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February 18, 2020, 10:28 AM #1
Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
If most speakers and turntables are made with MDF would it make sense to say that equipment rack/stands/shelves should be made with MDF as well?
Paul
Speakers: Von Schweikert VR-5 Anniversary MK II Front L/R, LCR-35 Center, VR-1 Rear L/R Sub: JL Audio F113
Amps: PS Audio BHK Signature 300 Mono, McIntosh MC207 Pre-Amp PS Audio BHK Signature and Gold Note PH-10 Phono Stage/PSU-10 Power Supply
Turntable: VPI HR-X 12.7 TONEARM (2) and SDS, Stillpoints LPI
Tape Deck Otari 5050B II2
Music Server: Aurender N100H
Cartridges: Ortofon Cadenza Black, Lyra Helikon Mono Digital Source: Oppo UDP-205 DAC: Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE
SSP: Marantz AV8801 Cables: Wireworld Electra 7 (P) Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7, Shunyata Delta NR (I) Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 (S) Wireworld Platinum Starlight 7 (USB)
AC Power Regeneration: PS Audio DirectStream P15 Power Plant and Shunyata Denali 6000s V2.
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February 18, 2020, 10:33 AM #2
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
MDF synergy...............oh dear God help us all.
MDF is cheap and dimensionally stable, other than that I don't think it has any magical properties or should I say truly desirable qualities.
I do not go out of my way to avoid it however.
I have done comparable listening tests to various materials under my turntable, preamp and loudspeakers.
In general materials sound like what they look and feel like.
Wood is woody.
Glass is clear but with some glare, so on and so forth.
Composite materials in general suck the life out, this includes MDF, Corian and composite grinding wheels but sometimes you want just a little excess energy sucked out so use in careful measure.
If you think of your sound system as a musical instrument with sympathetic resonances, then material selection is paramount. Brass is by far my favorite material to tune my system with.
How 7 Different Woods Affect Your Acoustic Sound
(from Fender dot com)
You see it all the time when shopping for an acoustic guitar: Sitka spruce top, mahogany back and sides, rosewood bridge, this wood, that wood, another wood. All very impressive, but what does it mean? Most of us aren’t wood experts, so what exactly do different woods have to do with the sound of an acoustic guitar?
A great deal, actually. The woods used to build guitars—acoustic guitars in particular—are called tonewoods, and they have enormous effects on the sound and price of an instrument. Various woods have distinct sound qualities, especially when used for the top of an acoustic guitar, which is the most important wooden tonal element of the instrument.
You’re not going to be tested, but here are the ABCs of tonewoods — various woods and the sound qualities they’re noted for:
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February 18, 2020, 10:46 AM #3
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
Thanks kach22i....I wonder why the mega buck speakers and turntables would use MDF? It appears there are much better alternatives.
Paul
Speakers: Von Schweikert VR-5 Anniversary MK II Front L/R, LCR-35 Center, VR-1 Rear L/R Sub: JL Audio F113
Amps: PS Audio BHK Signature 300 Mono, McIntosh MC207 Pre-Amp PS Audio BHK Signature and Gold Note PH-10 Phono Stage/PSU-10 Power Supply
Turntable: VPI HR-X 12.7 TONEARM (2) and SDS, Stillpoints LPI
Tape Deck Otari 5050B II2
Music Server: Aurender N100H
Cartridges: Ortofon Cadenza Black, Lyra Helikon Mono Digital Source: Oppo UDP-205 DAC: Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE
SSP: Marantz AV8801 Cables: Wireworld Electra 7 (P) Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7, Shunyata Delta NR (I) Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 (S) Wireworld Platinum Starlight 7 (USB)
AC Power Regeneration: PS Audio DirectStream P15 Power Plant and Shunyata Denali 6000s V2.
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February 18, 2020, 10:54 AM #4
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
Could you give examples of “mega buck speakers” that use MDF. I need to know who to avoid.
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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February 18, 2020, 11:11 AM #5
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
I am not sure what you define as "mega buck".
A local store here actually carries "mega buck", one piece items +$20,000 and you see a lot of carbon fiber, cast and extruded aluminum, Hi-Tech plastics, composites, lamination of different materials, and exotic hardwoods.
Again if you think $7,000 MDF loudspeaker is mega buck, then what adjective applies to $70,000 speakers?
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February 18, 2020, 11:12 AM #6
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
Paul
Speakers: Von Schweikert VR-5 Anniversary MK II Front L/R, LCR-35 Center, VR-1 Rear L/R Sub: JL Audio F113
Amps: PS Audio BHK Signature 300 Mono, McIntosh MC207 Pre-Amp PS Audio BHK Signature and Gold Note PH-10 Phono Stage/PSU-10 Power Supply
Turntable: VPI HR-X 12.7 TONEARM (2) and SDS, Stillpoints LPI
Tape Deck Otari 5050B II2
Music Server: Aurender N100H
Cartridges: Ortofon Cadenza Black, Lyra Helikon Mono Digital Source: Oppo UDP-205 DAC: Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE
SSP: Marantz AV8801 Cables: Wireworld Electra 7 (P) Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7, Shunyata Delta NR (I) Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 (S) Wireworld Platinum Starlight 7 (USB)
AC Power Regeneration: PS Audio DirectStream P15 Power Plant and Shunyata Denali 6000s V2.
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February 18, 2020, 11:22 AM #7
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
Your MAGICO's qualify as MDF free I believe, so you are safe, lots of aluminum.
MAGICO
Enclosures
No singular material can satisfy all of the properties desirable in a loudspeaker enclosure.
As stiffness increases, moving from MDF to phenolic resin to aluminum, cabinet vibrations are drastically reduced, although a sharpened Q of the resonance results in an audible ring.
By damping the high Q resonance via elaborate constrained layer damping we have eliminated all energy storage and audible resonance from our enclosure.
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February 18, 2020, 11:34 AM #8
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
VPI likes to call their plinth a chassis, and in that model it looks to be (Acrylic-Aluminum-Acrylic) composite layer.
Some of VPI's lower cost models are MDF I believe, it has excellent dampening qualities, too much in some cases and can sound rather dead (a common criticism of VPI).
AVID has a line of turntables all using the same metal cast chassis/plinth, not sure if its aluminum, magnesium or gray metal used in brake rotors. In any case they differ in price mostly in the platter. The bottom of the line is a MDF platter that has gotten some good reviews. Anyway, as you step up in price you go to acrylic platters, aluminum, aluminum with copper and brass and all sorts of laminations to control resonances.
MDF is a one material solution that leans to the dead side but can be sandwiched.
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February 18, 2020, 11:49 AM #9
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
Paul
Speakers: Von Schweikert VR-5 Anniversary MK II Front L/R, LCR-35 Center, VR-1 Rear L/R Sub: JL Audio F113
Amps: PS Audio BHK Signature 300 Mono, McIntosh MC207 Pre-Amp PS Audio BHK Signature and Gold Note PH-10 Phono Stage/PSU-10 Power Supply
Turntable: VPI HR-X 12.7 TONEARM (2) and SDS, Stillpoints LPI
Tape Deck Otari 5050B II2
Music Server: Aurender N100H
Cartridges: Ortofon Cadenza Black, Lyra Helikon Mono Digital Source: Oppo UDP-205 DAC: Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE
SSP: Marantz AV8801 Cables: Wireworld Electra 7 (P) Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7, Shunyata Delta NR (I) Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 (S) Wireworld Platinum Starlight 7 (USB)
AC Power Regeneration: PS Audio DirectStream P15 Power Plant and Shunyata Denali 6000s V2.
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February 18, 2020, 02:02 PM #10
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
People that already know everything can be boring, I found my way here to teach and learn.
That is hard to do when everyone is a real and actual expert.
I only pretend to be.
EDIT:
MDF can be part of a speaker system or TT, I do not want to imply otherwise - just use with caution and be aware of it's properties, both good (if utilized) and bad (if ignored).
Examples:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109265.0
Speaker Design: The VR5 Anniversary Mark 2’s use a four-layer triple chambered hybrid transmission line cabinet. The innermost layer is ½ inch marble, then a special acoustic damping adhesive layer bonded to thick high-density MDF and beautifully finished with an African Hazelwood veneer.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-von-schweikert-audio-vr5-anniversary-mk2-original-not-upgraded-mint-2015-12-18-speakers-l4l-8a3
Cabinet and Bracing: A two-inch thick front baffle provides exceptional vibration control and image solidity, while MDF interlocking braces provide rigidity and freedom from boxy colorations.
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February 18, 2020, 04:11 PM #11
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February 18, 2020, 04:12 PM #12
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February 18, 2020, 04:17 PM #13
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February 18, 2020, 05:22 PM #14
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
I was surprised the other day when a very hi-end turntable I've heard was discovered to have a top coat of glass or glass composite as a final top layer of a platter over Dural aluminum.
Certainly there are layered affects I have not experimented with, and certain materials I just did not consider.
For instance 40 mm braced Hpl.
One of the more interesting platters I've read about is made from an unexpected material.
From the comments section:
https://www.analogplanet.com/content...-machine-magic
Cast iron base Submitted by schiele on Sun, 2012-07-01 14:48
No doubt one of the reasons the Anvil performs so well for its price is the designer's selection of inexpensive gray iron for the base. Gray iron is actually a composite of iron and graphite flakes. The impedance mismatch between these two materials dissipates vibration very effectively. Gray iron's damping capacity is literally hundreds of times better than steel or aluminum. Traditionally the material of choice for exhaust manifolds and brake rotors because of its ability to suppress NVH ( noise vibration and harshness) it has lost market share in recent years due to its weight. It is still the best material for precision machine tool bases. It is puzzling that no company before Anvil has been knowledgeable enough to recognize the suitability of this material for turntables.
http://www.atlasfdry.com/grayiron-damping.htm
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February 18, 2020, 05:45 PM #15
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
If anyone has a chart they find comparing commonly used materials in the making of turntables and loudspeakers regarding Mechanical Properties - Damping Capacity, please post it.
I would like to see how some plastics (acrylic + carbon fiber) and MDF stand up to the metals in the chart I've already posted.
I'm finding stuff, but not in the same units of measure.
I would also like to see where Brass/Bronze and Stainless Steel rank, and also glass/tempered + glass/laminated.
EDIT:
Found this PDF on Silicon Bronze Alloys for Music Applications.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAK
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February 19, 2020, 03:34 PM #16
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Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
I found a article by Mike VansEvers many moons back on tone and tuning. Just did a search and came up with a link to the first part of it
https://positive-feedback.com/pfback...evers.7n5.htmlMain System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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February 19, 2020, 09:37 PM #17
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
Speakers: Magico S3 (23')
Integrated:Gryphon Diablo 300 plus DAC
Streamer: HiFi Rose RS150b
CD/DVD: Oppo 205
Cables: Cardas-Shunyata-AudioQuest-Supra
Roon Core: sonicTransporter i7 powered with HDPlex 200w linear PS, running AudioLinux for Roon--Tidal and Qobuz with iPad Pro
Time is just a tool humans created to measure movement and record events
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February 20, 2020, 01:31 PM #18
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
I read about half of this yesterday (thank you for finding and posting it Mike B), and it goes way beyond my simple observations 10 years ago.
I like the comparison to room modes and the across the band frequency distribution verses the bundling or bunching up of frequencies that can have some unpleasant consequences.
I believe some manufactures are more aware of these resonance phenomena than others.
For instance my McIntosh CD player seemed immune to my experiments, while other equipment was very sensitive.
Perhaps a more obvious example would be the Brinkmann Balance turntable (not on my rack sadly) with custom platform to sit on.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/...nce-turntable2
Because the Balance doesn't have a suspension, Blair suggests using a Harmonic Resolution Systems HRS M3 isolation base ($2200), which is custom-designed for the Balance and features a split granite platform to isolate the motor from the platter/bearing assembly.
Perhaps this topic is more mainstream than I initially assumed.
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February 20, 2020, 04:09 PM #19
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
Good Audio is about the careful managing of resonances and not the total elimination of them. To do so will lead to what most describe as an unnatural HiFi sound, IMO ..
Regards
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February 20, 2020, 05:21 PM #20
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
Anyone interested in reading PART-2 of the Mike VansEvers article click below (page 3) and scroll 2/3rds of the way down to:
The Stereo Times
http://www.stereotimes.com/comm0600.shtml
Tone Balancing the Bass Response of the System
Overview
"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts" is a phrase that can be used to describe an in-tune audio system's bass response.
It is important to note that our focus is the bass response of the system, rather than the bass of any one component. This is called a "systems approach". Even though we will be working with only one component at a time, we are interested only in how well its bass integrates with the bass of the SYSTEM. Individual components by themselves cannot make sound, much less music...................
I found the link via Audio Asylum FYI.
And yes this part of the article quickly mentions MDF as being able to tame highs that are brash or annoying.
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February 21, 2020, 11:00 AM #21
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February 21, 2020, 02:08 PM #22
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
- Location
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- 234
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
I have not heard anything from or about Mike for a long time. Last I remember was a article where he tuned a reviewers room with a sculpture like structure made from various types of wood.
Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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February 26, 2020, 12:59 PM #23
- Join Date
- Mar 2018
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- 435
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
I used to spend many hours with Mike at his shop listening to different wood blocks and stuff . He modified a bunch of gear for me , the first one was an Aragon 4004 Mk2 . After Mike modified it , the results were stunning . It was smooth , detailed and the glare it had was gone . When I looked inside I found different wire on the power plug , damping material on the chassis and different kinds of wood glued inside the top cover . He showed me many things , one of them was that more expensive parts don't always sound better , it always depends on what the system needs . His system used Century 100 woofers in their stock enclosures , a sub that I don't remember the name of and a pair of Chinese monitors that he modified . All of his electronics were either modified or built by him . This crazy system put pretty much all of the high end systems I have heard to shame . I miss hanging with Mike as he had many interesting views on audio ( which he can prove ) and life . Last I heard he was living in an apartment above a recording studio somewhere . If someone knows more please share . Cheers all .
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February 27, 2020, 11:47 AM #24
- Join Date
- Mar 2018
- Posts
- 435
Re: Speakers and Turntables Made With MDF
Another Mike story . Mike developed a DAC using a cheap $125 Audio Alchemy Dac In The Box . It was a single bit processor and a tiny wall wart for a power supply . He built an enclosure that housed the dac , a robust power supply and a tubed analog output stage . The two tubes stuck out through the top so you could tube roll to your hearts content . It pretty much wiped the floor with almost any dac of that time period . It was called The Chorus due to the many voices it could have . I used this dac with a PS Audio Lamda transport that had a highly modified power supply . I learned that the power supplies and analog output stages had much more to do with the sound than the specs or what chipset was used .
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team
Ok, thanks very much for the quick response.
Esoteric DAC type, DSD or PCM?