Avalon Acoustics - Are they still relevant/competitive ?

[mdp632]

We don't hear or read much about this brand anymore. Especially in North America.

It looks they are still in business and releasing new models.

However, they don't have the dealer network and marketing behind them like Magico and Wilson as an example.

That doesn't mean that Avalon doesn't make a good product.

I also hear that Avalon has a much larger presence and does quite well in the Asian market.

Thoughts or comments?

[Kuoppis]

Wasn’t the late Charlie Hansen of Ayre-fame one of the founders?


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[mdp632]

Wasn’t the late Charlie Hansen of Ayre-fame one of the founders?


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That I'm not sure of. Although both companies are from Colorado so, perhaps that is the connection.

[Mike]

A dealer friend in Canada brought them in. Said they were trying to rekindle an old flame. After break in, they got rid of them all. Said they were not great.

They reached out to me a few weeks ago and were quite determined to make me a dealer. I politely told them “no thanks”.

To be fair, I haven’t given them much of a listen lately.

[mdp632]

A dealer friend in Canada brought them in. Said they were trying to rekindle an old flame. After break in, they got rid of them all. Said they were not great.

They reached out to me a few weeks ago and were quite determined to make me a dealer. I politely told them “no thanks”.

To be fair, I haven’t given them much of a listen lately.

Thanks Mike. Yes, it seems that the competition at Avalon's price points are far greater than it was years ago.

Magico specifically, seems to have every price point covered in the high end dynamic driver loudspeaker market now with the introduction of the A series.

I heard the Saga once a few years ago at relatively local dealer who carried Avalon along with Magico.

I remember been blow away by the Avalon at that time.

Building a six figure speaker (Avalon Saga MSRP) out of wood in 2019 I don't think is appealing. Especially, when the competition is using aluminum and now carbon fiber.

Needless to say I haven't been there in years but, a quick look on that dealer's website and Nope; no more Avalons.

[UltraFast69]

Despite all that, I did like their use of Accuton drivers


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[Spock]

Building a six figure speaker (Avalon Saga MSRP) out of wood in 2019 I don't think is appealing. Especially, when the competition is using aluminum and now carbon fiber.

I don't see that wood can be a problem. Many of the speakers that I heard made with strange materials also sounded ... strange!
The Saga seems to sound pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sCpRE5uHSA

But, as always, the Avalon must be very ugly because I always see them with their "burka"

[mdp632]

I don't see that wood can be a problem. Many of the speakers that I heard made with strange materials also sounded ... strange!
The Saga seems to sound pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sCpRE5uHSA

But, as always, the Avalon must be very ugly because I always see them with their "burka"

Sure, they sound good. A speaker is the sum of all their parts that make up the sound.

But, I was just referring to their competitors that place at similar MSRP are using more advance cabinet materials.

You can only make wood so strong etc...

I'm not a Magico owner nor fanboy but, they started out with wood, then aluminum and now on the high end M series Carbon Fiber.

The stiffer the cabinet for the drivers the better.

Hell there is even a company that makes speakers out of granite. But, I can't recall their name.

[bart]

Sure, they sound good. A speaker is the sum of all their parts that make up the sound.

But, I was just referring to their competitors that place at similar MSRP are using more advance cabinet materials.

You can only make wood so strong etc...

I'm not a Magico owner nor fanboy but, they started out with wood, then aluminum and now on the high end M series Carbon Fiber.

The stiffer the cabinet for the drivers the better.

Hell there is even a company that makes speakers out of granite. But, I can't recall their name.

While the speakers in our main system aren't made out of wood, there are modern speaker manufacturers that use wood, like Boenicke.
Some of their transducers sound mighty fine to my ears.
I wouldn't discard wood as speaker material.

[Puma Cat]

Sure, they sound good. A speaker is the sum of all their parts that make up the sound.

But, I was just referring to their competitors that place at similar MSRP are using more advance cabinet materials.

You can only make wood so strong etc...

I'm not a Magico owner nor fanboy but, they started out with wood, then aluminum and now on the high end M series Carbon Fiber.

The stiffer the cabinet for the drivers the better.

Hell there is even a company that makes speakers out of granite. But, I can't recall their name.

There are no bad materials, only bad applications of materials.

[SCAudiophile]

While the speakers in our main system aren't made out of wood, there are modern speaker manufacturers that use wood, like Boenicke.
Some of their transducers sound mighty fine to my ears.
I wouldn't discard wood as speaker material.

+1 Boenicke speakers sounded incredible to me and have great value for the money. They easily kicked the ass of MANY fan favorite,
sicophant-followed high priced favorites I heard in Munich.

Don't ever discount wood as a material, only those who don't know what the frack they are doing with it .

Same statement for various types of veneers and stone.

Daedalus (Lou): knows that he is doing with high-quality, beautifully curated wood...there's another for the list!

[AJ Soundfield]

started out with wood, then aluminum and now on the high end M series Carbon Fiber.

The stiffer the cabinet for the drivers the better.

You have confused advertising/marketing with engineering science.

Nevermind it's "all subjective", whereas cabinet materials are objective facts. If it's the former, then the only thing that matters is how Avalons, or ______, sounds to you. Not materials, price, looks, popularity, street cred, etc, etc....right??
Maybe give them a listen and see...excuse me, hear what they can do.

cheers,

AJ

[Mike]

I remember this same conversation around paper drivers Vs new materials.

Thank God no one is longing for the days of metal dome tweeters!


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[Kuoppis]

Based on my understanding Beryllium is a metal. Aren’t companies like Magico, Focal and TAD still propagating Beryllium tweeters? Also, Giya use other metal and Harbeth aluminum tweeters.

Guess we’re not completely over that trend yet...


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[AJ Soundfield]

Properties like stiffness which can be good for things that you want radiating sound, like drivers, may not be what you want for things that you don't want radiating sound. Like cabinets. Engineering 101, the opposite of Marketing 101.
If sound is ones number 1 priority, I'd suggest giving Avalons or _____ or Zu, etc a listen.
If it's flavor of the minute popularity, street cred, etc, etc., maybe do a poll.

cheers,

AJ

[SCAudiophile]

Based on my understanding Beryllium is a metal. Aren’t companies like Magico, Focal and TAD still propagating Beryllium tweeters? Also, Giya use other metal and Harbeth aluminum tweeters.

Guess we’re not completely over that trend yet...


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TAD is definitely still using Beryllium in their concentric driver for the R1 MK2 & MK3 and the CR-1. Don't know about the line-up below the CR-1 but the top speakers
still employ TAD's one of a kind vapor-deposition technology to leverage beryllium with harsh sonic side effects of ways of constructing beryllium drivers. Yes, it is a metal
and we are definitely not over the trend. Properly matched cable and power for the TAD R1 MK2 when I had them never exposed any harshness in that driver at all. To me,
Be and other metals are no different than use of diamond or other super-hard substances,....if you design and build with it properly, you'll get good results, perhaps an overly
simplistic viewpoint on my part...

[AJ Soundfield]

Don't ever discount wood as a material, only those who don't know what the frack they are doing with it .

Same statement for various types of veneers and stone.

One of the best sounding systems I've heard, local club member, uses no cabinet at all ! Drivers are pretty much free air.
A bit like MBL.

[SCAudiophile]

One of the best sounding systems I've heard, local club member, uses no cabinet at all ! Drivers are pretty much free air.
A bit like MBL.

Can definitely believe that...open baffle, no cabinet/infinite cabinet boundary is a well known way, when done right, to build a great speaker!

[Mike]

Based on my understanding Beryllium is a metal. Aren’t companies like Magico, Focal and TAD still propagating Beryllium tweeters? Also, Giya use other metal and Harbeth aluminum tweeters.

Guess we’re not completely over that trend yet...


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Yes. Was thinking of some really bad inverted titanium-dome tweeters of the 90’s.

[SCAudiophile]

Yes. Was thinking of some really bad inverted titanium-dome tweeters of the 90’s.

Be Afraid....be very afraid !

[mdp632]

Be Afraid....be very afraid !

Ah that Wilson Focal tweeter

I didn't want the thread to turn into another materials war on speaker design.

I guess as AJ stated I can't discount the product because it uses wood over aluminum.

Likewise, I remember years ago hearing a Wilson for the first and it was with that metal tweeter.

I remember leaving the demo and saying to myself what the hell do people see this in this brand, why does it cost so much etc? How can these speakers get all this praise world wide etc. I don't get it.

I chalked it up to crappy drivers in a really inert cabinet.

So, again Audio is the some of all parts.

I'll give a modern Avalon a listen again ; It won't hurt

[AJ Soundfield]

I'll give a modern Avalon a listen again ; It won't hurt

Unless you fell on top of one. That might hurt!!

[SCAudiophile]

Ah that Wilson Focal tweeter

I didn't want the thread to turn into another materials war on speaker design.

I guess as AJ stated I can't discount the product because it uses wood over aluminum.

Likewise, I remember years ago hearing a Wilson for the first and it was with that metal tweeter.

I remember leaving the demo and saying to myself what the hell do people see this in this brand, why does it cost so much etc? How can these speakers get all this praise world wide etc. I don't get it.

I chalked it up to crappy drivers in a really inert cabinet.

So, again Audio is the some of all parts.

I'll give a modern Avalon a listen again ; It won't hurt

Pointing out again, that was joke on my part....AJ's last post with Tesseracts is hilarious! Definitely don't want to land on that speaker!

All kidding aside a friend in Atlanta has the Isis and loves them....another friend in NJ who had Isis for a few years and loved them upgraded
to the Avalon Saga (first North American customer to receive pair); he's driving them with the top LAMM mono-blocks and told me they are
fantastic. They however as noted, have a lot more competition nowadays in their price ranges so it's really up to buyers to balance budget,
listening tastes, etc...and find the product that is best for them regardless what materials are involved.

As an aside, wood speakers: add Volti Audio to the list,...another manufacturer who knows how to work with wood.

Agree that a great speaker is about the sum of its parts and quality of design, construction,...

[puroagave]

I remember this same conversation around paper drivers Vs new materials.

Thank God no one is longing for the days of metal dome tweeters!


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whats beryllium then?

[puroagave]

Wasn’t the late Charlie Hansen of Ayre-fame one of the founders?


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He was. I attended the CES when he debuted the Ascent, he was showing with Jeff Rowland. It was unique at the time with 6 inch thick front baffles and bank vault-like enclosures (albeit, HDF) that were soon to be copied by everyone (Paul Hales, Eggleston, et al). They also used Eton drivers with nomex honeycomb cones which were SOTA at the time. Charlie didn't found Ayre for a few years yet.

[Puma Cat]

Ah that Wilson Focal tweeter

I didn't want the thread to turn into another materials war on speaker design.

I guess as AJ stated I can't discount the product because it uses wood over aluminum.

Likewise, I remember years ago hearing a Wilson for the first and it was with that metal tweeter.

I remember leaving the demo and saying to myself what the hell do people see this in this brand, why does it cost so much etc? How can these speakers get all this praise world wide etc. I don't get it.

I chalked it up to crappy drivers in a really inert cabinet.

Right there with ya, on that one! I remember my local B&M dealer had a large room at a local audio show some years ago and had Alexandria X-2s with that inverted dome Focal tweeter set up with Spectral gear. Yeesh!!! Drove me out of the room in less than 5 minutes.

I literally went across the hall to the MBL room, which was like a breath of fresh air. Ahh...

[Puma Cat]

Agree that a great speaker is about the sum of its parts and quality of design, construction,...

Then, there's um...Harbeth.

Yours truly's 30.2s...

[SCAudiophile]

Then, there's um...Harbeth.

Yours truly's 30.2s...

Beautiful setup...love all the CJ gear too!!!

[Puma Cat]

Beautiful setup...love all the CJ gear too!!!

Thanks, Mark. I love the C-J gear, too.

[Kuoppis]

Then, there's um...Harbeth.

Yours truly's 30.2s...

Love my 30.2 Anniversaries in the summerhouse!




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[XV-1]

Yes, they absolutely are.

I heard the Avalon Saga's at the HK hifi show in 2017 and 2018. They were the best sound of any system or speaker at the show.
Give me these over a Wilson Alexx or Magico M6 if you had the room for the speakers to breath.

Bass depth to die for, a coherence and ease of listening that was awesome. This was with a Project Signature 12 front end - It would only get better with a better source. build quality was to die for.

[Elberoth]

Avalons have never been made of wood. They have always been made from MDF - like 99% of speakers.

IMO there are several problems with the brand.

1. Too long product life cycles. There are products in their lineup that are 15+ years old. That is too long. There is 'long' lifecycle and 'too long' - Avalon is the latter.

2. Cost. They simply cost too much. There is the saying that the second hand market verifies the real value of the product. Avalons commonly trade at 25% of MSRP.

3. Various quality problems throughout the years. Many Avalon speakers suffered veneer quality problems (I have personally seen two Isis pairs that started showing serious veneer quality issues in their 3rd or 4th year of ownership - that is 2 out of 3 (!) pairs I have seen; talk about 66% failure rate !). Then there has been that infameous 'black goo dropping from my speaker via the bass reflex port' problem, which was the rubber / dampening compound used deteriorating and turning into liquid and dripping from a speaker.

That is too bad IMO, as I used to have the Avalon Eidolon Vision back in 2005 and though they were sounding great (when driven by tube amps).

[mdp632]

Avalons have never been made of wood. They have always been made from MDF - like 99% of speakers.

IMO there are several problems with the brand.

1. Too long product life cycles. There are products in their lineup that are 15+ years old. That is too long. There is 'long' lifecycle and 'too long' - Avalon is the latter.

2. Cost. They simply cost too much. There is the saying that the second hand market verifies the real value of the product. Avalons commonly trade at 25% of MSRP.

3. Various quality problems throughout the years. Many Avalon speakers suffered veneer quality problems (I have personally seen two Isis pairs that started showing serious veneer quality issues in their 3rd or 4th year of ownership - that is 2 out of 3 (!) pairs I have seen; talk about 66% failure rate !). Then there has been that infameous 'black goo dropping from my speaker via the bass reflex port' problem, which was the rubber / dampening compound used deteriorating and turning into liquid and dripping from a speaker.

That is too bad IMO, as I used to have the Avalon Eidolon Vision back in 2005 and though they were sounding great (when driven by tube amps).

Point 2 is very important to me at least. Regarding the trade in or used market. Very hard to sell a product that nobody wants.

My curiosity is of this new line called their Precision Monitor series.

Specially, I heard Keith O. Johnson of Reference Recordings fame amongst others in the industry.

Has had a hand in some design of them as well as the Avalon Aurora (new speaker).


But, in the states; not much chatter about Avalon even though they are a domestic brand.

They seem more popular in Asia; as of one of the members mentioned above.

[gds7368]

I have extensive time listening to a friend’s Avalon Isis speakers coupled with high-end Spectral/MIT gear. It is accurate and non-fatiguing, but also exceedingly boring. Nothing fun about that speaker, and very limited bass for the price. Almost sounds like a bookshelf compared to other speakers its size (listening space was custom built for music with tube traps, etc). BTW no subwoofer is used.

[Spock]

I have extensive time listening to a friend’s Avalon Isis speakers coupled with high-end Spectral/MIT gear. It is accurate and non-fatiguing, but also exceedingly boring. Nothing fun about that speaker, and very limited bass for the price. Almost sounds like a bookshelf compared to other speakers its size (listening space was custom built for music with tube traps, etc). BTW no subwoofer is used.

Hummm !!
It sounds to me like excessive room treatment
Not unusual

[gds7368]

Hummm !!
It sounds to me like excessive room treatment
Not unusual

He moved the same system to another house (now without the room treatments) and it sounds the same

[Spock]

He moved the same system to another house (now without the room treatments) and it sounds the same

Seriously? No.
Many audiophiles swear that the most important component is the room.
How can the system play the same way in two different rooms, one with and the other without room treatment?

[gds7368]

I mean that the lifeless sonic signature continues in both rooms, not that it sounds identical in both rooms. It doesn’t play notes wrong - there’s no exaggerated mid-bass hump, and no fatiguing tweeter - just not interestingly. Maybe it would benefit from a tube somewhere or a subwoofer or something.

I know “Spectral/Avalon/MIT” has been supported in the audio community for quite a while. My advice would be for anyone considering Avalon speakers to hear it in their home before, say, buying used on Audiogon (even if at a good price). Otherwise could continue the audio ownership turnstile. Obviously the owner likes his system, which is good for him!

I’m not trying to be offensive, and I’m not interested in arguing, but I’ve heard a well thought out system with Avalon speakers for about ten years now and that’s the topic of the thread. Just sharing my $0.02.

[Ctsooner]

First off, yes Charlie started the company. When he was there, they made one of the best speakers money could buy. They were always expensive, but man did they sound great to most of us. Charlie sold to Patel, but the brand became pretty stale over time.

A few years ago, they decided to stop advertising their speakers and were dropped by the largest adn most prestiges stores in the US. This is why they won't be picked up by top stores anymore. It makes no sense. The last pair I hear were the Times at JS Audio. I think that was about 2 years ago as they were selling them at cost to get rid of them. I wasn't impressed at all. My Vandersteen Quatro's sounded better to my ears. I'm not a Wilson fan as they lack detail to me, but I enjoyed their sound in the same room with the same gear (Dan D's stuff).

I heard that they were big in Asia as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, but not sure.

I agree 100% with gds. You should listen to any speaker at those prices before getting them. I've never been a Spectral fan as they are sterile for me no matter what the system. It's all subjective, so there's that too, lol.