? Or, are you trying to figure out which solution you will use in a search for a problem?

Short answer, nothing.

I’m qualifying the impact of expensive footers in my application seeing if they really add anything when used with decent platforms.

I’m loaded up with various lines from Stillpoints and Nordost. These are under all power distribution, servers and network gear with purpose.

My system right now is over the top good, and have put a lot of effort to get it this way, now anyone with common sense would leave well enough alone but, this for me is a hobby as much as it is an enjoyment of music, I love both equally.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[mep]

Short answer, nothing.

I’m qualifying the impact of expensive footers in my application seeing if they really add anything when used with decent platforms.

I’m loaded up with various lines from Stillpoints and Nordost. These are under all power distribution, servers and network gear with purpose.

My system right now is over the top good, and have put a lot of effort to get it this way, now anyone with common sense would leave well enough alone but, this for me is a hobby as much as it is an enjoyment of music, I love both equally.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks. You answered my question.

[W9TR]

Ed - I eagerly await your results.
Everything electronic is susceptible to mechanical vibration. How it manifests itself in the final sound is variable and subject to endless debate. Temperature compensated crystal oscillators (TCXO's) found in pretty much every digital component are especially subject to degradation via vibration. Even passive cables transform mechanical energy into electrical signals. Turn up the gain on a terminated Mic cable and physically tap it - you can hear it if the rest of your gear is quiet.

[UltraFast69]

Here are three links I did, note I was not focusing on quality of video using the iPhone 10, only the sound.

Let's see what everyone comes up with

https://youtu.be/Sk0XmTRDvmY

https://youtu.be/K7CV98lzYGU

https://youtu.be/3NlNNiOWBug

[Darrel]

Well Ed, I listened to all three and gave you youtubers a thumbs up and subscribed. But, seriously, I couldn't hear much of a difference one from another. But, audio on youtube isn't a really good evaluation. Maybe others heard more of a difference than me.

[Spock]

Here are three links I did
Let's see what everyone comes up with

Not an easy task.
But i got a feeling on the first one with stillpoints.


Bass with a little better definition? It seems more obvious the impact of the bow on the strings.
Better piano tone?




By the way, great sound!

[Mike Lavigne]

Does isolation help bring the best out of sound in all cases?

Many brands and designs exists. In particular I am interested in case work from solid billet, with suspended circuitry.

First I am going to experiment with isolation on my phono amp constructed from billet aluminum, it has suspended circuitry, meaning the bottom cover where the feet affix has no circuitry adjoined to it, pop the cover and its a piece of essentially flat stock aluminum.

Does vibration travel around the outside of the billeted aluminum to the attached bottom cover?

Will isolation tighten up the sound?

yes,.......and yes. but it's not that simple.

i have darTZeel mono block amplifiers that have build quality rivaling a swiss watch. and their power supplies are suspended inside the case work. there are transport screws to hold the circuits firmly that must be removed once set in place so the suspension can work. arguably the best sounding solid state amplification out there at any price. amazing performance. 18 months ago i tried -2- Taiko Tana active systems under these amps. since they have such a solid construction and are already using designed-in suspended circuitry you might expect that there is not much farther to go.

https://taikoaudio.com/products/taiko-audio-tana/

but there is a noticeable improvement in musical focus and sound-stage life and removal of a level of distortion with these active Tana systems in place. especially piano and violin precision takes on another degree of realism. i can turn them on and off with one push of a button and it's easy to hear the effect as the sound stage relatively collapses.

i have three more of these active Taiko Tana systems used in my signal path. they are awesome but can't work everywhere. some turntables project resonance noise of their own which these Tana systems read as resonance and so a feedback loop gets set up and will eventually burn out the Tana. so they can only be used where the gear does not have self resonance.

i have (but not currently) used the active Tana system under my MSB dac box which is made from solid billet; and it had the same positive musical effect.

the Tana systems are crazy expensive, and i don't recommend them to many. if you have done everything you can to move the needle, and you are wanting to find another level; the Tana is that other level.

besides the active Tana systems i also use the passive Taiko Daiza anti-resonance platforms under the rest of my signal path; in fact i use -2- Daiza's stacked one on top of another.

https://taikoaudio.com/product/daiza/

the Daiza shelf is made of Panzerholtz, and then uses foam and copper spacers and panzerholtz footers to all act as layers of different impedance breaks to attenuate resonance in a broad frequency range. it's very neutral and retains energy and does not over-damp. all three of my MSB Select II boxes that are all solid billet sit on a double layer of these shelves and the performance advantage is considerable. and these shelves are reasonable in price (similar to a single Center Stage footer).

pictures in the Audiogon system picture link in my signature below.

why does all this stuff work?

because your gear sings along with the music. and it combines that 'noise' with the natural ground and outside noise already coming through your rack and floor and veils the music, smears detail, and blunts dynamics. robs the music of life, vividness and presence. the emotional pull of the music and flow is reduced. we are less attracted to listening. it does not matter how well constructed your gear is or whether your gear has it's own suspension. and the better and more detailed and accurate our systems become, the more we will be able to hear the benefit of resonance isolation.

sometimes gear and our ears like the effect of resonance. if your system is edgy or harsh, a colored upper bass, lower mid range might be preferred. no doubt reducing resonance will clear up that lower mids, upper bass warmth. one size does not fit all. but.......if you are chasing the ultimate in musical truth then you want to get the system out of the way of the music. coloration is just a band aid robbing you of information. if your system can't handle the clarity of the truth; then find the problem and fix it. don't color over it. maybe/probably it's a room tuning thing. if you are interested in resonance control, the room tuning is a similar area of opportunity. good luck with that.

any passive device is system dependent; it's a matter of context. until you hear it in your system you cannot 100% predict the outcome.

one last note; your floor and rack are limits to what approach will work with resonance/isolation control approaches. if you have a suspended wood floor, or a rack that is not solid; then you have some challenges to overcome those things before you try and choose a footer or platform. anything you use will be unpredictably combined with that floor or rack 'action'. just a caution.....first things first.

you will never know what you are missing until you take away the ambient, floor born and feedback resonance.

[UltraFast69]

Well Ed, I listened to all three and gave you youtubers a thumbs up and subscribed. But, seriously, I couldn't hear much of a difference one from another. But, audio on youtube isn't a really good evaluation. Maybe others heard more of a difference than me.

Darrel, your not off, it’s so close, it’s very easy to not hear.




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[UltraFast69]

Not an easy task.
But i got a feeling on the first one with stillpoints.


Bass with a little better definition? It seems more obvious the impact of the bow on the strings.
Better piano tone?




By the way, great sound!

Spock, it’s tricky, and I the jury is still out for me. We all hear differently and there is no right or wrong answer because of this.

Thanks for the compliment, the Kuzma table and cartridge are true performers IMO.


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[UltraFast69]

yes,.......and yes. but it's not that simple.

i have darTZeel mono block amplifiers that have build quality rivaling a swiss watch. and their power supplies are suspended inside the case work. there are transport screws to hold the circuits firmly that must be removed once set in place so the suspension can work. arguably the best sounding solid state amplification out there at any price. amazing performance. 18 months ago i tried -2- Taiko Tana active systems under these amps. since they have such a solid construction and are already using designed-in suspended circuitry you might expect that there is not much farther to go.

https://taikoaudio.com/products/taiko-audio-tana/

but there is a noticeable improvement in musical focus and sound-stage life and removal of a level of distortion with these active Tana systems in place. especially piano and violin precision takes on another degree of realism. i can turn them on and off with one push of a button and it's easy to hear the effect as the sound stage relatively collapses.

i have three more of these active Taiko Tana systems used in my signal path. they are awesome but can't work everywhere. some turntables project resonance noise of their own which these Tana systems read as resonance and so a feedback loop gets set up and will eventually burn out the Tana. so they can only be used where the gear does not have self resonance.

i have (but not currently) used the active Tana system under my MSB dac box which is made from solid billet; and it had the same positive musical effect.

the Tana systems are crazy expensive, and i don't recommend them to many. if you have done everything you can to move the needle, and you are wanting to find another level; the Tana is that other level.

besides the active Tana systems i also use the passive Taiko Daiza anti-resonance platforms under the rest of my signal path; in fact i use -2- Daiza's stacked one on top of another.

https://taikoaudio.com/product/daiza/

the Daiza shelf is made of Panzerholtz, and then uses foam and copper spacers and panzerholtz footers to all act as layers of different impedance breaks to attenuate resonance in a broad frequency range. it's very neutral and retains energy and does not over-damp. all three of my MSB Select II boxes that are all solid billet sit on a double layer of these shelves and the performance advantage is considerable. and these shelves are reasonable in price (similar to a single Center Stage footer).

pictures in the Audiogon system picture link in my signature below.

why does all this stuff work?

because your gear sings along with the music. and it combines that 'noise' with the natural ground and outside noise already coming through your rack and floor and veils the music, smears detail, and blunts dynamics. robs the music of life, vividness and presence. the emotional pull of the music and flow is reduced. we are less attracted to listening. it does not matter how well constructed your gear is or whether your gear has it's own suspension. and the better and more detailed and accurate our systems become, the more we will be able to hear the benefit of resonance isolation.

sometimes gear and our ears like the effect of resonance. if your system is edgy or harsh, a colored upper bass, lower mid range might be preferred. no doubt reducing resonance will clear up that lower mids, upper bass warmth. one size does not fit all. but.......if you are chasing the ultimate in musical truth then you want to get the system out of the way of the music. coloration is just a band aid robbing you of information. if your system can't handle the clarity of the truth; then find the problem and fix it. don't color over it. maybe/probably it's a room tuning thing. if you are interested in resonance control, the room tuning is a similar area of opportunity. good luck with that.

any passive device is system dependent; it's a matter of context. until you hear it in your system you cannot 100% predict the outcome.

one last note; your floor and rack are limits to what approach will work with resonance/isolation control approaches. if you have a suspended wood floor, or a rack that is not solid; then you have some challenges to overcome those things before you try and choose a footer or platform. anything you use will be unpredictably combined with that floor or rack 'action'. just a caution.....first things first.

you will never know what you are missing until you take away the ambient, floor born and feedback resonance.

Mike, I’ll have to do some reading on how DarTZeel suspends their circuitry. No doubt they build an amazing product!

In keeping what I’m after is if mechanical isolation contributes any benefit to components like or similar to what I’m running; suspended circuitry encased in CNC’d billet resting on top of HRS’s top of the line platforms a few years ago.

Darrel says all are similar, Spock thinks he heard a difference and pointed at Stillponts being better.

If there is no real difference, then maybe this test helps someone put their isolation money elsewhere like digital as Suncoast Mike indicates, and here IMO is a no brainer and I may take this on but still curious to what others say, I reached my decision but will share after a bit, but this is only to my benefit, how everyone else hears is up to them.



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[Spock]

why does all this stuff work?

because your gear sings along with the music. and it combines that 'noise' with the natural ground and outside noise already coming through your rack and floor and veils the music, smears detail, and blunts dynamics. robs the music of life, vividness and presence. the emotional pull of the music and flow is reduced. we are less attracted to listening. it does not matter how well constructed your gear is or whether your gear has it's own suspension. and the better and more detailed and accurate our systems become, the more we will be able to hear the benefit of resonance isolation.

sometimes gear and our ears like the effect of resonance. if your system is edgy or harsh, a colored upper bass, lower mid range might be preferred. no doubt reducing resonance will clear up that lower mids, upper bass warmth. one size does not fit all. but.......if you are chasing the ultimate in musical truth then you want to get the system out of the way of the music. coloration is just a band aid robbing you of information. if your system can't handle the clarity of the truth; then find the problem and fix it. don't color over it. maybe/probably it's a room tuning thing. if you are interested in resonance control, the room tuning is a similar area of opportunity. good luck with that.

any passive device is system dependent; it's a matter of context. until you hear it in your system you cannot 100% predict the outcome.

one last note; your floor and rack are limits to what approach will work with resonance/isolation control approaches. if you have a suspended wood floor, or a rack that is not solid; then you have some challenges to overcome those things before you try and choose a footer or platform. anything you use will be unpredictably combined with that floor or rack 'action'. just a caution.....first things first.

you will never know what you are missing until you take away the ambient, floor born and feedback resonance.

Well!!
There´s nothing more to say!
Absolutely right.

[Kingrex]

I have gone the poor man route with footers. Ultrafast bought his $800 or so each stillpoint isolating feet to my house. We put them under my preamp and it was immediate the improvement. I sent him home with his bag of goodies. I don't play in that league. I did not let him leave with his Addpower symphony and Addpower electraclear. Best $450 I spent.

What I did do was play with some 1.5" square by 1/2" thick pieces of corian I cut a while back. I also drilled a dimple in the middle of them. I put a Druzy bead on top of them, or I put a cut piece of 1.5" thick fiberglass matt insulation under them. My preamp and phono preamp have a very definite improvement in clarity with the bead on top version. The dac and server get smeared with the bead, but have a definite uptick in clarity with the insulation under it. I swapped both styles around all pieces. I am still trying to determine what my amps like. Right now the amps are on 2.5" thick slabs of acrylic. Whatever feet I have tried don't seem to make much impact.

[Kingrex]

FWIW. I did not know I had issues with clarity, smearing of signal etc. It was Ultrafast sitting with me and experimenting with different devices under different pieces that showed me the deficiencies in certain places. Its like the old addage, you don't know its there till its gone. I see nothing wrong with fiddling such as Ultrafast does. It's a big piece of how we learn. It helps you understand your system better and how to get it more precisely tuned.