What has the most audible impact in a digital HI-Fi set up after speakers, amps and DAC?

[applecross]

Assume you have already chosen your speakers, amp, pre-amp, and DAC, what other items have the most audible impact on how your system performs?
I am purely considering a digital system (sorry analog folks).

• External USB re-clockers (e.g. MUTEC MC3+)
• Interconnects
• Speaker cables
• Power cords
• Power purifiers (e.g. Audioquest Niagara 1200)
• Pre-amp buffers
• Music streamer
• Network switches
• Acoustic isolation
• Vibration dampening kits
• DSP (e.g. miniDSP SHD Studio)

How would you rank these?

I am trying to decide where to upgrade and I cannot make my mind up.
Please don't just say buy better basic gear . The whole point here is to discuss ancillaries.

[GSOphile]

Start with your power. Whole home surge protector, a couple of dedicated lines (10g, same wire length from panel), and audio grade outlets. Then good quality power cords and power distributor/conditioner.

[joeinid]

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Start with your power. Whole home surge protector, a couple of dedicated lines (10g, same wire length from panel), and audio grade outlets. Then good quality power cords and power distributor/conditioner.

[Mikado463]

applesauce, once you have your clean power to your room without question the room itself comes next, if that's what you mean by acoustic isolation

[nicoff]

Assume you have already chosen your speakers, amp, pre-amp, and DAC, what other items have the most audible impact on how your system performs?
I am purely considering a digital system (sorry analog folks).

• External USB re-clockers (e.g. MUTEC MC3+)
• Interconnects
• Speaker cables
• Power cords
• Power purifiers (e.g. Audioquest Niagara 1200)
• Pre-amp buffers
• Music streamer
• Network switches
• Acoustic isolation
• Vibration dampening kits
• DSP (e.g. miniDSP SHD Studio)

How would you rank these?

I am trying to decide where to upgrade and I cannot make my mind up.
Please don't just say buy better basic gear . The whole point here is to discuss ancillaries.

Here is an article that looks into many of the factors that you mention and attempts to objectively evaluate how much they affect the sound.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/0...-does.html?m=0

Based on that article, what makes the most difference are the speakers and the room. For a digital system the article suggests that 80% of the money be allocated to those two factors.

I also agree that power is very important and should be considered part of the room expense. In my case, adding separate circuits for my amps eliminated room light flickering when playing loud music.

[Mike Lavigne]

by far your server. in my case adding (1) the SGM Extreme server caused a quantum leap in performance. it was the 800 pound gorilla in the room. this server also uses PCIe drives for my files and uses Roon for Tidal and Quboz. i already had a good server, this step up above that was huge. it was not cheap.

next (2) was adding fiber optic interfaces replacing copper Ethernet and (3) a fibre optic interface called Pro USB for my dac to server which included a USB cable. next was the USB cable itself, i replaced a modestly priced USB with (4) a Gobel LaCorde USB which was a big step up.

beyond that everything matters, i do have top level resonance control, and grounding.

click on the link to my system page below and you can see the Extreme server in my system description.

btw; i'm an analog guy who takes his digital way too seriously. i'm all in for digital.

[applecross]

Start with your power. Whole home surge protector, a couple of dedicated lines (10g, same wire length from panel), and audio grade outlets. Then good quality power cords and power distributor/conditioner.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I live in a rented flat in Czech Republic so dedicated lines, surge protectors are out of the questions.

I can maybe change the outlets.

What I can definitely do is get power cords and distributor/conditioner. After a bit of searching I have my mind set on Puritan Audio PS106 (maybe the DC version) and their cords (which seem sensibly priced). Cannot post links yet because I am a new member. Initially I was thinking of an Audioquest Niagara 1200 and some Acrolink Acrolink 7n-4030se cords with Oyaide connectors, but they are too expensive.

Do you have any brand or products in mind?

[applecross]

applesauce, once you have your clean power to your room without question the room itself comes next, if that's what you mean by acoustic isolation

Here is an article that looks into many of the factors that you mention and attempts to objectively evaluate how much they affect the sound.

Based on that article, what makes the most difference are the speakers and the room. For a digital system the article suggests that 80% of the money be allocated to those two factors.

I also agree that power is very important and should be considered part of the room expense. In my case, adding separate circuits for my amps eliminated room light flickering when playing loud music.

There seems to be consensus on power and room treatment. Thanks for the archimago article!

The new room where I will set up the system has carpet floors, which is a plus. I will try to get some diffusers and bass traps. I like the GIK acoustics ones as they easily double as room decor.
Perhaps measuring the room with REW first to understand exactly what things need to be addressed?

I already invested in the speakers, a bit of an impulse buy TBH. I have a pair of Russel K Red 120s.

[applecross]

by far your server. in my case adding (1) the SGM Extreme server caused a quantum leap in performance. it was the 800 pound gorilla in the room. this server also uses PCIe drives for my files and uses Roon for Tidal and Quboz. i already had a good server, this step up above that was huge. it was not cheap.

next (2) was adding fiber optic interfaces replacing copper Ethernet and (3) a fibre optic interface called Pro USB for my dac to server which included a USB cable. next was the USB cable itself, i replaced a modestly priced USB with (4) a Gobel LaCorde USB which was a big step up.

beyond that everything matters, i do have top level resonance control, and grounding.

click on the link to my system page below and you can see the Extreme server in my system description.

btw; i'm an analog guy who takes his digital way too seriously. i'm all in for digital.

I have an RME ADI2 DAC and the plan for streaming is to pair it with a Sonore Ultrarendu streamer, to use as an Roon endpoint. Perhaps the new Primare NP5 when it becomes Roon certified. I do not have a large FLAC collection now as I was limited by a terrible IPS.
However I will get a decent cable connection soon so that might as well change. Setting up a dedicated NAS is a bit out of scope for me now. Bu thanks for sharing your experience.

What drives me mad sometimes with Roon+Tidal is that some albums disappear and/or are just not there in the first place.

[applecross]

by far your server. in my case adding (1) the SGM Extreme server caused a quantum leap in performance. it was the 800 pound gorilla in the room. this server also uses PCIe drives for my files and uses Roon for Tidal and Quboz. i already had a good server, this step up above that was huge. it was not cheap.

next (2) was adding fiber optic interfaces replacing copper Ethernet and (3) a fibre optic interface called Pro USB for my dac to server which included a USB cable. next was the USB cable itself, i replaced a modestly priced USB with (4) a Gobel LaCorde USB which was a big step up.

beyond that everything matters, i do have top level resonance control, and grounding.

click on the link to my system page below and you can see the Extreme server in my system description.

btw; i'm an analog guy who takes his digital way too seriously. i'm all in for digital.

Sweet Jesus Mike, I just saw your room setup! Very interesting article on Positive Feedback. Life goal for me. Starting at 30 years old to get into Hi-fi lol.

[Randy Myers]

Yea Mike is one of many members on the forum who have insane level of gear. I am certainly not one of them.

I highly recommend the AudioQuest power conditioner. I use a Niagara 1000 (the predecessor of the 1200). It does a great job. Quality USB cables are very recommended. I use a pair of AudioQuest Coffee cables. I also recommend a USB reclocker. I use what I consider one of the best, a Wyred 4 Sound Recovery, which appears to be on sale for only $149 right now. https://www.wyred4sound.com/products...rters/recovery

[Projectman]

This chart seems to fly in the phase of many of the opinions on this forum. Thoughts?

taken from the post above - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/0...-does.html?m=0

[bart]

This chart seems to fly in the phase of many of the opinions on this forum. Thoughts?

taken from the post above - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/0...-does.html?m=0

Room and speakers are the most important, but I'd give more importance to amps, DAC, cables and power.

[Randy Myers]

The OP also stated after pre, Amp, speakers, and DAC.

Also, opinions vary... all are important... source (server/computer), software, DAC are all rather important.

[bart]

The OP also stated after pre, Amp, speakers, and DAC.

Also, opinions vary... all are important... source (server/computer), software, DAC are all rather important.

Yes, I know Randy, but he wanted thoughts about the chart.

Regarding his original question: room doesn't come after pre, amp, DAC for me.
It comes right behind speakers.

[Mikado463]

Yes, I know Randy, but he wanted thoughts about the chart.

Regarding his original question: room doesn't come after pre, amp, DAC for me.
It comes right behind speakers.

exactly right, argue against that logic and one knows next to nothing about quality audio ........

[Andik777]

In my humble opinion, after having an armed team (without importing the value) in the first place is the acoustics of the room, then Power purifiers, power cables, interconnection, USB, ethernet cable, speaker cables.

[AJ Soundfield]

This chart seems to fly in the phase of many of the opinions on this forum. Thoughts?

Many other opinions are out of phase, so in the end they sum to about zero. YMMV

[Projectman]

Speakers aren’t on your list...cool!

[AJ Soundfield]

Speakers aren’t on your list...cool!

Actually they are, in a more scientifically robust version than Archimagos.
Pumpkin.

[Al M.]

There seems to be consensus on power and room treatment.

Not quite. In my experience, also recently once again, power conditioners almost always reduce dynamic contrast, liveliness and energy of the presentation (reliably the latter two, mostly the first one as well). The only exceptions to this that I have heard are -- maybe -- the massive Tice Powerblock II from around 1990 and a not anymore produced Triangle Art conditioner.

Many people like the "black background", "cleanness", "calm" and "control" that power conditioners provide, but that is only partially due to actual benefits. Mostly it is just an expression of the reduction of dynamics, liveliness and energy. There have been discussions back and forth about this since I became an audiophile in 1990, and little has changed since then.

If you like the power conditioner sound, fine. But do NOT ever buy a power conditioner unheard, you may be disappointed. Fancy power cables are mostly problematic as well; usually best are cheap standard power cords for $ 10 or less. I have heard fancy, expensive power cords actually deteriorate the sound. Seriously, I'm not joking.

I do agree with others about room treatment. Room and speaker set-up, after purchasing all the components you mentioned, are of paramount importance.

[Swisstrips]

You don’t get the room right and spkr placement you’ll be chasing your tail and wasting money. Those two things are the foundation all the other items are built on


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[Puma Cat]

Not quite. In my experience, also recently once again, power conditioners almost always reduce dynamic contrast, liveliness and energy of the presentation (reliably the latter two, mostly the first one as well). The only exceptions to this that I have heard are -- maybe -- the massive Tice Powerblock II from around 1990 and a not anymore produced Triangle Art conditioner.

Shunyata Research power conditioners/distributors don't either, but I agree that most do. This is because most of them utilize chokes, coils, inductors or Balun transformers to provide noise suppression. The problem is these devices is that they significantly impact dynamic transient current delivery, aka DTCD, which is why they reduce dynamic contrasts.

Fancy power cables are mostly problematic as well; usually best are cheap standard power cords for $ 10 or less. I have heard fancy, expensive power cords actually deteriorate the sound. Seriously, I'm not joking.

Sorry, respectfully disagree. The vast majority of cheap standard power cords limit DTCD signficantly, and are also really, really noisy as shown at this link:
https://youtu.be/42hmSXhiblc

[MPW]

You don’t get the room right and spkr placement you’ll be chasing your tail and wasting money. Those two things are the foundation all the other items are built on


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I agree but would emphasize that seating position must be optimized first. Then speaker position and room treatment.

[GSOphile]

I agree with both of Puma Cat's points and would add that my Niagara 5000 has improved rather than detracted from dynamics.

[MPW]

I agree with both of Puma Cat's points and would add that my Niagara 5000 has improved rather than detracted from dynamics.

Totally agree on Niagara 5000. I have found it essential to my listening enjoyment. Very dynamic. I’m still playing with whether or not the amplifiers should be plugged into it or the wall and have found that the answer changes depending on the amp.

[cmarin]

I would add speaker set up to room and speakers. In my experience, a proper setup by an expert has made quite a significant change in performance.


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[Al M.]

Shunyata Research power conditioners/distributors don't either, but I agree that most do. This is because most of them utilize chokes, coils, inductors or Balun transformers to provide noise suppression. The problem is these devices is that they significantly impact dynamic transient current delivery, aka DTCD, which is why they reduce dynamic contrasts.



Sorry, respectfully disagree. The vast majority of cheap standard power cords limit DTCD signficantly, and are also really, really noisy as shown at this link:
https://youtu.be/42hmSXhiblc

Well, I didn't want to negatively mention any brand names, but since you brought up Shunyata:

A friend had a Shunyata Denali on loan, and since I really, really wanted to hear it, I traveled quite far to his house and back, in one day. He told me it would not be worth the trip, but I insisted. Unfortunately, he was right, and I was disappointed as well.The Denali clearly suppressed dynamics and took life out of the music. The system with it did have a nice midrange, but that was it. It was no comparison with my friend's Triangle Art conditioner. Well, I learned something that day.

Another friend bought a Denali, but while he liked the cleanness of sound, he found that it made the music anemic. When I visited him shortly after, he jokingly had put up a sign "Denali-free zone". He later sold the unit.

And yes, I stand by my remarks about power cords. On the positive side, I did hear some audiophile cords that were just different without necessarily being worse than stock cords. But were they actually better? Hmmm, hard for me to answer in the affirmative.

[kzhtoo]

I know you keep saying this all over the internet for a very long time, Al, regarding power conditioners and power cords. But my experience says otherwise, esp. regarding Shunyata products. I also know there are many, really..quite many, on this forum that would disagree with you. Something is really amiss here.

[Mikado463]

Ok, I'm laughing now ........ the thread (like so many others) has degraded to a freakin' cable debate !

To the Op ........ as you have hopefully seen the 'real' answer here (in so far as top of the list important) is speakers / room / listening position within said room. All the other shit follows .............

[Randy Myers]

Well I know my basic power strip (if you call $1000 a basic for a power strip) Niagara 1000 was a nice improvement. The way I figure it, I need to use some type of power strip since there are not enough plugs in the wall for all the components, so why would I not get something better then a Home Depot special. I cannot say it made a night and day difference, but it did improve the openness in the system, and it certainly did not hurt anything.

I also believe, like everything else in audio any more, you can go way over the top ...

[Speedskater]

Skipping over the obvious program source differences of vinyl, tape and digital.
a] in analog, it would be mis-set stage gains and background noise and interference. All of which are situation specific.
b] in digital it would be components not doing what you think they are doing. some DSP processors have a mind of their own. some units do unexpected sample rate conversions. PC's have been known to reset the audio setting.

[UltraFast69]

Well I know my basic power conditioner (if you call $1000 a basic for a power strip) Niagara 1000 was a nice improvement. The way I figure it, I need to use some type of power strip since there are not enough plugs in the wall for all the components, so why would I not get something better then a Home Depot special. I cannot say it made a night and day difference, but it did improve the openness in the system, and it certainly did not hurt anything.

I also believe, like everything else in audio any more, you can go way over the top ...

Centralized distribution is the path Nordost recommends especially if the AQ incorporates Star Grounding fed by your best cable it goes on from there...


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[AJ Soundfield]

and are also really, really noisy as shown at this link:
https://youtu.be/42hmSXhiblc

Lol. I see you enjoy science fiction as much as I enjoy comedy.
That was very funny, thanks!

[Al M.]

I know you keep saying this all over the internet for a very long time, Al, regarding power conditioners and power cords. But my experience says otherwise, esp. regarding Shunyata products.

Actually, I have been very vocal about power cords. About power conditioners, not so much. And I cannot remember ever having discussed Shunyata products, but if I did, please feel free to correct me. I know there are many Shunyata fans out there, and I did not want to ruffle any feathers. But after Puma Cat specifically replied to my post with Shunyata as a counter example, I decided not to hold back any longer. But hey, it's just my honest opinion and that of a few others.

I also know there are many, really..quite many, on this forum that would disagree with you. Something is really amiss here.

Which is why I said in an earlier post:
"If you like the power conditioner sound, fine."

Yet I also added in the next sentence:
"But do NOT ever buy a power conditioner unheard, you may be disappointed."

I believe this is sound advice. No matter how glowing a review may be, or recommendations by others on a forum. Yet if after auditioning the power conditioner in your own system you like it, by all means, go for it. It's a free world, and the only thing that matters is that you are happy with your system.

[Mike]

Everyone needs to experiment on their own and find what works best for their system and their environment. Power varies greatly from house to house, city to city.


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[Al M.]

Lol. I see you enjoy science fiction as much as I enjoy comedy.
That was very funny, thanks!

Yes, it was weird, to say the least. I don't understand what the guy is claiming to demonstrate, and what he is actually doing. I don't hear voices around my power lines, that's for sure . It almost seems he's activating an at-the-ready tape of garbled voices by making the plug-in contact.

[Al M.]

Everyone needs to experiment on their own and find what works best for their system and their environment. Power varies greatly from house to house, city to city.


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That is also true.

[AJ Soundfield]

I don't understand what the guy is claiming to demonstrate

Susceptibility.

Of all sorts. YMMV.
No ASA here of course. Still comedy gold.

[AJ Soundfield]

Everyone needs to experiment on their own and find what works best for their system and their environment. Power varies greatly from house to house, city to city.

Very true

[Spock]

… I did hear some audiophile cords that were just different without necessarily being worse than stock cords. But were they actually better? Hmmm, hard for me to answer in the affirmative.

My rule has always been this: If something changes the sound (like a power cord), even for the worse, I will look for another that can make the change for the better.

Or like Mike says

Everyone needs to experiment on their own and find what works best for their system and their environment.

[applecross]

Thanks all for the contributions.

I will first finetune the speaker set up in the new flat and then get a UMIK1 to take some measurements with REW. Based on those I will buy some GIK acoustic panels and quadratic diffusers and maybe Dirac Live.

All the rest will have to wait.

[roberto]

Hola,

Two things did a great change for good to my digital sound. The Lush USB cable and the UptoneAudio JS-2 linear power supply. These two devices did change for good, the quality sound from my E-32 Exasound DAC. The harmonic texture of the strings and the well overall balance with the size of the musical instruments and voices. The voices are absent of throat soreness. No more nasal sound also.
I do believe that the quality sound comes from all your system...right now my system is singing as never before. I am very happy of what I am getting. I do know that there are many better systems than what I have, but I am very happy of what I have. I am truly that happy.

Happy listening!

[Musicfirst]

In My experience:

Dac
Power Cords
Reclockers (this is a counter intuitive rabbit hole)
Source
Speakers Of choice
Amplification to exact the best of the speakers
Speaker Cables
Interconnects
Amp

[AJ Soundfield]

I will first finetune the speaker set up in the new flat and then get a UMIK1 to take some measurements with REW. Based on those...

I'm a 100% measurements/perceptual/science guy. 30+ years of correlating measurements and sound. My "view" of the data will be very different than yours just starting out, simply based on experience. That said, by far the best investment you could make, is first buying this (e)book.
You will (hopefully) learn there is a significant difference between a pressure mic (UMIK et al) and 2 ears/brain. Interpreting what those measurements tell you...and don't, is key.
My advice is to use your ears! Start with careful setup/placement, listen/measure/listen again, etc...before you buy a single speaker-room bandaid like "treatments", Dirac, etc, etc.
*If* you chose decent speakers, you should only need a touch of EQ below 400hz or so. Judiciously. Furnish your room, add decor, etc.
Most of the time that should be plenty enough "treatment", as you will find ears/science found in the book (the opposite of anecdote, belief, fashion, etc, etc.). It's only after that, or in extreme scenarios that further measures would be needed. YMMV

cheers,

AJ

[kiwi_1282001]

The room / loudspeaker interface is of the most importance.

The room in concert with speakers acts like a giant tone control, potentially boosting some audio frequencies by 10dB (or more) and attenuating others by the same amount.

"It is probably safe to say that 95% of the systems in audiophile homes are being degraded by a bad listening environment."

Reference: https://www.stereophile.com/asweseei...QrV6lJewdxT.99

[MPW]

I would argue that the room/listening position is the most important, followed by speaker position. I would use the measurement mic to look at frequency response below about 250 Hz and find the smoothest bass. Start 2’ from back wall and move away at 6” increments until you find the the listening position with the least variation in peaks and valleys. Really easy to do with REW. Then start confirming by listening and adjusting speakers. Bass response is the foundation. Have fun with the process! As always, YMMV.

[kiwi_1282001]

The location of your listening chair is pivotal. Indeed, calibrated mics combined with REW or other similar software can clearly reveal room issues.

The aim is smooth bass. Yes, one can and should use their ears too.

[Ritmo]

Everything matters.

[Speedskater]

Everything matters.

Everything that 'matters' matters. Everything else just clouds the issue and wastes time, money and forum space.