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  1. #1
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    Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    I have noticed an increasing difficulty understanding the spoken voice especially in noisy ambiences. I have even resorted to putting on captions on my tv viewing......dang Brits might as well be speaking French lol...... And of course when commercials come on at twice the volume I can’t find the remote fast enough. The only positive I find is that my frequency response loss is where the wife’s voice is.

    So I went over to my local Costco and had the dreaded hearing test done.
    Yep, moderate to moderately severe hearing loss in the spoken word region.
    I couldn’t find much current information on what’s the SOTA in hearing aids for audiophiles. Pretty much all new models have multiband programs which can automatically or manually be switched to depending on the situation or need. Phonak, Resound and Starkey were the most mentioned as having better music capabilities.
    Of course the price is commensurate with the technology which includes user apps that can control the various parameters with sticker prices up to 7K per pair.
    The audiologist told me that the primary design of hearing aids are for voices and not music. They may not do anything for your music in some conditions although in more severe cases it could very well help.
    I went with their Kirkland Signatures which are made by Phonak.
    They are very high quality with blue tooth for iPhone streaming. Missing the rechargeable battery option but the batteries are cheap.
    Costco has a 90day return policy so I thought I would try these and if my music enjoyment with them in place is an improvement I may splurge for the Resound aids but they jump to a hefty $2.7 K per pair.
    Here is my graph

    As you see Mike those Magicos M2´s would be waste!

    i will give updates after I get them in a couple of weeks of my journey.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Larry


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  2. #2
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    That is good info, interested in how they work. I know I have some degree of loss from 25 years in Machine Shops and Press Rooms. I plan to get a full physical in the new year and include a hearing test.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Well welcome to the issue of getting old. MY wife uses when she plays her piano, Signia Primax.


    https://www.audiologyonline.com/arti...-between-20872
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  4. #4
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    Well welcome to the issue of getting old. MY wife uses when she plays her piano, Signia Primax.


    https://www.audiologyonline.com/arti...-between-20872
    Thanks for the info and the link. I wish there was something more current than 2+ year old articles.
    Hopefull that some headway has been made with all the new technologies being developed.
    Larry


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  5. #5
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    I know this might be blasphemy for some, but what about using EQ to boost the appropriate frequencies? If you use Roon, it could be done with their DSP engine. Just a thought!
    Morgan

    NEW SYSTEM UNDER CONSTRUCTION

  6. #6
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Hearing aids process the signal for speech characteristics. It’s not just an EQ which is another reason I have my doubts of a ‘musical” improvement.
    You may be able to understand the spoken word better but the music may sound artificial or processed. We will see, I mean hear soon.
    It may be that I will have to replace ALL my audio gear once my hearing is corrected.
    Mike has been selling high end audio to a bunch of partially deaf old guys.......the emperor has no clothes!
    Shame on him!
    Larry


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  7. #7
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Hearing loss is a natural occurrence for all of us. Part of it is genetics and the other part the environment(s) we've been subjected to in our daily lives.

    As a former homicide detective who was on the SWAT Team (as a sniper and hostage negotiator ...) and a firearms instructor and previously served in the military I have fired 100s of 1000s of rounds of ammo on the range and elsewhere. My doctor remains in awe that I can still hear at all, much less be tested and have perfect hearing by his equipment standards. Part of the reason though is genetics and the wearing of at least double if not triple hearing protection. But I still have hearing loss. All of us do.

    One of the reasons why high-end audio is so subjective is because we all hear differently. Even the shape of our ears may allow more or less audio waves into our ear canals which waves are then coded and transmitted to our brains so we hear what we refer to as sound ... If we receive more waves then of course logically we hear more details. So, some systems may sound better to us than others. But it's not necessarily that one is bad and the other good, but what works best for us at a specific moment in our lives! So, as an attentive audiophiles' we should recognize that as our hearing changes so might / should our equipment!

  8. #8

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
    .....

    One of the reasons why high-end audio is so subjective is because we all hear differently. Even the shape of our ears may allow more or less audio waves into our ear canals which waves are then coded and transmitted to our brains so we hear what we refer to as sound ... If we receive more waves then of course logically we hear more details. So, some systems may sound better to us than others. But it's not necessarily that one is bad and the other good, but what works best for us at a specific moment in our lives! So, as an attentive audiophiles' we should recognize that as our hearing changes so might / should our equipment!
    This is an interesting observation. From what I have noticed, the most renown reviewers of the high-end are old guys. Yet not a single reviewer, from what I can tell, posts their hearing curves on a regular basis (if at all). So that makes you question if those reviewers's (unknown) hearing issues are being reflected into what they write about.

  9. #9
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    This is an interesting observation. From what I have noticed, the most renown reviewers of the high-end are old guys. Yet not a single reviewer, from what I can tell, posts their hearing curves on a regular basis (if at all). So that makes you question if those reviewers's (unknown) hearing issues are being reflected into what they write about.
    I agree. One would think that a hearing test would be a regular requirement for any reviewer. But sadly it doesn’t appear to be.

    This statement, “So that makes you question if those reviewers's (unknown) hearing issues are being reflected into what they write about” is an incredible and very valid point and one that IMO should be brought to the likes of Stereophile and the entire audiophile community ...

  10. #10
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Just turn the music up. I am 70 and I suspect my hearing has slightly declined, but a bit of volume fixes that. I do take care of my hearing, and wear ear protectors around loud noise. For example, the vacuum cleaner, or the lawn mower.
    Bud

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  11. #11

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Just turn the music up. I am 70 and I suspect my hearing has slightly declined, but a bit of volume fixes that.
    ..
    .
    Don’t take offense, but that’s a ‘Ok Boomer’ response.

  12. #12
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Don’t take offense, but that’s a ‘Ok Boomer’ response.
    LOL. No offense, but what does your answer mean?
    Bud

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  13. #13

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    This is one funny thread, as in humour to you yanks.. I was born with hearing loss.
    I have heard things in machinery before trained technicians & alerted management when I was operating machinery in the gold fields of Western Australia as I operated that machinery, that, there was critical failure about to happen. It did 4 weeks later. The technicians denied & refuted etc. etc.
    I hear cars, different noises etc, out of the norm, pull up outside my house. Perhaps because I have developed an effect that my brain implies because of my hearing deficit. All my life I have strived to make this a null & moot point... It never happened.
    Hearing aids are good. I've used them more off than on in the last 2 years. Mine were free because of work place cover & the industry.

  14. #14

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Don’t take offense, but that’s a ‘Ok Boomer’ response.
    Quite the opposite in fact. What you just said was an “Ok Boomer” response.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    LOL. No offense, but what does your answer mean?
    https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/ok-boomer/

  16. #16
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Good luck with your hearing aids Larry.

    4 years ago I finally succumed to my wife's requests to get hearing aids.

    I had reservations as to what it might do to music listening should I choose to use them at that time.
    I chose Widex for my equipment. Once I received them my Audiologist was very helpful with tweaking one of the programs in mine specifically for music listening. I took 3 or 4 adjustments to achieve it but, I think, she took personal satisfaction when we finally got it right. Possibly because she had worn hearing aids since she was a child.

    I found harmonies of voices once again sounded like a group of separate voices instead of a slightly distorted vocal that made me think my audio equipment was having a problem.
    At no time did I get the feeling of any negative effects on the music from the hearing aids.
    Whether what I think sounds wonderful is the same for othe is not my main concern, as it may not. That said I am 100% behind anyone trying hearing aids for music listening.

    In the end, I feel I received more benefit listening to music then existing in day to day life from the hearing aids.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    I've been a hearing aid wearer for 30 years. I lost all of the hearing in one ear, and am probably 40% deaf in the other. It's kind of a joke that I like audio equipment so much, given my hearing deficits. I didn't know all of the highs I was listening in music unitl I started wearing them while listening around 10 years ago. Prior to this, I just turned the volume up, but I was still missing the full range of music tonality until I started listening with my aids.

  18. #18
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    I'm going on my third pair. An expensive adventure. I'm at the stage I wake up in morning one of the first things I do is put my aids in.If I don't it's just not fair to the people around me. I don't want to be saying what.
    Some comments: make sure you are seeing an audiologist and not a hearing aid specialist, your first challenge will be getting over the itchyness this takes 1 to 2 months, I use over the ear type (OTE). I also use a streamer for my phone which I can not live without. I also use my streamer for my multi line phone at the office. One of the leaders in the hearing aid business is Oticon out of Denmark. They are widely available through out North America.
    I suspect a lot of Audiophiles have a hearing loss as we try to compensate for our loss.( just my guess)

  19. #19
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Those of you that have hearing aids, which ones do you use? Can you rate them for us? Are yours rechargeable or do you have to constantly purchase batteries? How well can you hear? How much have they improved your hearing or not improved your hearing?

    I would think this info would be valuable for most here.

  20. #20
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    I have used Phonak for years and am trying Oticon aids now. Being deaf in one ear I use a type of aid called a bicros. It has a microphone on the dead ear side which transmits the sound into the other ear’s aid. Other good brands include Starkey, Resound, Siemens and Widex. Oticon just came out with the first bicros aids to enable streaming music and phone calls directly to the aids from an iPhone or Android phone. It’s really terrific as the music or phone call is sent directly to the aids so no need to hold a phone to your ear during a call and no extraneous noise between Tidal music and my ears! Both brands have rechargeable aids but I’ve gotten use to batteries. They only need to be changed around once per week. Hearing aids to me make the music more crystalline, for lack of a better description. I cannot function without them and those around me are thankful I have them. For me, one unfortunate drawback, even with the latest digital technology, is that they are still terrible in crowds or where there is a lot of background noise. I tend to do better without aids in this situation. perhaps this deficit is due to the fact that I don’t hear binaurally, ie, in both ears. However, in all other listening environments, they are indispensable. If you or your loved ones notice your hearing isn’t what it used to be (for example, your wife complains you’re turning up the volume on the TV too high), you owe it to yourself to go first to an ENT for a thorough exam, and then, if your physician informs you that you would benefit from hearing aids, to a licensed audiologist to be fit for hearing aids. under state law, they have to give you a 30 day trial period, so you can make sure the ones you purchase are right for you. It takes your brain a week or so to get used to hearing aids, so even though they will at first seem very unnatural (for example you’ll hear your own voice and it will sound strange to you), after you adjust to them, you’ll find them to be indispensable.

    They are quite small and virtually unnoticeable to others, even if you believe everyone is looking at them in your ears. They aren’t. In any event, vanity should take a backseat to functionality every time! And believe me, your friends and family will appreciate you more for being able to hear them versus having them think you’re ignoring them or having them have to shout to get your attention!

    As to hearing aids being expensive, they cost a fraction of what many of us spend on audio components. Meaning no offense to those of you in the audio industry, what’s more important, having a $20,000 amplifier or a $5,000 pair of hearing aids that enable you to hear sufficiently and function better in life?

    Hope this helps those of you considering hearing aids.

  21. #21
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by RDSChicago View Post
    I have used Phonak for years and am trying Oticon aids now. Being deaf in one ear I use a type of aid called a bicros. It has a microphone on the dead ear side which transmits the sound into the other ear’s aid. Other good brands include Starkey, Resound, Siemens and Widex. Oticon just came out with the first bicros aids to enable streaming music and phone calls directly to the aids from an iPhone or Android phone. It’s really terrific as the music or phone call is sent directly to the aids so no need to hold a phone to your ear during a call and no extraneous noise between Tidal music and my ears! Both brands have rechargeable aids but I’ve gotten use to batteries. They only need to be changed around once per week. Hearing aids to me make the music more crystalline, for lack of a better description. I cannot function without them and those around me are thankful I have them. For me, one unfortunate drawback, even with the latest digital technology, is that they are still terrible in crowds or where there is a lot of background noise. I tend to do better without aids in this situation. perhaps this deficit is due to the fact that I don’t hear binaurally, ie, in both ears. However, in all other listening environments, they are indispensable. If you or your loved ones notice your hearing isn’t what it used to be (for example, your wife complains you’re turning up the volume on the TV too high), you owe it to yourself to go first to an ENT for a thorough exam, and then, if your physician informs you that you would benefit from hearing aids, to a licensed audiologist to be fit for hearing aids. under state law, they have to give you a 30 day trial period, so you can make sure the ones you purchase are right for you. It takes your brain a week or so to get used to hearing aids, so even though they will at first seem very unnatural (for example you’ll hear your own voice and it will sound strange to you), after you adjust to them, you’ll find them to be indispensable.

    They are quite small and virtually unnoticeable to others, even if you believe everyone is looking at them in your ears. They aren’t. In any event, vanity should take a backseat to functionality every time! And believe me, your friends and family will appreciate you more for being able to hear them versus having them think you’re ignoring them or having them have to shout to get your attention!

    As to hearing aids being expensive, they cost a fraction of what many of us spend on audio components. Meaning no offense to those of you in the audio industry, what’s more important, having a $20,000 amplifier or a $5,000 pair of hearing aids that enable you to hear sufficiently and function better in life?

    Hope this helps those of you considering hearing aids.
    RDSChicago this is fantastic information. Thanks for this post!

  22. #22
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    One thing about cost, My VSP (vision) insurance "VSP® Vision Care members can save up to 60% on the latest brand-name hearing aids. Dependents and even extended family members are eligible for exclusive savings, too.". That sure helped with my wife's hearing aids.
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  23. #23
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Hi Larry,

    I’m going to agree with Morgan (MPW). Use the hearing aids to improve your daily quality of life but take them out and use DSP correction for your high-end audio listening. It will sound much better than the hearing aids, which are optimized for speech clarity but not for high-end audio listening. DSP will provide the frequency correction you need while retaining sound quality. You can always defeat the DSP when friends come over for a listening session.

    Best of Luck,
    Ken
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  24. #24
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Morgan (MPW)......Not blasphemy at all. When I worked building audio systems for high end corporate jet aircraft, one of our clients had profound hearing loss. I worked with his audiologist to create a custom equalizer curve that was the inverse of his hearing loss.

    The end result just blew him away. He was so happy we was literally in tears. I made a duplicate equalizer for his home stereo. He said it never sounded better.

    This was before DSP was easy to implement so I think much more can be done today.
    Last edited by W9TR; December 22, 2019 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Clarity
    Tom

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  25. #25

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
    Morgan (MPW)......Not blasphemy at all. When I worked building audio systems for high end corporate jet aircraft, one of our clients had profound hearing loss. I worked with his audiologist to create a custom equalizer curve that was the inverse of his hearing loss.

    The end result just blew him away. He was so happy we was literally in tears. I made a duplicate equalizer for his home stereo. He said it never sounded better.

    This was before DSP was easy to implement so I think much more can be done today.
    Tom, your post is very interesting. When we talked to audiologists at our local medical school (UCSF), they told us that the hearing aids they used and the programs for those hearing aids are designed for restoring speech comprehension, and aren't designed for audiophiles. They typically work in the mid range to lower high range (well below 10K).

    I had a strange thing happen to me with my hearing aids. I got my first pair about six years ago (from Costco) when I was noticing a lot of interference from background noise when I was trying to listen to a speech from near the back of the audience. The back door of the room was open and their were kids playing outside. I had lost particular acuity in my left ear and couldn't hear much above 8K, with reduced acuity. My right ear was better, maybe over 10K. I did a bit better at concerts when I wore my hearing aids, but it got much better when I switched to UCSF and higher end devices (fortunately my medicare supplement covers most of the cost of the hearing aids.) I did have them adjust the response to be able to go above 10K for music. This went on for a few years.

    Then one day, while I was listening to the hifi at home, I took off my hearing aids and the sound was better! I plugged in my tone generator and swept up the frequency - getting closer to the tweeter to determine how high I could hear. To my amazement (shock and awe!) I could hear the 16K tone, but no higher. I went in for a test and both ears were better than before, especially my previously bad left ear.

    I have stopped wearing my hearing aids. I cannot hear quite as well as when I was younger - but music is much, much better than just a few years ago. My master tapes come with test tones - so I hear the 1K, 10K, 100Hz tones with no problem. Some come with additional tones at 12K and 15K. I can easily hear the 12K tones at my listening seat (have to actually turn down the volume, and I can hear the 15K tone when I get close to the tweeter unit. Before this recovery, I could not hear the 10K tones in my left ear without my hearing aids.

    If my hearing goes back down, I would like to see whether I can get a pair of hearing aids set with an inverse curve to my hearing loss, like Tom did for his client.

    Larry
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  26. #26
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    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Larry,
    Interesting that your hearing actually improved over time by using hearing aids.

    It would be interesting for those that have a hearing test results to try the inverse eq curve technique. It requires an equalizer and that brings some collateral sound quality issues with it, but worth a try.
    Tom

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  27. #27

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    I use Oticon. I have 3 maps,1, full on 180 degrees, no filter, 2,slightly less top end/rolled, 3, is everything that isn't in front of me is slightly reduced to the point of treating it as mainly less important so when I am talking to someone their voice is the target. All these I use I can use with a quick app adjustment installed into the aids that I adjust through the app on my phone. To me, the experience with them is definitely a better aural gathering to what I am used to, but, sometimes I just want to be an ok boomer because Im allowed to be.

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
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    USA
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    3,381

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharkmouth View Post
    I use Oticon. I have 3 maps,1, full on 180 degrees, no filter, 2,slightly less top end/rolled, 3, is everything that isn't in front of me is slightly reduced to the point of treating it as mainly less important so when I am talking to someone their voice is the target. All these I use I can use with a quick app adjustment installed into the aids that I adjust through the app on my phone. To me, the experience with them is definitely a better aural gathering to what I am used to, but, sometimes I just want to be an ok boomer because Im allowed to be.
    My friend is an Audiologist for Oticon. It’s amazing how far the technology has progressed over the last 10 to 15 years.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  29. #29

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Ken, totally agree. I have been lucky over the years & met some very good audiologists that have helped me immensely with my aids. Blue tooth calling, remote microphone etc with the Oticon is a great leap for the users. Alas, mine live on my desk 99% of their life.

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    St Petersburg Fl
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    656

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Well, the verdict is in. I am enjoying my new Costco signature by Phonak hearing aids with my audio system. The audiologist programed a music frequency curve correcting my hearing loss in the high range. I have an app which controls the individual volume of each aid. It’s possible for me to dial in the volume of my lost frequencies to the point where it’s seamless.
    Sort of like integrating a subwoofers volume control in your system except opposite.....like adjusting your tweeters instead. I have 2 more follow up appointments with the Audiologist to fine tune the aids. I may have him put in an alternate music frequency graph with perhaps mimicking a loudness button.
    As a side note the voice programs are not usable for serious music listening. You get shrill sounds reminding me of some of Mikes tweeter descriptions..lol.....
    Larry


    Lumin U1
    Chord Dave Dac
    Vac Master Preamp
    Vac 200IQ Amp
    Magico S3 Mk2 in Mcast Pewter
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  31. #31

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Larry, the high-end ones don't do squeaky noises...

  32. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    St Petersburg Fl
    Posts
    656

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    A pair of cheap ones in your ear are better than high end ones with all those fancy programs sitting on your desk 99% of the time! Lol
    Larry


    Lumin U1
    Chord Dave Dac
    Vac Master Preamp
    Vac 200IQ Amp
    Magico S3 Mk2 in Mcast Pewter
    Denali 6000S
    Ansuz and MIT cabling
    Timbernation walnut racks

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    St Petersburg Fl
    Posts
    656

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    A downside is that when I’m in my car and my cell rings my hearing aids, my Apple Watch, my iPhone, and my car blue tooth all ring at once! .....causing old phart panic
    Larry


    Lumin U1
    Chord Dave Dac
    Vac Master Preamp
    Vac 200IQ Amp
    Magico S3 Mk2 in Mcast Pewter
    Denali 6000S
    Ansuz and MIT cabling
    Timbernation walnut racks

  34. #34

    Re: Hearing Aids for audiophiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dguitarnut View Post
    A downside is that when I’m in my car and my cell rings my hearing aids, my Apple Watch, my iPhone, and my car blue tooth all ring at once! .....causing old phart panic
    & you wonder why they're on my desk....

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