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  1. #1
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    Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Do such animals exist?

  2. #2
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    I don’t need any subs Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers


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  3. #3

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Martin Logan subs.
    Anthony
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  4. #4
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    They do exist but they are not cheap.

    Wilson makes some and Magico makes some.
    Jock

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  5. #5
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    A sub being ‘fast’ is more about how it is integrated with the mains than a brand, style, or type. To be ‘fast’ a sub must time align with the mains, which usually means some sort of external crossover that has the ability to delay the acoustic output of the mains so it matches that of the sub.
    Tom

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  6. #6
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    One could also characterize a fast subwoofer based on group delay and decay measurements. Independent of any integration with other speakers.
    Neko Audio
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  7. #7

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
    A sub being ‘fast’ is more about how it is integrated with the mains than a brand, style, or type. To be ‘fast’ a sub must time align with the mains, which usually means some sort of external crossover that has the ability to delay the acoustic output of the mains so it matches that of the sub.
    Totally agree.

  8. #8
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
    A sub being ‘fast’ is more about how it is integrated with the mains than a brand, style, or type. To be ‘fast’ a sub must time align with the mains, which usually means some sort of external crossover that has the ability to delay the acoustic output of the mains so it matches that of the sub.
    Wouldn't it be better to have the crossover/low pass filter in the sub(s) provide the necessary electrical characteristics to mate seamlessly with the mains?

  9. #9

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Musicfirst View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to have the crossover/low pass filter in the sub(s) provide the necessary electrical characteristics to mate seamlessly with the mains?
    Read about properly integrating a sub here.


    https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...&source=search


    https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...&source=search

  10. #10
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Of course if you sell $3000 outboard crossovers you will contend that's the best method.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Jays CDT3 Mk3 , Auralic Aries G2.2, Holo May KTE, Supratek Cabernet, Kinki Studio EX-B7 monoblocks, Verity Audio Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC, SC & PC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Inakustik USB and I2S, (2) Puritan Audio Labs PSM-156 with Groundmaster City, Timbernation rack

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  11. #11
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Musicfirst View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to have the crossover/low pass filter in the sub(s) provide the necessary electrical characteristics to mate seamlessly with the mains?
    For seamless acoustic summation, both the high and low pass electrical filters matter and more importantly, the physical spatial position of the sources. The latter being the bane of most separated subwoofer setups. The low pass filter itself creates a delay, often compounded by the greater distance of the subs away from listener, vs mains. Without delay for the mains (usually 99.9% non existent), proper phase (and thus frequency) integration exists only in the mind, vs the actual room. The room of course, also plays a very large part in both integration, amplitude smoothness, decay and "speed" of the bass.

    cheers,

    AJ

  12. #12
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    TBI Sound.
    NORMAN
    Custom PC with Memory Player Software Suite/ Modded Denon CD transport>Lampi GG1 (and sometimes PACIFIC) DHT tube Dac> Rowen 850W Isolating Transformer/ Rowen SS Preamp and PA1 monoblocs/Lampi Silk power cond. with Phase flipper> Heil AMT KITHARA & Syrinx in parallel hookup. Swiss cables (Reference line) for PC/interconnects and speaker cables. Goldmund Sweetcord PC. FTA Callisto unpowered USB cable. Basic analog: vintage Lenco L78 TT with Rowen mat, Denon MM cart, iFi iPhono2 with 15v Hynes SR3 LPSU. Synology 12 TB NAS. 2nd system:KenWin Bluetooth speaker 3rd system TBI Millemnium amp with Aulos speakers and SB Duo hookup.

  13. #13
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    duplicate post
    Tom

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  14. #14
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Wouldn't it be better to have the crossover/low pass filter in the sub(s) provide the necessary electrical characteristics to mate seamlessly with the mains?
    Great question - the reason crossovers/equalizers in subs don’t solve the ‘fast’ problem is that the group delay of a modern sub is large enough (especially if it has some kind of digital eq built in) that the initial direct sound from the sub will be delayed with respect to the mains. So you need an external crossover to add delay to
    the mains so that they are synchronized in time with the sub output.

    The point about knowing group delay of a sub is also a great one - the smaller the overall delay the better chance you have of integrating it with your mains.
    Tom

    Audio:
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    Amati Homage VOX Center,
    Proac Response 1sc Rears,
    Three MC2301's for L,C,R
    MC 602 for the rears
    C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 77
    Nottingham Dais with Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
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  15. #15

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Of course if you sell $3000 outboard crossovers you will contend that's the best method.
    Regardless of who sells what, you can’t argue with physics. And while it is true that JL makes an outboard crossover, other manufactures also make outboard crossovers to get similar results. Also you can use any preamp that has the capability of creating time delays for the main speakers (that’s the route I used).

  16. #16
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    NORMAN
    Custom PC with Memory Player Software Suite/ Modded Denon CD transport>Lampi GG1 (and sometimes PACIFIC) DHT tube Dac> Rowen 850W Isolating Transformer/ Rowen SS Preamp and PA1 monoblocs/Lampi Silk power cond. with Phase flipper> Heil AMT KITHARA & Syrinx in parallel hookup. Swiss cables (Reference line) for PC/interconnects and speaker cables. Goldmund Sweetcord PC. FTA Callisto unpowered USB cable. Basic analog: vintage Lenco L78 TT with Rowen mat, Denon MM cart, iFi iPhono2 with 15v Hynes SR3 LPSU. Synology 12 TB NAS. 2nd system:KenWin Bluetooth speaker 3rd system TBI Millemnium amp with Aulos speakers and SB Duo hookup.

  17. #17
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    The L'Opera subs in a Learjet 7500 are faster

  18. #18
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    I think of when someone says fastest sub, I think of GREAT sound that integrates with the main speakers.

    Speed being just a way of verbal communication - not exactly literal.

    Fast - can be had at pretty much any price. Probably just need a crossover that isn't in the way and a big responsive magnet. In some people's mind smaller the cone, faster the sub is. Maybe but to put out enough acoustical energy, it usually sounds like crap.

    So like anything - it is a give and take.

    When I said Wilson and Magico -- out of all the subs I've had and had many hours/days experience with. Those have integrated best with the most systems/rooms. Technically - they might measure as the slowest subs out there. Don't care. Ears will tell you that they work the best.
    Jock

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  19. #19
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    well, er, hummm.

    the fastest subwoofer would be one you are never aware is there. I would prefer to call this perspective a stealth subwoofer, instead of ultra fast. the goal is (1) seamless coherence first, being of a piece with the rest of the whole frequency range. by definition it is 'fast enough' to keep up. then (2) extension, (3) tunefulness, and (4) authority. but the rub is getting 1, and still having 2, 3 and 4.

    subs for ultra fast speakers really need to be designed into the speaker. it's the lack of coherence we hear as plodding bass, not whether the driver is able to keep up. fast is is just seamless by another name.

    my twin tower MM7 speakers are a completely integrated system. meaning that the main passive towers (that extend into the 20hz region) are rolled off at the bottom to 'fit' the active bass towers (that go up to 40hz) perfectly. and the bass towers are adjustable for the room. the MM7's use a first order crossover and are time and phase aligned. so assuming that the towers are set-up equidistant from the listener, your wave launch is coherent top to bottom.

    18 months into owning the MM7's my speaker designer visited to do the final room set-up for me. but there was a problem, I had a major 10db+ suck-out at 30hz so he just got it as right as he could, but suggested that the suck out was due to a ceiling bass trap and that if I closed it up he figured the suck-out would go away. but then I would need to re-adjust my bass tower settings. 9 months later I did close up that ceiling bass trap, it solved the 30hz suck-out, but it did throw off the adjustments. so I had to start over.

    my speaker designer had used his program to do the set up, but I did not have that tool. so what I did was to start making adjustments and my reference was nothing bad. by that I mean I would turn off the active bass tower to eliminate it, and see if I preferred it on or off. if it was better on then I was going in the right direction. I would keep moving in one direction until I found the sweet spot, then back the other way, then back again. in essence the 'off' position was the 'control' showing the reference point. the bass tower had to always be better than that. it had to disappear into the music. the bass could not intrude on the music. I kept working at improving bass performance, always comparing it to the 'off' position to make sure it never intruded.

    I viewed this as a stealth process. first, do no harm.

    each bass tower has -4- 15" powered subwoofer drivers, and -2- 1000 watt amplifiers. each amplifier has 4 dials to adjust. I spent 6 weeks adjusting each set of 4 dials hundreds and hundreds of times, then going back and forth as the four adjustments were all dynamically inter-related. at the end, my bass was....and is still stealthy. it does not intrude, you are never aware of -2- 7 foot tall 750 pound towers each with -4- 15" subwoofers. it only serves the music. of course; when called upon musically it can get the job done to -3db at 7hz and -6db at 3hz.

    fast? so fast you are not aware they are there.

    I have many visitors to my room, and this bottom octave coherence and total seamlessness is a consistent comment from everyone.

    again; ultra fast bass is bass that serves the music and does not call attention to itself.

    added note; of course; the bass we hear is not really in the subwoofer; musically it is more the mid and upper bass; 40hz-250hz. this is where the power of the bass lives; where double bass, piano, vocals, and drum kits live and die. and my MM7 speakers have -4- 11" ceramic matrix woofer drivers in each passive main tower to cover these frequencies. with so much driver surface covering these frequencies the driver excursion is minimal keeping the linearity, and in a 97db efficient speaker the amplifier is not stressed, and since most speakers have a crossover in these frequencies the lack of one here is another advantage. so you want fast bass, this is fast bass.

    subwoofers are really not the point. they can hurt, but don't really do 'fast'. just say'n.

  20. #20

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    I was never able to integrate my Magico with Paradigm Studio series sub, which I believe has 1700 watts and it generally gets good praise on the internet. Enter JL 113v2 and viola! I wouldn’t argue against there’s a such thing as fast sub.

  21. #21
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    I was worried about this for my own setup, particularly because my main speakers are Janszen ZA1.1s (now known as Carmelitas) which are a combination electrostatic monopole matched to two 7" dynamic woofers. These gave me solid bass down to perhaps 40-45 Hz, but I wanted more full range, so I added a sealed SVS Ultra-13 subwoofer (now known as the SB-4000). My apartment space available limits me to only one, but I have been exceptionally impressed with how "fast" it is compared to my main speakers. I cannot tell where the sub is physically located in the room, even with it being located very close to the left speaker. Of course, having only one sub means I have to deal with room modes (which don't occur at my main listening position, but do if I decide to sit off-axis in my recliner), but since it's just me in the apartment, I'm not that worried about it.
    Electronics: Pass Labs XP-22, Pass Labs X250.8
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  22. #22

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    http://wilson-benesch.com/torus-infrasonic-generator/

    I really don't care what anyone's opinion on these are as I've had them in 6 different rooms & even more systems & have only ever heard unnecessarily added sound from my poor judgement of tuning. Fast?. These things are waiting at the check-in lounge half cut already...

  23. #23

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Speed is more of a perception than a reality. A music passage at the recording has a certain speed or tempo. After reading the music info from the recording and by the time we hear the tempo at the speakers, it should be near impossible to exactly match the tempo of the music embedded in the recording. It should also be near impossible for any two playback systems to play a music passage at the exact same tempo, even if the playback systems appear identical.

    The reason for this is distortions. Every system contains various distortions to one good degree or another. Distortions corrupt the fidelity of the input signal and the more distorted the playback presentation the more the music notes are less distinct seemingly run together and hence the slower the perceived tempo. Playback systems with less distortions make each musical note more distinct and separate from the next music note and therefore, the perception is a faster tempo.

    I remember a reviewer out of TAS maybe 15 years ago when reviewing a CDP, ask the reader why does one component have a perceived faster tempo than another as he was concerned about this unit's perceived slow tempo. But cables can also change the perceived tempo just as does the noisy AC coming from the street.

    Also, before I forget. Superior main speaker placement within the room has as much or more to do with perceived tempo as any/all other distortions. Finding the optimal location for your full-range speakers will have as much or more impact on bass than other distortions elsewhere as it is here where the fastest, tightest, deepest, and more well-defined bass is found and ultimately has a large impact on tempo.

    Things really don't change much when it comes to lower frequencies, woofers, mains, and subs. The tempo at the speaker mains is basically WYHIWYG (What you hear is what you get whether fast or slow). The main speakers will generate a speed based entirely on their own placement, their own engineering, as well as the designed engineering and all the associated distortions generated from the speaker drivers back to the service panel.

    Assuming we're talking well-enough designed/engineered subwoofers, hopefully we're not really talking so much about speed per se. Rather we're talking about getting the subwoofer's input signal to match or sync with the main speakers' input signal so that the music is flowing seamlessly into the room regardless of the frequencies.

    Perhaps your speakers are well-positioned and your system induces less distortion than average, so you perceive your main speakers to be fast. But based on all the above, speed really should be irrelevant to your question. Hence, I suspect what you're really asking is, which subwoofers allow the greatest opportunity to match their speed or tempo to my main speakers, whether fast or slow? Or better yet, how do I increase my chances to match a given subwoofer to the sound from my mains?

    If that is your real question (if not I apologize), then here's a few policies that I follow to increase the probability of properly syncing a sub(s) to the mains:

    1. Ensure your interconnects or speaker cables to the sub are the exact same make and model used elsewhere in your system. Different cables induce different distortions and it just so happens that they also induce different tempos. Hence, using different cabling to the sub is a rather sure-fire way to almost guarantee a certain amount of disjointed sound.

    2. If you're using aftermarket power cables, line conditioners, etc, elsewhere, then for the same reason as #1 above, you should do likewise with the sub. Remember that when trying to sync any 2 things everything matters and hopefully the days are gone where we've been taught that we can treat our subs different than the mains because they only handle the lowest frequencies, etc.

    3. Ensure the subwoofer is well-anchored to the floor. Hopefully just like everything else in the playback chain already is. This has a good deal to do how musical the bass will be.

    4. Though I've not tried it, I have my doubts about high-level inputs from the main amps to the sub. Among other things, this implies the input signal has already been processed through one amplifier, including its associated distortions, must now be processed through a second ampifier which also induces its own distortions. So not only are we talking doubling up on potential distortions at the sub induced by 2 amplifiers instead of one, we're also talking potential timing issues since the sub's input signal must be processed through 2 amplifiers instead of one. Yes, I realize some subwoofer companies like REL insist on high-level connections. But then REL also provides their own high-level subwoofer cables which IME is a big no-no. See #1 above.

    5. Ensure your main full-range speakers are optimally placed within the room first before ever turning on the subwoofer. Once you're satisfied with the main speakers placement measured by how pleased you are with their musical bass, then it's time to syncronize the subwoofer.

    6. Like the main speakers, ensure the subwoofer is optimally placed for fastest, tightest, deepest, most well-defined bass.

    7. Buying the right subwoofer. Tee hee. By this I mean, to ensure that your subwoofer has enough of the right dials, knobs, and/or switches to configure and contour the bass to sync with the mains. The more levers and dials, I presume the greater the chances to match the mains.

    In the end, it's all hit and miss. Your main speakers may be optimally positioned but your subwoofer is not. Or vice versa. And finding the optimal location for main speakers and subwoofer can be rather painstaking and sometimes seem impossible. Really, it's more art than science. But if the planets are in alignment and one is able to cross into the promised land where the bass is astonishly "quick", tight, deep, and well-defined and flat out musical, and merges beautifully with the mains, this alone will set a given playback system apart from most any other. Then again, with the right main full-range speakers and optmal placement, this same fabulously musical bass can also be achieved without a subwoofer at least down to 23Hz or so - depending on the main's range.

    Hopefully, some of the bullet items I mentioned above can minimize some of the guesswork and pain associated with this most rewarding art.

  24. #24
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.

    Quote Originally Posted by iamnothe View Post
    Speed is more of a perception than a reality. A music passage at the recording has a certain speed or tempo. After reading the music info from the recording and by the time we hear the tempo at the speakers, it should be near impossible to exactly match the tempo of the music embedded in the recording. It should also be near impossible for any two playback systems to play a music passage at the exact same tempo, even if the playback systems appear identical.

    The reason for this is distortions. Every system contains various distortions to one good degree or another. Distortions corrupt the fidelity of the input signal and the more distorted the playback presentation the more the music notes are less distinct seemingly run together and hence the slower the perceived tempo. Playback systems with less distortions make each musical note more distinct and separate from the next music note and therefore, the perception is a faster tempo.

    I remember a reviewer out of TAS maybe 15 years ago when reviewing a CDP, ask the reader why does one component have a perceived faster tempo than another as he was concerned about this unit's perceived slow tempo. But cables can also change the perceived tempo just as does the noisy AC coming from the street.

    Also, before I forget. Superior main speaker placement within the room has as much or more to do with perceived tempo as any/all other distortions. Finding the optimal location for your full-range speakers will have as much or more impact on bass than other distortions elsewhere as it is here where the fastest, tightest, deepest, and more well-defined bass is found and ultimately has a large impact on tempo.

    Things really don't change much when it comes to lower frequencies, woofers, mains, and subs. The tempo at the speaker mains is basically WYHIWYG (What you hear is what you get whether fast or slow). The main speakers will generate a speed based entirely on their own placement, their own engineering, as well as the designed engineering and all the associated distortions generated from the speaker drivers back to the service panel.

    Assuming we're talking well-enough designed/engineered subwoofers, hopefully we're not really talking so much about speed per se. Rather we're talking about getting the subwoofer's input signal to match or sync with the main speakers' input signal so that the music is flowing seamlessly into the room regardless of the frequencies.

    Perhaps your speakers are well-positioned and your system induces less distortion than average, so you perceive your main speakers to be fast. But based on all the above, speed really should be irrelevant to your question. Hence, I suspect what you're really asking is, which subwoofers allow the greatest opportunity to match their speed or tempo to my main speakers, whether fast or slow? Or better yet, how do I increase my chances to match a given subwoofer to the sound from my mains?

    If that is your real question (if not I apologize), then here's a few policies that I follow to increase the probability of properly syncing a sub(s) to the mains:

    1. Ensure your interconnects or speaker cables to the sub are the exact same make and model used elsewhere in your system. Different cables induce different distortions and it just so happens that they also induce different tempos. Hence, using different cabling to the sub is a rather sure-fire way to almost guarantee a certain amount of disjointed sound.

    2. If you're using aftermarket power cables, line conditioners, etc, elsewhere, then for the same reason as #1 above, you should do likewise with the sub. Remember that when trying to sync any 2 things everything matters and hopefully the days are gone where we've been taught that we can treat our subs different than the mains because they only handle the lowest frequencies, etc.

    3. Ensure the subwoofer is well-anchored to the floor. Hopefully just like everything else in the playback chain already is. This has a good deal to do how musical the bass will be.

    4. Though I've not tried it, I have my doubts about high-level inputs from the main amps to the sub. Among other things, this implies the input signal has already been processed through one amplifier, including its associated distortions, must now be processed through a second ampifier which also induces its own distortions. So not only are we talking doubling up on potential distortions at the sub induced by 2 amplifiers instead of one, we're also talking potential timing issues since the sub's input signal must be processed through 2 amplifiers instead of one. Yes, I realize some subwoofer companies like REL insist on high-level connections. But then REL also provides their own high-level subwoofer cables which IME is a big no-no. See #1 above.

    5. Ensure your main full-range speakers are optimally placed within the room first before ever turning on the subwoofer. Once you're satisfied with the main speakers placement measured by how pleased you are with their musical bass, then it's time to syncronize the subwoofer.

    6. Like the main speakers, ensure the subwoofer is optimally placed for fastest, tightest, deepest, most well-defined bass.

    7. Buying the right subwoofer. Tee hee. By this I mean, to ensure that your subwoofer has enough of the right dials, knobs, and/or switches to configure and contour the bass to sync with the mains. The more levers and dials, I presume the greater the chances to match the mains.

    In the end, it's all hit and miss. Your main speakers may be optimally positioned but your subwoofer is not. Or vice versa. And finding the optimal location for main speakers and subwoofer can be rather painstaking and sometimes seem impossible. Really, it's more art than science. But if the planets are in alignment and one is able to cross into the promised land where the bass is astonishly "quick", tight, deep, and well-defined and flat out musical, and merges beautifully with the mains, this alone will set a given playback system apart from most any other. Then again, with the right main full-range speakers and optmal placement, this same fabulously musical bass can also be achieved without a subwoofer at least down to 23Hz or so - depending on the main's range.

    Hopefully, some of the bullet items I mentioned above can minimize some of the guesswork and pain associated with this most rewarding art.
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  25. #25

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Musicfirst View Post
    Do such animals exist?
    How long have you been an audio dealer?
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  26. #26
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    How long have you been an audio dealer?
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  27. #27
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    I agree with #5

    Everything else depends on the system and which sub and sub amp is used. (Yes, most subs come with a dedicated amp - but not all, especially at the high end.)

    Quote Originally Posted by iamnothe View Post
    Speed is more of a perception than a reality. A music passage at the recording has a certain speed or tempo. After reading the music info from the recording and by the time we hear the tempo at the speakers, it should be near impossible to exactly match the tempo of the music embedded in the recording. It should also be near impossible for any two playback systems to play a music passage at the exact same tempo, even if the playback systems appear identical.

    The reason for this is distortions. Every system contains various distortions to one good degree or another. Distortions corrupt the fidelity of the input signal and the more distorted the playback presentation the more the music notes are less distinct seemingly run together and hence the slower the perceived tempo. Playback systems with less distortions make each musical note more distinct and separate from the next music note and therefore, the perception is a faster tempo.

    I remember a reviewer out of TAS maybe 15 years ago when reviewing a CDP, ask the reader why does one component have a perceived faster tempo than another as he was concerned about this unit's perceived slow tempo. But cables can also change the perceived tempo just as does the noisy AC coming from the street.

    Also, before I forget. Superior main speaker placement within the room has as much or more to do with perceived tempo as any/all other distortions. Finding the optimal location for your full-range speakers will have as much or more impact on bass than other distortions elsewhere as it is here where the fastest, tightest, deepest, and more well-defined bass is found and ultimately has a large impact on tempo.

    Things really don't change much when it comes to lower frequencies, woofers, mains, and subs. The tempo at the speaker mains is basically WYHIWYG (What you hear is what you get whether fast or slow). The main speakers will generate a speed based entirely on their own placement, their own engineering, as well as the designed engineering and all the associated distortions generated from the speaker drivers back to the service panel.

    Assuming we're talking well-enough designed/engineered subwoofers, hopefully we're not really talking so much about speed per se. Rather we're talking about getting the subwoofer's input signal to match or sync with the main speakers' input signal so that the music is flowing seamlessly into the room regardless of the frequencies.

    Perhaps your speakers are well-positioned and your system induces less distortion than average, so you perceive your main speakers to be fast. But based on all the above, speed really should be irrelevant to your question. Hence, I suspect what you're really asking is, which subwoofers allow the greatest opportunity to match their speed or tempo to my main speakers, whether fast or slow? Or better yet, how do I increase my chances to match a given subwoofer to the sound from my mains?

    If that is your real question (if not I apologize), then here's a few policies that I follow to increase the probability of properly syncing a sub(s) to the mains:

    1. Ensure your interconnects or speaker cables to the sub are the exact same make and model used elsewhere in your system. Different cables induce different distortions and it just so happens that they also induce different tempos. Hence, using different cabling to the sub is a rather sure-fire way to almost guarantee a certain amount of disjointed sound.

    2. If you're using aftermarket power cables, line conditioners, etc, elsewhere, then for the same reason as #1 above, you should do likewise with the sub. Remember that when trying to sync any 2 things everything matters and hopefully the days are gone where we've been taught that we can treat our subs different than the mains because they only handle the lowest frequencies, etc.

    3. Ensure the subwoofer is well-anchored to the floor. Hopefully just like everything else in the playback chain already is. This has a good deal to do how musical the bass will be.

    4. Though I've not tried it, I have my doubts about high-level inputs from the main amps to the sub. Among other things, this implies the input signal has already been processed through one amplifier, including its associated distortions, must now be processed through a second ampifier which also induces its own distortions. So not only are we talking doubling up on potential distortions at the sub induced by 2 amplifiers instead of one, we're also talking potential timing issues since the sub's input signal must be processed through 2 amplifiers instead of one. Yes, I realize some subwoofer companies like REL insist on high-level connections. But then REL also provides their own high-level subwoofer cables which IME is a big no-no. See #1 above.

    5. Ensure your main full-range speakers are optimally placed within the room first before ever turning on the subwoofer. Once you're satisfied with the main speakers placement measured by how pleased you are with their musical bass, then it's time to syncronize the subwoofer.

    6. Like the main speakers, ensure the subwoofer is optimally placed for fastest, tightest, deepest, most well-defined bass.

    7. Buying the right subwoofer. Tee hee. By this I mean, to ensure that your subwoofer has enough of the right dials, knobs, and/or switches to configure and contour the bass to sync with the mains. The more levers and dials, I presume the greater the chances to match the mains.

    In the end, it's all hit and miss. Your main speakers may be optimally positioned but your subwoofer is not. Or vice versa. And finding the optimal location for main speakers and subwoofer can be rather painstaking and sometimes seem impossible. Really, it's more art than science. But if the planets are in alignment and one is able to cross into the promised land where the bass is astonishly "quick", tight, deep, and well-defined and flat out musical, and merges beautifully with the mains, this alone will set a given playback system apart from most any other. Then again, with the right main full-range speakers and optmal placement, this same fabulously musical bass can also be achieved without a subwoofer at least down to 23Hz or so - depending on the main's range.

    Hopefully, some of the bullet items I mentioned above can minimize some of the guesswork and pain associated with this most rewarding art.
    Jock

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  28. #28
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    If you want subs for ultra-fast subs, you definitely want the Servo-sub kit from GR-Research:

    http://gr-research.com/servosubkit3.aspx

    Watch the YouTube video about them here.
    https://youtu.be/1Q3QQPO7y04

    Danny Richie of GR-Research is one of the pre-eminent loudspeaker designers in the USA and has won multiple awards from The Absolute Sound, "Best Speaker Regardless of Price", Best Sound at RMAF, etc. He has also designed and consulted for many loudspeaker companies.

  29. #29

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Folks talk "fast subs" = integration, which is part of the equation. Essentially, fast is how quickly the driver responds and equally important, how quickly can it settle back down to rest, that IME is what dictates what we perceive as fast. Unfortunately if the sub is not integrated well and if the room is not properly treated that speed is often masked by room modes and long decay.

    That said IME I've owned quite a few brand subs (Martin Logan, Rel, M&K, etc.) and I like JLA Fathom subwoofers. The sealed cabinet not only avoids the second output source via a port but also helps control the driver coupled with a high output amplifier. Ports and passive radiators are great - when you have enough room real estate to digest the additional output sources, but for most of us, the bass management becomes a mess. Also, while one sub is better than none, more subs are better. I currently employ a JLA QuaD which allows me great control over room modes.

    Also, some folks say, "You shouldn't be able to hear your subs", well yes and no. You shouldn't be able to localize the bass emitted from the sub(s), but you certainly should hear the benefits via more even, more profound output (when the music calls for it) and a better sense of space and ease. Once you go subs integrated well, you won't go back! Enjoy!
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  30. #30
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post


    When I said Wilson and Magico -- out of all the subs I've had and had many hours/days experience with. Those have integrated best with the most systems/rooms. Technically - they might measure as the slowest subs out there. Don't care. Ears will tell you that they work the best.
    yes, the sub wants to be done by the main speaker manufacture, drriven by the same amp as the main speaker. everything else is a missmatch

  31. #31
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    I don't agree

    Yes - the main speaker manufacture might want to do a sub but - MOST don't invest the time and money in developing one unless its in the mega $$$$ category. Like $200,000 plus for the system.

    Other subs can make a much much less costly speaker get to the same level as the most expensive systems.

    have you ever listened to premium subs? with multiple main speakers? cause they work amazing well.
    Jock

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

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  32. #32
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    multiple main speakers? no i never did.

    sure you can have luck and a sub will sound good with some speaker.
    if you want it really right, it should be done as a whole....the speaker manufactor does the sub.

    yes , i had subs and seen many subs in friends systems and eventually they all went off

  33. #33
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    ah i just see, you have magico with magico subs well done

  34. #34

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    I disagree. Good subs will work with any speaker, it's about placement and setup. I've heard Vivids, Magicos and Wilson XLFs with JLA Fathoms and all sounded fabulous, I've heard Rockport Arrakis with Rels sound equally great, there is no condition to use the same brand. Now, might there be a synergy added benefit? Possibly but doubtful IMO.
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  35. #35

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Properly placed and tuned, the appropriate REL model can perform equal if not better than any sub available.
    Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers with REL T 7i sub, Luxman D06u CDP, Magnum Dynalab XM tuner, Conrad Johnson ET5 pre, Pass Labs X 250.5 amp, Michael Green clamp rack, Mapleshade brass footers, Shunyata Research PLC and wire.

  36. #36

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Never had a problem integrating JL Audio Fathoms. First one and then a second for a stereo pair. Dialing two in to the room was much trickier. I used a Bryston 10B-SUB crossover to alleviate the two way Sonus Faber Guarneri Mementos of the lowest octave that they struggled to reproduce. The crossover was between the amp and preamp so neither the amps nor the speakers saw anything below 65Hz (rolled off with 12dB per octave slope). Made the speakers sound more coherent overall with a very noticeable improvement in the midrange. Bass? Like they say in Brooklyn, "FUGGEDABOUTIT" Oh and the tube amp was also very happy with not doing the heavy work. The Fathoms were "fast" enough to keep up with the two way monitors. I would say the subs blended in a good 95-98% of the way into "seamless" integration.

    All the well setup system I have ever heard with REL subs were also fantastic with no audible clues there were subs but the deep and articulate bass. I would not hesitate to go with REL either.

  37. #37

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by thedudeabides View Post
    Properly placed and tuned, the appropriate REL model can perform equal if not better than any sub available.
    The newer Rel subs are quite good but, better than any sub? Validated how? Compared to JL Audio? Magico? Wilson?
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  38. #38
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    The tall Zu sub would be my first choice and is designed with high efficiency speakers. No need to pay more than that.
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  39. #39

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by sb6 View Post
    The newer Rel subs are quite good but, better than any sub? Validated how? Compared to JL Audio? Magico? Wilson?
    Hi sb,

    I believe we have traded comments on the MLOC site. I should have been more succinct. REL, like some manufacturers, offer product that excels in the cost / performance ratio.
    Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers with REL T 7i sub, Luxman D06u CDP, Magnum Dynalab XM tuner, Conrad Johnson ET5 pre, Pass Labs X 250.5 amp, Michael Green clamp rack, Mapleshade brass footers, Shunyata Research PLC and wire.

  40. #40
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    I am finally convinced a properly integrated subwoofer is essential for all but a few very high end speakers having separate subwoofer towers.

    In 2019 I bought a JL Audio F212v2 and the CR-1 crossover. JL Audio T/S helped me with positioning and setting the phase degree for my room. The subwoofer bass sounds like it's an integral part of my stereo system.

    I'm now listening to music with a palpable low end that blends completely with the stereo speakers. And because my stereo amp has been relieved of supporting bass, the mids and highs from my stereo speakers has appreciable improved
    ________________________________
    Len
    Acoustic Frontiers Acoustic Design media room; Raidho D3; Boulder 1160; JL Audio F212v2; EMM Labs DV2; EMM Labs XDS1v2 (transport); JL Audio CR-1; Ansuz Mainz8 D-TC; Solidtech ROS; Nordost & Ansuz cabling & resonance control.
    http://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5013

  41. #41

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by LenWhite View Post
    I am finally convinced a properly integrated subwoofer is essential for all but a few very high end speakers having separate subwoofer towers.

    In 2019 I bought a JL Audio F212v2 and the CR-1 crossover. JL Audio T/S helped me with positioning and setting the phase degree for my room. The subwoofer bass sounds like it's an integral part of my stereo system.

    I'm now listening to music with a palpable low end that blends completely with the stereo speakers. And because my stereo amp has been relieved of supporting bass, the mids and highs from my stereo speakers has appreciable improved
    I can relate. I accomplished the same results with a stereo pair of F112's and a Bryston crossover back in the day as the CR-1 was not available then. It is a great way to go.

  42. #42
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    In the Magnepan forums the subs that get talked about a lot are the Rythmik subs and their direct servo tech. Speed is a very important consideration with Maggie's. I can attest to them. Very nice subs and because how the sell direct, etc., not bad priced.
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  43. #43

    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by LenWhite View Post
    I am finally convinced a properly integrated subwoofer is essential for all but a few very high end speakers having separate subwoofer towers.

    In 2019 I bought a JL Audio F212v2 and the CR-1 crossover. JL Audio T/S helped me with positioning and setting the phase degree for my room. The subwoofer bass sounds like it's an integral part of my stereo system.

    I'm now listening to music with a palpable low end that blends completely with the stereo speakers. And because my stereo amp has been relieved of supporting bass, the mids and highs from my stereo speakers has appreciable improved
    Quote Originally Posted by LenWhite View Post
    I am finally convinced a properly integrated subwoofer is essential for all but a few very high end speakers having separate subwoofer towers.

    In 2019 I bought a JL Audio F212v2 and the CR-1 crossover. JL Audio T/S helped me with positioning and setting the phase degree for my room. The subwoofer bass sounds like it's an integral part of my stereo system.

    I'm now listening to music with a palpable low end that blends completely with the stereo speakers. And because my stereo amp has been relieved of supporting bass, the mids and highs from my stereo speakers has appreciable improved
    This very similar to how I have mine setup. I am crossed over at 70Hz with 2 F212's and a CR-1.

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

  44. #44
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    Re: Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

    my speakers have time delay bass built into the dsp xover, it's also switchable on/off. Now the marketing lit says this delay can be equivalent to moving the mains or woofers or whatever up to 27' back! I will say it'll take better ears than mine to notice the difference. When I turn to toggle the delay on and off the difference to my ears is a slight change in volume? maybe a better or bigger room, trained ears would notice a more dramatic change idk but there's my .02
    KEF Blade, Mc-611's, C49 rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner. Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller VA Beethoven's, Hegel h360.

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Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

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