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March 31, 2020, 10:59 AM #1
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When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Speakers use parts that are continually vibrating. Older speakers, in particular, are likely to have cones made with cardboard and rubber both of which will deteriorate with time (even if slowly). Even speakers without cones are not inmune (think of the delamination problems with many older Magnepan speakers).
Also speaker-building technology has changed. Think of Mágico and their internal metal framing or the different shapes of today’s speakers (not just the same old boxes of yesteryears).
So what parameters you look at/consider when you decide to purchase an older speaker? Is there a point where you say, for example, ‘I will not consider purchasing any speakers older than X years?’ Or maybe this is analogous to buying a used car: ‘I always wanted a 911 and since I can’t afford a new one, I will buy this 20 year old 996 dirt cheap’.
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March 31, 2020, 02:52 PM #2
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Hard to answer. Some speakers hold up better than others. I recently bought then flipped a pair of Rectalinear Lowboy 3s from the original owner purchased new in 1971. All drivers and surrounds were intact and they sounded big and wonderful.
I just found my receipt from when I bought my Dynaudio speakers, they are now 19 years old and look and sound as they did out of the box.
If you are looking at Vintage stuff, if they sound good to you and all drivers are intact, xovers could use a recap but they will probably never sound as they were intended new unless you have exact replacements.-----------------
Brian
Main System - Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables
Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables
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March 31, 2020, 03:26 PM #3
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
I look at it from the opposite perspective. How long will a new speaker remain at optimum performance. I am guessing 10 years, so in 8 more years I will need to replace my Magico S5 MK 2. Assuming I am still alive and not deaf at 78.
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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March 31, 2020, 03:43 PM #4
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
I sure hope you get more than 10 years from a pair of $40K speakers.
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Brian
Main System - Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables
Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables
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March 31, 2020, 03:57 PM #5
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Cheers ! …. Dave
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March 31, 2020, 04:18 PM #6
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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March 31, 2020, 04:26 PM #7
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
What about "break-in"; isn't the opposite occurring then? I sort of dislike using the often used and abused and typically inappropriate automotive analogy, but looking at performance parameters of well maintained sports cars suggests that while some metrics might deteriorate (over 150k to 200k miles) very slightly, others improve. I don't think the mechanical wear of a speaker approaches that of a hard driven automobile; I could certainly be wrong, though.
Rob
__________________________
Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
Adona rack, Stillpoints, IsoPods, ASC, GIK Acoustics accessories
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March 31, 2020, 04:34 PM #8
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March 31, 2020, 04:49 PM #9
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
I recently touched base with an old friend who purchased my B&W 801 Matrix series 2 from me in 1994 and they weren’t new then. He still loves them to this day and swears they sound the same. Without a new pair side by side with an older quality pair I doubt you’ll notice them degrading over time and even then the amount will be minimal assuming speakers were well cared for. Now if they sit idle for years then that’s another story.
GeorgeWilson Audio Alexx|Pair of Rel No25’s
VAC Statement Preamplifier
VAC Statement 452 Monoblocks
Sonorus ATR10 MkII
Esoteric D-02X|Esoteric P-02X|Aurender W20SE
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Transparent Reference Power
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March 31, 2020, 04:57 PM #10
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Yes, that is a good point. I suspect that being a mechanical device it initially loosens up (break-in). After that it continues to break-in, and then slowly deteriorates over time and use. At least that’s my hypothesis and I am sticking with it. I just hope I am still alive and not deaf after 10 years.
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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March 31, 2020, 05:44 PM #11
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
My Kef R105/3's were 25 when I sold them and other than replacing the foam woofer surrounds with rubber when they were 5 they still measured like new. I just wanted a change.
KEF Blade, Mc-611's, C49 rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner. Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller VA Beethoven's, Hegel h360.
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March 31, 2020, 05:53 PM #12
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Typically, handling and fuel economy. There are a variety of proposed theoretical reasons for this, but I don't know that any have been specifically tested or proven. What's more remarkable, though, is that almost all performance metrics change very little, assuming that worn out parts are replaced (as we have discussed also for speakers)
Rob
__________________________
Tascam BR-20; Technics 1506 with tape path upgrades, FM head, DeHavilland 222 tape head pre; Modwright Oppo 205 full tube mod w/LPS; Euphony Summus server, EtherRegen, HDPLEX LPS; MSB Discrete DAC (dual PS, ISLPro, balanced out); Pass Labs XP-12, XA60.8 (pair); Daedalus Audio Apollo 11’s, VMPS Larger Sub; Daedalus/Wywires, Acoustic Zen, Sablon Audio, Wireworld, Shunyata Research cables; Core Power Equi=Power;
Adona rack, Stillpoints, IsoPods, ASC, GIK Acoustics accessories
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March 31, 2020, 06:47 PM #13
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Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Thanks! In my view the only thing that may get better in a vehicle as it ages is its value. But that only applies to those few select cars that become classics. And it takes a long time in most cases (unless we are talking about extremely limited edition vehicles). And almost all of those vehicles are garage queens, sadly.
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March 31, 2020, 11:19 PM #14
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
I wouldn't touch a 996 with your 10 ft pole. I owned one back in the day when it was under factory warranty. from that era the only cars to consider were those models that had engines with split crankcases (GT2, GT3 and turbo). If you want a 'deal' on a water pumper, id set my sights on a 997.
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April 1, 2020, 07:11 AM #15
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
I really don't think we can compare the wear and tear on a car to the use of a speaker. Not even the same ballpark.
Only if speakers are stored in a wet or hot or all sunlight should they have any serious issues in 10 years that one could hear and point out.-----------------
Brian
Main System - Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables
Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables
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April 1, 2020, 08:11 AM #16
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
When I got back into audio, a local guy from Speaker Lab back in the day re-coned a pair of Snells I purchased new in the early 90’s from a dealer in Austin Texas during a short stint there (girl), he played them at his house running a pair of Krell Monos and other vintage gear he had and they sounded real good.
Last year I brought them into the music room and set them up and they no way sounded like I heard them at his repair shop.
My modern amp and cabling may of been the reason. I wasn’t comparing these to my current speakers just trying to hear what I heard at the shop to no avail.
So perhaps it’s the art of blending vintage with vintage and like auto use the 20 year timeline to define as classic?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProSource Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
Speakers: Wilson Alexias
Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS
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April 1, 2020, 09:19 AM #17
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April 1, 2020, 10:52 AM #18
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
I don't know if asking "When is an older speaker just too old?" is the right question to ask. There are speakers that were built last week that don't sound worth a damn and there will be some built tomorrow that will be in the same boat. Rather than focusing on age, focus on whether some older speakers truly sounded great and you always wanted to own a pair of them. There is a reason why some speakers and other stereo gear become classics over time and turn into appreciating assets instead of depreciating assets. My JBL 4345s are a case in point.
The JBL 4345s are around 40 years old. They were designed by Greg Timbers and were designed to be used in recording studios. They are big floor standing speakers that take up a chunk of real estate, They are also rare and in demand. Why are they in demand? The sound of course. Kenrick in Japan used to refurbish real JBL 4345s and sell them to their customers, but the demand far outstripped their supply. Kenrick resorted to manufacturing clones to sell to their clients who were willing to pay big money even though they were purchasing clones which will never have the value of the original JBL 4345s. Last I knew, a pair of clones from Kenrick is over $20,000 plus shipping from Japan. Try and find a pair of real JBL 4345s for sale that haven't been molested by previous owners. We all know audiophiles that are far smarter than the engineers that designed the equipment they bought and just can't help themselves from making "improvements." Finding an unmolested pair of JBL 4345s in great condition is a quest.
In summary, the question isn't the age of the speakers, the question is how good did they sound originally and does it make sense for you to own them now?Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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April 1, 2020, 11:42 AM #19
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April 1, 2020, 12:03 PM #20
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
Reviewer for Positive Feedback
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April 1, 2020, 12:08 PM #21
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Older pro series JBL's were designed from the onset as capital equipment. We now know they were overbuilt and remain serviceable and in spec for decades past their useful life. Horn speakers in general experience very little wear and tear from a mechanical standpoint vis a vis direct radiators. One only has to observe the massive cone displacement (underhung VC) when playing DR speakers at higher volumes. How many hours will they endure before the inevitable happens, will the mfr still have replacement drivers for your specific model speakers a decade or two in the future?
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April 1, 2020, 03:57 PM #22
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April 1, 2020, 05:27 PM #23
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
I may have let my wife believe (for awhile) that speakers were like car tires and needed replacing every couple years.
KEF Blade, Mc-611's, C49 rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner. Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller VA Beethoven's, Hegel h360.
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April 1, 2020, 05:59 PM #24
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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April 1, 2020, 06:45 PM #25
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April 1, 2020, 08:04 PM #26
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April 2, 2020, 08:35 AM #27
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Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Do we do this like 'dog lives'? Multiply by 7?
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April 2, 2020, 11:36 AM #28
Re: When Is an Older Speaker Just Too Old?
Heck all my equipment except my Lumin is old. LOL
2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
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The original BD "Dunkirk" has a known defect where the audio cuts out on loud battle scenes. It's been corrected on the 4k version. I've had maybe 1% defective discs out of about 500 or so,...
Has anybody here received NEW...