Welcome to the AudioShark Forums.
Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    30,044

    Measuring jitter in 2020

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/...r-measurements


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  2. #2

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    Interesting to go back and proving that gear that was supposed to fix a problem actually did not! I wonder how many reviewers actually praised those devices at the time.
    As the article indicates, with specific tests (J-test) to measure jitter and newer DAC designs, jitter is no longer a problem or issue with modern components.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    786

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    Jitter has been a major problem for a long time

    https://youtu.be/3tRFL4q5m7c?t=39

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    saṃsāra
    Posts
    1,047

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    ...As the article indicates, with specific tests (J-test) to measure jitter and newer DAC designs, jitter is no longer a problem or issue with modern components.
    +1 / word / fact

    and, this only examines s/pdif data feeds. while not within the scope of the article, asynchronous DACs receiving a usb or ethernet signal is an alternate (better?) solution.
    viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | air tight atc-5 + atm-300r | clearaudio concept + virtuoso v2 MM | t+a dac8 dsd + kanjiroba diy transport + roon rock
    alp-tone audio analog cables | core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    East Bay, CA
    Posts
    2,392

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    JIitter continues to remain a problem, and with the increasing use of digital devices in our homes, e.g. so is....clock phase noise.

    The SMPS that power almost everything these days, including video doorbells, smart alarms, thermostats, computer & networking systems, cause high-impedance leakage currents...these are extremely hard to measure, and were only discovered in Q4, 2017, just about 2 years ago. In fact, I know of only one engineer who has the test equipment to measure them; John Swenson.

    The problem with these leakage currents is significantly impact clock phase noise. Increased clock phase noise causes its own problems, but it can also increase jitter.

    Any cheap digital clock, e.g. those that are in commonplace a routers, cable modems, NAS, EoP adapters, Ethernet switches, fiber media convertors, etc., cause these problems. And if they are powered by SMPS, its even worse.

    Then there is the impact of common mode noise, which can be problem with Ethernet cables.

    So...if you think that noise components, e.g. jitter and/or clock phase or common mode noise are a thing of the past with respect to digital components...you may want to go back and think again.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    East Bay, CA
    Posts
    2,392

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    +1 / word / fact

    and, this only examines s/pdif data feeds. while not within the scope of the article, asynchronous DACs receiving a usb or ethernet signal is an alternate (better?) solution.
    Its going to depend on the USB cable and its construction/design to a degree, but in general, USB cables connected from a computer, NUC, etc. directly to a DAC are problematical. And more so if the USB receiver on the DAC does not provide galvanic isolation.

    Better to use a network bridge in-between.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    saṃsāra
    Posts
    1,047

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    JIitter continues to remain a problem, and with the increasing use of digital devices in our homes, e.g. so is....clock phase noise.

    The SMPS that power almost everything these days, including video doorbells, smart alarms, thermostats, computer & networking systems, cause high-impedance leakage currents...these are extremely hard to measure, and were only discovered in Q4, 2017, just about 2 years ago. In fact, I know of only one engineer who has the test equipment to measure them; John Swenson.

    The problem with these leakage currents is significantly impact clock phase noise. Increased clock phase noise causes its own problems, but it can also increase jitter.

    Any cheap digital clock, e.g. those that are in commonplace a routers, cable modems, NAS, EoP adapters, Ethernet switches, fiber media convertors, etc., cause these problems. And if they are powered by SMPS, its even worse.

    Then there is the impact of common mode noise, which can be problem with Ethernet cables.

    So...if you think that noise components, e.g. jitter and/or clock phase or common mode noise are a thing of the past with respect to digital components...you may want to go back and think again.
    if i have read this post correctly it appears to conflate the two very different topics of electrical noise and jitter. the latter was the subject of the sterophile article. please, correct me if if have misread here.

    jitter and phase noise are the exact same thing -- just measured differently as discussed here and more authoritatively here.

    i agree electrical noise is an ongoing issue that needs to be addressed in the context of each individual system. otoh, i believe the separate issue of jitter (aka: phase noise) has been addressed with the asynchronous DAC.


    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Its going to depend on the USB cable and its construction/design to a degree, but in general, USB cables connected from a computer, NUC, etc. directly to a DAC are problematical. And more so if the USB receiver on the DAC does not provide galvanic isolation.

    Better to use a network bridge in-between.
    i know of no current production high-end DAC that does not provide galvanic isolation (in fact, most quality electronics incorporate galvanic isolation as a means of protecting delicate circuity from electrical surges). that being said, galvanic isolation is not a complete solution for the elimination of electrical noise.

    the state of the art in this respect is the lumin x1 which additionally offers optical isolation via an SFP input.

    however, this is again a separate issue than that of jitter.
    viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | air tight atc-5 + atm-300r | clearaudio concept + virtuoso v2 MM | t+a dac8 dsd + kanjiroba diy transport + roon rock
    alp-tone audio analog cables | core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    East Bay, CA
    Posts
    2,392

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    if i have read this post correctly it appears to conflate the two very different topics of electrical noise and jitter. the latter was the subject of the sterophile article. please, correct me if if have misread here.

    jitter and phase noise are the exact same thing -- just measured differently as discussed here and more authoritatively here.

    i agree electrical noise is an ongoing issue that needs to be addressed in the context of each individual system. otoh, i believe the separate issue of jitter (aka: phase noise) has been addressed with the asynchronous DAC.

    =uction high-end DAC that does not provide galvanic isolation (in fact, most quality electronics incorporate galvanic isolation as a means of protecting delicate circuity from electrical surges). that being said, galvanic isolation is not a complete solution for the elimination of electrical noise.

    the state of the art in this respect is the lumin x1 which additionally offers optical isolation via an SFP input.

    however, this is again a separate issue than that of jitter.
    I agree that jitter and clock phase noise are somewhat different transformations of the same noise component, however that's not the issue.

    My point was in response to "jitter is no longer problem with modern components". If a system is connected to any kind of SMPS, e.g. computers, NUCs, NAS, routers, etc. or using components with cheap digital clocks, e.g. consumer-grade networking components, then there are still problems, particularly due to the impact of high-impedance leakage currents.

  9. #9

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    I agree that jitter and clock phase noise are somewhat different transformations of the same noise component, however that's not the issue.

    My point was in response to "jitter is no longer problem with modern components". If a system is connected to any kind of SMPS, e.g. computers, NUCs, NAS, routers, etc. or using components with cheap digital clocks, e.g. consumer-grade networking components, then there are still problems, particularly due to the impact of high-impedance leakage currents.
    Feel free to read about jitter/timing/drift in the link below. Listen to the examples with exaggerated (manipulated) jitter/drift/timing issues and if you still believe that you are correct in what you are saying, feel free to post a comment at that site explaining why. That should generate an interesting discussion.


    http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/0...-lets-not.html

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    saṃsāra
    Posts
    1,047

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    I agree that jitter and clock phase noise are somewhat different transformations of the same noise component, however that's not the issue.

    My point was in response to "jitter is no longer problem with modern components". If a system is connected to any kind of SMPS, e.g. computers, NUCs, NAS, routers, etc. or using components with cheap digital clocks, e.g. consumer-grade networking components, then there are still problems, particularly due to the impact of high-impedance leakage currents.
    fair enough... and there seems to be agreement that 1) jitter and phase-noise are the exact same thing measured differently and that 2) electrical noise is a bad thing.

    however, you seem to be saying that in isolation the performance of a network device clock has an impact other clocks in the system and, specifically, the clock inside the DAC driving the conversion process. this is like saying the accuracy of my kitchen clock has an impact upon the accuracy of my wristwatch. i am at a loss to come up with the transmission mechanism that would cause this.

    if i have understood your assertion correctly, could you describe exactly and specifically the transmission mechanism that causes the accuracy one computer clock to affect the accuracy of another -- and just so that we are only focusing on clocks here, let's assume that 100% of the electrical noise has been eliminated from the system including "high-impedance leakage currents"?

    i am in no way trying to be contentious here -- i just want to learn. thanks!!
    viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | air tight atc-5 + atm-300r | clearaudio concept + virtuoso v2 MM | t+a dac8 dsd + kanjiroba diy transport + roon rock
    alp-tone audio analog cables | core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    saṃsāra
    Posts
    1,047

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    for anyone wishing to further geek-out on the subject of digital audio data clocking, here are two posts from a relevant thread on the roon community forum:

    post from the programme manager at dCS

    post from roon CTO

    althought in the context of RAAT (roon advanced audio transport), the entire thread itself is also well worth a read for those wishing to further understand the subject and/or for anyone designing + implementing a digital front end.
    viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | air tight atc-5 + atm-300r | clearaudio concept + virtuoso v2 MM | t+a dac8 dsd + kanjiroba diy transport + roon rock
    alp-tone audio analog cables | core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    346

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    "Most manufacturers of audio equipment have little to no understanding of how networks function and how the network may or may not have an impact on actual playback. Sadly, this has a negative impact on the consumers who are forking over their hard-earned cash for solutions to problems which don’t actually exist."

    hifi:
    power: Audioplan Powerstar, Audioplan Finefilter, Audioplan Powerplant, Powercord
    tube amp: Jadis DA 50 Signature RC, Line Magnetic 508ia
    speaker: Living Voice Avatar 2
    turntable: Pro-Ject Xtension 10 + Ortofon Quintet Black MC
    phono stage: Remton 383 MKII
    cables: Audioplan Musicable bic 7a, Profigold, Wilbrand

    home-cinema: Sony blu-ray, Yamaha rx v2700, Heco Metas 700 (4x), Heco center

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    5,948

    Re: Measuring jitter in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Any cheap digital clock, e.g. those that are in commonplace a routers, cable modems, NAS, EoP adapters, Ethernet switches, fiber media convertors, etc., cause these problems. And if they are powered by SMPS, its even worse.
    All of this probably comes into play. One of the main reasons that I very much prefer to keep my music on internal M.2 and SSD drives to eliminate other influences and affects on the signal traveling through all of these other devices. Also add to those listed above would be all of the cabling, unless you are in a position of replacing all of the ethernet and other cables in your house (don't forget those pesky little connectors and wall plates if you are trying to make all of this look good and "wife friendly") ....
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

    “One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
    "You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
    ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.

AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.

The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.

At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.

We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!

Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com

Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team

Measuring jitter in 2020

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •