Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio
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  1. #1
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    Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    Joe

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  3. #2
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    Re: Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    Besides the clickbait title, this is a fairly good brief history of how the internet has changed a part of the industry.
    Sincerely,

    Joe



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  5. #3
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    Re: Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    "Some retailers claim Audiogon.com ruined the business of specialty audio. That's a bogus claim, just like saying Amazon.com ruined retail for everything else. Bad retailers ruined retail. Audiogon.com harnessed the power of the Internet to create a community that has resulted in a more liquid market for selling audiophile gear. For manufacturers who don't like Audiogon.com and/or the idea of people buying used gear, there is a simple solution - just make new gear that is way better and at an excellent price. Consumers will vote with their wallets, and if new audiophile gear performs better at a very fair price, they will buy that. Plain and simple."

    Truer words never spoken.

    I find Audiogon a useful tool. We are full fledged dealer members (a costly monthly fee). But with that fee, we get many nice benefits such as lower costs for ads, promoting the ads with bold, appearing on the main screen, etc.

    What infuriates us about Audiogon is not audiogon itself, it's the scammers on audiogon. We take a lot of gear on trade and so we are active on the site to move it as quickly as possible (we aren't married to any piece I assure you!). We have had to adopt a very firm handed policy with respect to audiogon sales. NO REFUNDS. Payment is made by cashiers check, wire or ACH. No paypal. No CC. Why? I've lost over $10,000 on scammers. Here's an example:

    A little over a year ago, I had a lady call me and say she wanted to buy this pre-owned DAC for her husband for Christmas. She wanted to pay by CC. She called me several times, and sounded legit. She asked if we could ship the DAC to her sister so her husband wouldn't see it until Christmas. Sounded legit. She paid by CC, we shipped it to her sister. She emailed that it was received. All was good right? Wrong. 2 months later, Visa, issues a charge back for the full amount. Claims the card holder didn't recognize the charge. Was it a stolen card? Don't know. We fight it with Visa, provide all the proof, and we still lost. I emailed her, called her many times, nothing. No response. We were scammed.

    We have had people buy USED equipment, use it for 3-4 weeks and then make up some BS excuse and ask for their money back. We are not in the business of sending our used equipment for a "try and maybe buy" situation. In 2018, I sold Mark's (MDP) Hegel H30 amp for him on consignment. The guy had it for 6 weeks, emailed several times how much he loved it. Thought all went well. Nope, 6 weeks after he gets it, he claims, "oh, I think I hear a slight buzz in the right channel." I asked if would try another cable, he snapped, "I don't just have cables laying around here! No, I want my money back." I left the decision up to Mark. Mark said "give him his f'ing money back." Sure enough, we got the amp back and it was perfect. Nothing wrong at all. The next person bought it and that was 18 months ago. Not a peep.

    I have 50 stories like this.

    One more thing on Audiogon, I will point out an interesting fact: has anyone noticed that the "forums" section of Audiogon is under the "Explore" section and not under the "Learn" section. Just saying...

    There are some very interesting characters on that Audiogon forum I will say.
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  7. #4
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    Re: Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    Credit card cos. have emboldened their cardholders with certain privileges that make the consumer think they can return half eaten food or apparel they wore and want to return with rips and stains. Ive had similar issues with Audiogon as a peer to peer seller. I also have a NO RETURN policy but one buyer preemptively filed a paypal claim before he sent me a notice he "didn't like" the unit, mind you it worked perfectly and sold as described. He shipped the unit back the next day and Paypal suspended my account immediately, regardless of who was right and in spite of my objections citing no refunds.

    Im ambivalent about Audiogon in general, ive been trading on the site over 20 yrs, the first 15 or so were fine it was the change in ownership that left a bad taste during that transition and IMHO its not fully back to the way things once were.
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    Re: Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    Credit card cos. have emboldened their cardholders with certain privileges that make the consumer think they can return half eaten food or apparel they wore and want to return with rips and stains. Ive had similar issues with Audiogon as a peer to peer seller. One buyer preemptively filed a paypal claim before he sent me a notice he "didn't like" the unit, mind you it worked perfectly and sold as described. He shipped the unit back the next day and Paypal froze the funds for over a month even tho the gonif got his money back fairly quickly.

    Im ambivalent about Audiogon in general, ive been trading on the site over 20 yrs, the first 15 or so were fine it was the change in ownership that left a bad taste during that transition and IMHO its not fully back to the way things once were.
    Those are my sentiments as well. I do almost all my selling here, US Audio Mart, or Audio Asylum Trader. When I joined Audiogon in 2003, every ad was a $6 flat fee, no matter what was being sold. Now I understand inflation and other factors should be accounted for, but 2% of the sell price is way beyond inflationary adjustment. They have also made the search function somewhat less user friendly. I still buy on Audiogon, but I very rarely sell on Audiogon now.
    Anthony
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  10. #6
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    Re: Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    I have seen Audiogon change through the last two decades. I bought and sold some items there over the years. I now try US Audio Mart, and Audiocircles first. Seems like ebay and Audiogon have switched to a large number of dealers selling items.
    I rarely check in to the forums at 'gon. My limited exposure to them makes me think they have less participation?
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  11. #7
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    Re: Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    I can't believe you agree with this. Bad retailers ruined retail? BS. Not all independents could go direct so may used distributors, then comes Wal-Mart, Best Buy, now Amazon etc. who sell at distributor pricing to the public so what can independents do? Then people flock to save a dime not caring or realizing those independents offered actual service where the others are basically a warehouse. You used to be able to go in and exchange defective gear over the counter. Independents for the most part cared whether you came back. The bad retailers are still in business due to their bad practices.

    Buyers don't want to give you anything for used gear, they see nodifference in a piece nearly new and has warranty over something 2 years old. How can a good retailers sell a piece of gear at $4k when you can by it on Audigon for $1500.00? You know Audiogon has impacted the market or you and others like you wouldn't be selling there.

    The positive thing on Audiogon is they make a place to sell used gear so people can sell items to allow them to upgrade or get something for gear bought that turned out not to be what they wanted.

    The entire article read like an Audiogon commercial. I think any good retailer should be offended, and especially those ran out of business by the big box stores and internet whores.

    You may not be affected as much since you sell in the range of prices you do and your brands you don't see on Amazon.

    As

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    "Some retailers claim Audiogon.com ruined the business of specialty audio. That's a bogus claim, just like saying Amazon.com ruined retail for everything else. Bad retailers ruined retail. Audiogon.com harnessed the power of the Internet to create a community that has resulted in a more liquid market for selling audiophile gear. For manufacturers who don't like Audiogon.com and/or the idea of people buying used gear, there is a simple solution - just make new gear that is way better and at an excellent price. Consumers will vote with their wallets, and if new audiophile gear performs better at a very fair price, they will buy that. Plain and simple."

    Truer words never spoken.

    I find Audiogon a useful tool. We are full fledged dealer members (a costly monthly fee). But with that fee, we get many nice benefits such as lower costs for ads, promoting the ads with bold, appearing on the main screen, etc.

    What infuriates us about Audiogon is not audiogon itself, it's the scammers on audiogon. We take a lot of gear on trade and so we are active on the site to move it as quickly as possible (we aren't married to any piece I assure you!). We have had to adopt a very firm handed policy with respect to audiogon sales. NO REFUNDS. Payment is made by cashiers check, wire or ACH. No paypal. No CC. Why? I've lost over $10,000 on scammers. Here's an example:

    A little over a year ago, I had a lady call me and say she wanted to buy this pre-owned DAC for her husband for Christmas. She wanted to pay by CC. She called me several times, and sounded legit. She asked if we could ship the DAC to her sister so her husband wouldn't see it until Christmas. Sounded legit. She paid by CC, we shipped it to her sister. She emailed that it was received. All was good right? Wrong. 2 months later, Visa, issues a charge back for the full amount. Claims the card holder didn't recognize the charge. Was it a stolen card? Don't know. We fight it with Visa, provide all the proof, and we still lost. I emailed her, called her many times, nothing. No response. We were scammed.

    We have had people buy USED equipment, use it for 3-4 weeks and then make up some BS excuse and ask for their money back. We are not in the business of sending our used equipment for a "try and maybe buy" situation. In 2018, I sold Mark's (MDP) Hegel H30 amp for him on consignment. The guy had it for 6 weeks, emailed several times how much he loved it. Thought all went well. Nope, 6 weeks after he gets it, he claims, "oh, I think I hear a slight buzz in the right channel." I asked if would try another cable, he snapped, "I don't just have cables laying around here! No, I want my money back." I left the decision up to Mark. Mark said "give him his f'ing money back." Sure enough, we got the amp back and it was perfect. Nothing wrong at all. The next person bought it and that was 18 months ago. Not a peep.

    I have 50 stories like this.

    One more thing on Audiogon, I will point out an interesting fact: has anyone noticed that the "forums" section of Audiogon is under the "Explore" section and not under the "Learn" section. Just saying...

    There are some very interesting characters on that Audiogon forum I will say.
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  12. #8
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    Re: Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    I can't believe you agree with this. Bad retailers ruined retail? BS. Not all independents could go direct so may used distributors, then comes Wal-Mart, Best Buy, now Amazon etc. who sell at distributor pricing to the public so what can independents do? Then people flock to save a dime not caring or realizing those independents offered actual service where the others are basically a warehouse. You used to be able to go in and exchange defective gear over the counter. Independents for the most part cared whether you came back. The bad retailers are still in business due to their bad practices.

    Buyers don't want to give you anything for used gear, they see nodifference in a piece nearly new and has warranty over something 2 years old. How can a good retailers sell a piece of gear at $4k when you can by it on Audigon for $1500.00? You know Audiogon has impacted the market or you and others like you wouldn't be selling there.

    The positive thing on Audiogon is they make a place to sell used gear so people can sell items to allow them to upgrade or get something for gear bought that turned out not to be what they wanted.

    The entire article read like an Audiogon commercial. I think any good retailer should be offended, and especially those ran out of business by the big box stores and internet whores.

    You may not be affected as much since you sell in the range of prices you do and your brands you don't see on Amazon.

    As
    He said retailers have NOT ruined it. That I was agreeing with.


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  13. #9
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    Re: Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    Personally with all the fraud that takes place on such locations as Audiogon, I won't take the chance - my Money-Be-Gon.

    While I might purchase from someone here or another forum that has numerous posts, etc. I prefer dealing with a dealer.
    Sincerely,

    Joe



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  14. #10
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    Re: Why Audiogon Is the Most Positively Disruptive Force in High-End Audio

    Audiophiles are very "special" people.

    They don't understand the simple commercial rules of buying and selling, just because the desire to always make the best purchase makes them afraid of bad choices. So they think they have the right to try it and return it if they don't like it; buy it, try it and see the money returned if the equipment doesn't fit expectations. Many times, I have already defended some audio dealers against some violent attacks made simply because they did not give in to audiophile whims.

    As all of us, i presume, i made some bad choices in the past. I remember some of them.
    I remember, a beauuutifuuul NAD S300 that I liked to hear in the store, but that later at home couldn´t exceed the resident Sansui AUX711. I humbly told my disappointment and the dealer allowed me to make another choice. But could they have denied it? Of course, I chose and bought freely, What irritates in some audiophiles is the demand a money back when there is simply no problem with the product that justifies the return.

    The store that I mentioned, many years ago, had the habit of letting (some) customers try gear at home. One day I brought some Sonus Faber Concerto Home and I didn't like it. I arrived at the store and explained what I didn't like. So they gave me the second chance of trying the Grand Piano model, which ended up living with me for 10 years. Today, as far as I know, they no longer do it and it is not just for the risk of returning the product. Some audiophiles forget the courtesy they were given and, if they don´t like, they can´t resist the temptation of quickly rush to destroy on the internet the equipment and the brand.

    And then there are the malicious ones, but they exist everywhere and can appear in any type of purchase.

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