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  1. #1
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    Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    If most speakers and turntables are made with MDF would it make sense to say that equipment rack/stands/shelves should be made with MDF as well?
    Paul

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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    MDF synergy...............oh dear God help us all.

    MDF is cheap and dimensionally stable, other than that I don't think it has any magical properties or should I say truly desirable qualities.

    I do not go out of my way to avoid it however.

    I have done comparable listening tests to various materials under my turntable, preamp and loudspeakers.

    In general materials sound like what they look and feel like.

    Wood is woody.

    Glass is clear but with some glare, so on and so forth.

    Composite materials in general suck the life out, this includes MDF, Corian and composite grinding wheels but sometimes you want just a little excess energy sucked out so use in careful measure.

    If you think of your sound system as a musical instrument with sympathetic resonances, then material selection is paramount. Brass is by far my favorite material to tune my system with.


    How 7 Different Woods Affect Your Acoustic Sound
    (from Fender dot com)
    You see it all the time when shopping for an acoustic guitar: Sitka spruce top, mahogany back and sides, rosewood bridge, this wood, that wood, another wood. All very impressive, but what does it mean? Most of us aren’t wood experts, so what exactly do different woods have to do with the sound of an acoustic guitar?


    A great deal, actually. The woods used to build guitars—acoustic guitars in particular—are called tonewoods, and they have enormous effects on the sound and price of an instrument. Various woods have distinct sound qualities, especially when used for the top of an acoustic guitar, which is the most important wooden tonal element of the instrument.


    You’re not going to be tested, but here are the ABCs of tonewoods — various woods and the sound qualities they’re noted for:

  3. #3
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Thanks kach22i....I wonder why the mega buck speakers and turntables would use MDF? It appears there are much better alternatives.
    Paul

    Speakers: Von Schweikert VR-5 Anniversary MK II Front L/R, LCR-35 Center, VR-1 Rear L/R Sub: JL Audio F113
    Amps: PS Audio BHK Signature 300 Mono, McIntosh MC207 Pre-Amp PS Audio BHK Signature and Gold Note PH-10 Phono Stage/PSU-10 Power Supply
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Could you give examples of “mega buck speakers” that use MDF. I need to know who to avoid.
    Bud

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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by Audiophilehi View Post
    Thanks kach22i....I wonder why the mega buck speakers and turntables would use MDF? It appears there are much better alternatives.
    I am not sure what you define as "mega buck".

    A local store here actually carries "mega buck", one piece items +$20,000 and you see a lot of carbon fiber, cast and extruded aluminum, Hi-Tech plastics, composites, lamination of different materials, and exotic hardwoods.

    Again if you think $7,000 MDF loudspeaker is mega buck, then what adjective applies to $70,000 speakers?

  6. #6
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Could you give examples of “mega buck speakers” that use MDF. I need to know who to avoid.
    I cant's at the moment. Maybe I shouldn't have included speakers as I'm not sure of the present day materials. I do know in the past MDF was used. However I have a VPI-HRX turntable that is 3 layers of MDF/aluminum/MDF at I believe the MSRP is $15,000.
    Paul

    Speakers: Von Schweikert VR-5 Anniversary MK II Front L/R, LCR-35 Center, VR-1 Rear L/R Sub: JL Audio F113
    Amps: PS Audio BHK Signature 300 Mono, McIntosh MC207 Pre-Amp PS Audio BHK Signature and Gold Note PH-10 Phono Stage/PSU-10 Power Supply
    Turntable: VPI HR-X 12.7 TONEARM (2) and SDS, Stillpoints LPI
    Tape Deck Otari 5050B II2
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  7. #7
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Could you give examples of “mega buck speakers” that use MDF. I need to know who to avoid.
    Your MAGICO's qualify as MDF free I believe, so you are safe, lots of aluminum.


    MAGICO
    Enclosures


    No singular material can satisfy all of the properties desirable in a loudspeaker enclosure.


    As stiffness increases, moving from MDF to phenolic resin to aluminum, cabinet vibrations are drastically reduced, although a sharpened Q of the resonance results in an audible ring.


    By damping the high Q resonance via elaborate constrained layer damping we have eliminated all energy storage and audible resonance from our enclosure.

  8. #8
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by Audiophilehi View Post
    I cant's at the moment. Maybe I shouldn't have included speakers as I'm not sure of the present day materials. I do know in the past MDF was used. However I have a VPI-HRX turntable that is 3 layers of MDF/aluminum/MDF at I believe the MSRP is $15,000.
    VPI likes to call their plinth a chassis, and in that model it looks to be (Acrylic-Aluminum-Acrylic) composite layer.

    Some of VPI's lower cost models are MDF I believe, it has excellent dampening qualities, too much in some cases and can sound rather dead (a common criticism of VPI).

    AVID has a line of turntables all using the same metal cast chassis/plinth, not sure if its aluminum, magnesium or gray metal used in brake rotors. In any case they differ in price mostly in the platter. The bottom of the line is a MDF platter that has gotten some good reviews. Anyway, as you step up in price you go to acrylic platters, aluminum, aluminum with copper and brass and all sorts of laminations to control resonances.

    MDF is a one material solution that leans to the dead side but can be sandwiched.

  9. #9
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by kach22i View Post
    VPI likes to call their plinth a chassis, and in that model it looks to be (Acrylic-Aluminum-Acrylic) composite layer.

    Some of VPI's lower cost models are MDF I believe, it has excellent dampening qualities, too much in some cases and can sound rather dead (a common criticism of VPI).

    AVID has a line of turntables all using the same metal cast chassis/plinth, not sure if its aluminum, magnesium or gray metal used in brake rotors. In any case they differ in price mostly in the platter. The bottom of the line is a MDF platter that has gotten some good reviews. Anyway, as you step up in price you go to acrylic platters, aluminum, aluminum with copper and brass and all sorts of laminations to control resonances.

    MDF is a one material solution that leans to the dead side but can be sandwiched.
    Thanks kach22i for the detailed explanation. It appears I should have done a bit more research before my post.
    Paul

    Speakers: Von Schweikert VR-5 Anniversary MK II Front L/R, LCR-35 Center, VR-1 Rear L/R Sub: JL Audio F113
    Amps: PS Audio BHK Signature 300 Mono, McIntosh MC207 Pre-Amp PS Audio BHK Signature and Gold Note PH-10 Phono Stage/PSU-10 Power Supply
    Turntable: VPI HR-X 12.7 TONEARM (2) and SDS, Stillpoints LPI
    Tape Deck Otari 5050B II2
    Music Server: Aurender N100H
    Cartridges: Ortofon Cadenza Black, Lyra Helikon Mono Digital Source: Oppo UDP-205 DAC: Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE
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  10. #10
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by Audiophilehi View Post
    Thanks kach22i for the detailed explanation. It appears I should have done a bit more research before my post.
    People that already know everything can be boring, I found my way here to teach and learn.

    That is hard to do when everyone is a real and actual expert.

    I only pretend to be.

    EDIT:


    MDF can be part of a speaker system or TT, I do not want to imply otherwise - just use with caution and be aware of it's properties, both good (if utilized) and bad (if ignored).

    Examples:

    https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109265.0
    Speaker Design: The VR5 Anniversary Mark 2’s use a four-layer triple chambered hybrid transmission line cabinet. The innermost layer is ½ inch marble, then a special acoustic damping adhesive layer bonded to thick high-density MDF and beautifully finished with an African Hazelwood veneer.
    Von Schweikert Audio VR5 Anniversary MK2 ORIGINAL NOT UPGRADED MINT [Expired]
    https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-von-schweikert-audio-vr5-anniversary-mk2-original-not-upgraded-mint-2015-12-18-speakers-l4l-8a3
    Cabinet and Bracing: A two-inch thick front baffle provides exceptional vibration control and image solidity, while MDF interlocking braces provide rigidity and freedom from boxy colorations.



  11. #11
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by kach22i View Post
    MDF synergy...............oh dear God help us all.

    MDF is cheap and dimensionally stable, other than that I don't think it has any magical properties or should I say truly desirable qualities.

    I do not go out of my way to avoid it however.

    I have done comparable listening tests to various materials under my turntable, preamp and loudspeakers.

    In general materials sound like what they look and feel like.

    Wood is woody.

    Glass is clear but with some glare, so on and so forth.

    Composite materials in general suck the life out, this includes MDF, Corian and composite grinding wheels but sometimes you want just a little excess energy sucked out so use in careful measure.

    If you think of your sound system as a musical instrument with sympathetic resonances, then material selection is paramount. Brass is by far my favorite material to tune my system with.


    How 7 Different Woods Affect Your Acoustic Sound
    (from Fender dot com)
    If materials sound the way they look , Does your observation change when you cant visually see what material is being used ...

  12. #12
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by Audiophilehi View Post
    Thanks kach22i....I wonder why the mega buck speakers and turntables would use MDF? It appears there are much better alternatives.

    Like ...?

  13. #13
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Could you give examples of “mega buck speakers” that use MDF. I need to know who to avoid.

    Looks like you already have ...

  14. #14
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    If materials sound the way they look , Does your observation change when you cant visually see what material is being used ...
    I was surprised the other day when a very hi-end turntable I've heard was discovered to have a top coat of glass or glass composite as a final top layer of a platter over Dural aluminum.

    Certainly there are layered affects I have not experimented with, and certain materials I just did not consider.

    For instance 40 mm braced Hpl.


    One of the more interesting platters I've read about is made from an unexpected material.

    From the comments section:
    https://www.analogplanet.com/content...-machine-magic


    Cast iron base Submitted by schiele on Sun, 2012-07-01 14:48


    No doubt one of the reasons the Anvil performs so well for its price is the designer's selection of inexpensive gray iron for the base. Gray iron is actually a composite of iron and graphite flakes. The impedance mismatch between these two materials dissipates vibration very effectively. Gray iron's damping capacity is literally hundreds of times better than steel or aluminum. Traditionally the material of choice for exhaust manifolds and brake rotors because of its ability to suppress NVH ( noise vibration and harshness) it has lost market share in recent years due to its weight. It is still the best material for precision machine tool bases. It is puzzling that no company before Anvil has been knowledgeable enough to recognize the suitability of this material for turntables.
    As you can see in the link below Gray Iron is far superior to aluminum in dampening.

    http://www.atlasfdry.com/grayiron-damping.htm
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    If anyone has a chart they find comparing commonly used materials in the making of turntables and loudspeakers regarding Mechanical Properties - Damping Capacity, please post it.

    I would like to see how some plastics (acrylic + carbon fiber) and MDF stand up to the metals in the chart I've already posted.

    I'm finding stuff, but not in the same units of measure.

    I would also like to see where Brass/Bronze and Stainless Steel rank, and also glass/tempered + glass/laminated.


    EDIT:

    Found this PDF on Silicon Bronze Alloys for Music Applications.
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAK

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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    I found a article by Mike VansEvers many moons back on tone and tuning. Just did a search and came up with a link to the first part of it

    https://positive-feedback.com/pfback...evers.7n5.html
    Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B. View Post
    I found a article by Mike VansEvers many moons back on tone and tuning. Just did a search and came up with a link to the first part of it

    https://positive-feedback.com/pfback...evers.7n5.html
    I have not heard his name in many years. I just let a buddy of mine use my VanEvers Model 85 line conditioner and power cable. Mike did some interesting things. I wonder if he is still around?
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  18. #18
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B. View Post
    I found a article by Mike VansEvers many moons back on tone and tuning. Just did a search and came up with a link to the first part of it

    https://positive-feedback.com/pfback...evers.7n5.html
    I read about half of this yesterday (thank you for finding and posting it Mike B), and it goes way beyond my simple observations 10 years ago.

    I like the comparison to room modes and the across the band frequency distribution verses the bundling or bunching up of frequencies that can have some unpleasant consequences.

    I believe some manufactures are more aware of these resonance phenomena than others.

    For instance my McIntosh CD player seemed immune to my experiments, while other equipment was very sensitive.

    Perhaps a more obvious example would be the Brinkmann Balance turntable (not on my rack sadly) with custom platform to sit on.

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/...nce-turntable2
    Because the Balance doesn't have a suspension, Blair suggests using a Harmonic Resolution Systems HRS M3 isolation base ($2200), which is custom-designed for the Balance and features a split granite platform to isolate the motor from the platter/bearing assembly.
    I suppose outboard power supplies on just about anything can fall into the consideration of a resonance category.

    Perhaps this topic is more mainstream than I initially assumed.







  19. #19
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Good Audio is about the careful managing of resonances and not the total elimination of them. To do so will lead to what most describe as an unnatural HiFi sound, IMO ..



    Regards

  20. #20
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Anyone interested in reading PART-2 of the Mike VansEvers article click below (page 3) and scroll 2/3rds of the way down to:

    The Stereo Times
    http://www.stereotimes.com/comm0600.shtml
    Tone Balancing the Bass Response of the System


    Overview


    "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts" is a phrase that can be used to describe an in-tune audio system's bass response.

    It is important to note that our focus is the bass response of the system, rather than the bass of any one component. This is called a "systems approach". Even though we will be working with only one component at a time, we are interested only in how well its bass integrates with the bass of the SYSTEM. Individual components by themselves cannot make sound, much less music...................
    If you want to read the article from the beginning, go to page one and read all four pages.

    I found the link via Audio Asylum FYI.

    And yes this part of the article quickly mentions MDF as being able to tame highs that are brash or annoying.

  21. #21

    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Could you give examples of “mega buck speakers” that use MDF. I need to know who to avoid.
    Why? Do you know it to be a poor choice of materials- results in lower Q sound?

  22. #22
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    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    I have not heard anything from or about Mike for a long time. Last I remember was a article where he tuned a reviewers room with a sculpture like structure made from various types of wood.
    Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
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  23. #23

    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike B. View Post
    I have not heard anything from or about Mike for a long time. Last I remember was a article where he tuned a reviewers room with a sculpture like structure made from various types of wood.
    I used to spend many hours with Mike at his shop listening to different wood blocks and stuff . He modified a bunch of gear for me , the first one was an Aragon 4004 Mk2 . After Mike modified it , the results were stunning . It was smooth , detailed and the glare it had was gone . When I looked inside I found different wire on the power plug , damping material on the chassis and different kinds of wood glued inside the top cover . He showed me many things , one of them was that more expensive parts don't always sound better , it always depends on what the system needs . His system used Century 100 woofers in their stock enclosures , a sub that I don't remember the name of and a pair of Chinese monitors that he modified . All of his electronics were either modified or built by him . This crazy system put pretty much all of the high end systems I have heard to shame . I miss hanging with Mike as he had many interesting views on audio ( which he can prove ) and life . Last I heard he was living in an apartment above a recording studio somewhere . If someone knows more please share . Cheers all .

  24. #24

    Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

    Another Mike story . Mike developed a DAC using a cheap $125 Audio Alchemy Dac In The Box . It was a single bit processor and a tiny wall wart for a power supply . He built an enclosure that housed the dac , a robust power supply and a tubed analog output stage . The two tubes stuck out through the top so you could tube roll to your hearts content . It pretty much wiped the floor with almost any dac of that time period . It was called The Chorus due to the many voices it could have . I used this dac with a PS Audio Lamda transport that had a highly modified power supply . I learned that the power supplies and analog output stages had much more to do with the sound than the specs or what chipset was used .

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Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF

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