Need help to choose the right Lumin

[skbe]

Hi there music lovers and specialists,

I would like to have your advice to choose the right Lumin. I have been doing a lot of research these days. First I thought I need a T2 but basically, I think I need a Lumin D2 or a Lumin U1 mini. But here is the whole story.

My system is modest compared to what you might have but I think it's a decent system:
- Bowers & Wilkins CM8 powered by a Marantz PM6004 amp;
- A Marantz ND8006 (which I use as a DAC only because I really don't appreciate Heos);
- Headphones Sony Z1R powered by a Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone DAC-amp (please note that I will always use this Sony DAC for my headphones).

So now of course I need a Lumin to stream my music.
- 1st scenario I get a Lumin D2 and I use it as a DAC for my CM8 speakers instead of my Marantz ND8006. I will use its coaxial out to run my Sony headphone as a DAC-amp for my Sony headphones.
- 2nd scenario I get a Lumin U1 mini and I use it as a transporter to run my Marantz ND8006 and Sony headphone DAC-amp (most likely via USB for these 2 DACs).

So what's your advice here? A Lumin D2 or a Lumin U1 mini?

Some miscellaneous questions here to help you advise me the right device:
- In the Lumin U1 mini, is it possible to use the 2 USB outputs at the same time? Is there any interference when using 2 USB outputs? Is it preferable to use one USB output and one other output than USB eg. optical or coaxial?
- What is the most recent device? U1 mini or D2? Are the 2 devices well updated and well supported by Lumin?
- Is the Lumin D2 too small? What about the avoidance of electrical interferences in this device? D2 has the same size than U1 mini but it has also a DAC in it.
- Are the 2 devices equally quick to read HiRes music, connect and play Airplay music, connect and play NAS music?
- When the Lumin U1 mini is used to decode MQA music, is the signal that it will send to the Marantz ND8006 already in HiRes-like format and will the Marantz ND8006 handle it as a HiRes-like format (Marantz ND8006 does HiRes of course but not MQA)?

A big thank you for your help.
Best,
skbe

[Mike]

Lumin D2.


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[skbe]

Thank you very much Mike. But I would really appreciate some detailed answers to my questions if by chance you have the time to do so. The input of Peter would also be greatly appreciated. Best

[Mike]

Hi there music lovers and specialists,

I would like to have your advice to choose the right Lumin. I have been doing a lot of research these days. First I thought I need a T2 but basically, I think I need a Lumin D2 or a Lumin U1 mini. But here is the whole story.

My system is modest compared to what you might have but I think it's a decent system:
- Bowers & Wilkins CM8 powered by a Marantz PM6004 amp;
- A Marantz ND8006 (which I use as a DAC only because I really don't appreciate Heos);
- Headphones Sony Z1R powered by a Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone DAC-amp (please note that I will always use this Sony DAC for my headphones).

So now of course I need a Lumin to stream my music.
- 1st scenario I get a Lumin D2 and I use it as a DAC for my CM8 speakers instead of my Marantz ND8006. I will use its coaxial out to run my Sony headphone as a DAC-amp for my Sony headphones.
- 2nd scenario I get a Lumin U1 mini and I use it as a transporter to run my Marantz ND8006 and Sony headphone DAC-amp (most likely via USB for these 2 DACs).

So what's your advice here? A Lumin D2 or a Lumin U1 mini?

LUMIN D2

Some miscellaneous questions here to help you advise me the right device:
- In the Lumin U1 mini, is it possible to use the 2 USB outputs at the same time? Is there any interference when using 2 USB outputs? Is it preferable to use one USB output and one other output than USB eg. optical or coaxial?

Yes you can.

- What is the most recent device? U1 mini or D2? Are the 2 devices well updated and well supported by Lumin?

Both came out about the same time.

- Is the Lumin D2 too small? What about the avoidance of electrical interferences in this device? D2 has the same size than U1 mini but it has also a DAC in it.

Hey man, at this price point, trade off’s have to be made. The PSU is internal. Don’t worry about electrical interferences. Just don’t stack it on another power supply or power conditioner.

- Are the 2 devices equally quick to read HiRes music, connect and play Airplay music, connect and play NAS music?

Yes. Same speed. Fast.

- When the Lumin U1 mini is used to decode MQA music, is the signal that it will send to the Marantz ND8006 already in HiRes-like format and will the Marantz ND8006 handle it as a HiRes-like format (Marantz ND8006 does HiRes of course but not MQA)?

It will be 2/3 of full unfold MQA. In this scenario.

A big thank you for your help.
Best,
skbe

See my answers above. Are there no Lumin dealers in France?


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[skbe]

Yes indeed there are dealers in France

[skbe]

- When the Lumin U1 mini is used to decode MQA music, is the signal that it will send to the Marantz ND8006 already in HiRes-like format and will the Marantz ND8006 handle it as a HiRes-like format (Marantz ND8006 does HiRes of course but not MQA)?

It will be 2/3 of full unfold MQA. In this scenario.

Mike thanks again. Can you please be more precise about this.
What 2/3 of full unfold means?
We are in scenario 2 ie Lumin U1 mini as a transporter and Marantz ND8006 as a DAC. You say that full MQA decoding is better in D2 than U1 doing it and sending it already decoded and prepared to Marantz ND8006?

Thanks!

[Mike]

Mike thanks again. Can you please be more precise about this.
What 2/3 of full unfold means?
We are in scenario 2 ie Lumin U1 mini as a transporter and Marantz ND8006 as a DAC. You say that full MQA decoding is better in D2 than U1 doing it and sending it already decoded and prepared to Marantz ND8006?

Thanks!

You need to research MQA. Tidal does first unfold. Computer/Lumin does second unfold. Your Marantz will not do the third and final unfold. The Lumin D2 will.


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[skbe]

You need to research MQA. Tidal does first unfold. Computer/Lumin does second unfold. Your Marantz will not do the third and final unfold. The Lumin D2 will.


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Thanks. I think you answered the question undirectly. U1 mini does not do full unfold (ie the last third unfold in your example) of MQA ready to be read by the Marantz. You confirm?

[Mike]

Thanks. I think you answered the question undirectly. U1 mini does not do full unfold (ie the last third unfold in your example) of MQA ready to be read by the Marantz. You confirm?

Confirmed.


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[skbe]

Question to all. What is the importance of this 3rd unfold?
Does it really matter?

[skbe]

Well Lumin U1 mini it will be
Qobuz 1 - Tidal 0
France is the champion!!! (in soccer too!)

[Mike]

Question to all. What is the importance of this 3rd unfold?
Does it really matter?

It’s the most important. It takes you to the highest res of the MQA album.


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[Mike]

Well Lumin U1 mini it will be
Qobuz 1 - Tidal 0
France is the champion!!! (soccer too)

Ha! What’s soccer?


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[audio.bill]

skbe - For full MQA decoding the final unfold is DAC specific, so a device like the U1 Mini which is effectively a digital transport is unable to provide the final unfold. Here's a good basic explanation of the MQA process, including MQA Core and Rendering. Of course everything matters in audio, and without the third unfold you will not recover the full resolution of the digital file as detailed in the link provided. Hope this helps!

[skbe]

Thank you very much and thanks to Mike

[wklie]

Between the D2 and U1 MINI, I also think D2 is perhaps better for you.

- U1 MINI: Only one USB output is active at any time. When USB audio output is being used, the other coaxial / toslink / AES should not be used.
- U1 MINI is newer than D2. All Lumin models receive firmware updates.
- Both devices are functionally similar in terms of HiRes, Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify Connect, AirPlay, Roon Ready and how they're controlled for playback from NAS.

For the MQA, I'll use the official MQA terminology so it'll be different.

D2 does full MQA decoding to analog outputs.

For D2 BNC-SPDIF output and U1 MINI all digital outputs, Lumin can perform MQA Core decoding (first unfold) to output 88.2kHz or 96kHz, which can be fed into another non-MQA DAC (or a MQA Renderer DAC).

This is because the final MQA rendering can only be done to analog outputs that is optimized for individual DAC hardware implementation profile. As for Core decoding vs full decoding: the Core decoding recovers the musical information embedded in the MQA format, and the final rendering gives you more MQA sound signature than no rendering.

If you primarily use Qobuz and don't subscribe to Tidal, and have no MQA CD rips, then this does not matter.

Note that for playback of MQA and DSD, D2 analog output and BNC-SPDIF output are not simultaneously active. Only one can be used.

[NekoAudio]

As it happens, we have a D2 right next to an ND8006. Since you haven't described a need for the different digital output options of the U1 Mini, the D2 essentially lets you use it as both a streamer with digital out to the ND8006 or as a streaming DAC. In other words, the D2 provides more functionality at a very modest cost.

Specifically with respect to your two scenarios, the ND8006 and D2 sound different. So ideally you might bring your ND8006 in to a Lumin dealer to compare the DAC between the two. Or having both the ND8006 and D2, you would be able to switch back and forth as desired, and perhaps you have use for other ND8006 functionality like the CD player.

[Tubes]

Roon does my first unfolding and my Lumin D2 does the second. I'm also using an Sbooser BOTW MK II linear power suppler and it really enhances the openness and bass extension of the D2.

[wklie]

Roon does my first unfolding and my Lumin D2 does the second. I'm also using an Sbooser BOTW MK II linear power suppler and it really enhances the openness and bass extension of the D2.

By default with no DSP configured, Roon would let D2 perform both MQA Core decoding and MQA rendering.

With Roon MQA Capabilities for Lumin D2 set to "Renderer Only", then Roon will do the Core decoding and the D2 will do the MQA rendering.

(Which steps are done where can be checked in the Roon signal path display.)

Have you compared both methods or did you hear a difference?

[Tubes]

Yes Peter, I have tried both configurations and I prefer it when my D2 is set to renderer only.

[skbe]

Thank you very much Peter.

To be precise:

- U1 MINI: Only one USB output is active at any time. When USB audio output is being used, the other coaxial / toslink / AES should not be used.

Does this mean that Lumin U1 Mini will automatically select USB1 output if it is the first output used to play something and will automatically shut down USB2 output? On the contrary, if I run music via USB2 first, U1 Mini will close automatically USB1 to liberate USB2?

Or, does this mean that in the U1 Mini settings, only one USB output can be made available? Ie in order to listen to music via USB2, I have to go to the device settings and select manually the wanted USB2?

Note that for playback of MQA and DSD, D2 analog output and BNC-SPDIF output are not simultaneously active. Only one can be used.

Same question. When outputs are not simultaneously active, this means that active/unactive is handled automatically or user defined in the device settings?

Best,

[skbe]

Roon does my first unfolding and my Lumin D2 does the second. I'm also using an Sbooser BOTW MK II linear power suppler and it really enhances the openness and bass extension of the D2.

Hey Tubes, how do you use a power supply with a device that has a power supply internally?

[skbe]

As it happens, we have a D2 right next to an ND8006. Since you haven't described a need for the different digital output options of the U1 Mini, the D2 essentially lets you use it as both a streamer with digital out to the ND8006 or as a streaming DAC. In other words, the D2 provides more functionality at a very modest cost.

Specifically with respect to your two scenarios, the ND8006 and D2 sound different. So ideally you might bring your ND8006 in to a Lumin dealer to compare the DAC between the two. Or having both the ND8006 and D2, you would be able to switch back and forth as desired, and perhaps you have use for other ND8006 functionality like the CD player.

Thank you!
I feel that the Marantz has a better DAC (ESS Tech ES9016 à 2x4 canaux - Sabre) which is quite the same if I am not mistaken than the S1. But this is technology and the most important thing is music and emotion. To tell you the truth, I don't really make a difference between Spotify and Qobuz (tried blind tests several times). I am choosing Hi-Res as a psychological matter.

[wklie]

I feel that the Marantz has a better DAC (ESS Tech ES9016 à 2x4 canaux - Sabre) which is quite the same if I am not mistaken than the S1.

Whether it is a better DAC I'll let you decide when you get a chance.

Product and specification wise it's not the same as S1.

ESS chip names are confusing in that they have a mobile line and a PRO line, which are very different architecturally and have very different chip-level prices. The mobile line can be used in a smartphone. Your DAC uses the mobile version ES9016K2M. It's not even the mobile version of 9018. Some manufacturers using mobile version DAC chips or some of their regional marketing offices often do not state the mobile designation clearly.

S1 uses four non-mobile (i.e. PRO) chips of of 9018.

For the USB outputs of U1 MINI, you have to make sure you only connect one USB DAC to it, not two. If a USB DAC is detected, USB output is automatically done.

If no USB DAC is connected, the AES / BNC / coaxial / toslink outputs will be normal. This is also automatic (by the absence of USB DAC connection), although you can disable the latter outputs individually.

[skbe]

Whether it is a better DAC I'll let you decide when you get a chance.

Product and specification wise it's not the same as S1.

ESS chip names are confusing in that they have a mobile line and a PRO line, which are very different architecturally and have very different chip-level prices. The mobile line can be used in a smartphone. Your DAC uses ES9016K2M, a mobile version of the 9016. It's not even the mobile version of 9018. Some manufacturers using mobile version DAC chips or some of their regional marketing offices often do not state the mobile designation clearly.

S1 uses four non-mobile (i.e. PRO) chips of of 9018.

Thank you for these precise answers. In fact, I am not a specialist and was confused by ESS names.

For the USB outputs of U1 MINI, you have to make sure you only connect one USB DAC to it, not two. If a USB DAC is detected, USB output is automatically done.

If no USB DAC is connected, the AES / BNC / coaxial / toslink outputs will be normal. This is also automatic (by the absence of USB DAC connection), although you can disable the latter outputs individually.

I think I see. One cannot use 2 DACs with the U1 Mini if one of the 2 DACs is connected to U1 Mini via USB. Is my understanding correct?

[skbe]

Some other questions, Peter, thanks again for your help.

- In Lumin U1 Mini, you think it is preferrable to use Optical or Coaxial output?
- You confirm that in the U1 Mini the digital outputs (other than USB) can be enabled / disabled individually? I cannot see these settings in here : http://www.luminmusic.com/support-settings.html
- In this page, regarding MQA mode : http://www.luminmusic.com/support-settings.html ; it is said that "Passthrough: LUMIN will passthrough the full MQA stream to your DAC." If my understading is correct, this sentence is misleading : the third unfold of MQA is not done if the DAC is not MQA capable?

Thanks

[skbe]

Very important question also.
I was always using the Lumin app on iOS to control my ND8006 (and some Sonos) enabled as openhome renderers by a Bubbleupnp server. I had problems recently with the Lumin app freezing and not recognizing the players if I don't use my iPhone or my iPad for a while. Can you please Lumin users confirm that with a Lumin renderer, you do not have this issue, ie the Lumin renderer disappearing after a while making it necessary to kill the Lumin app on iPhone or iPad and reoppening it again?

All the best

[skbe]

Your DAC uses the mobile version ES9016K2M.

Peter, is it possible to send me the source of this? I cannot manage to find it on the net nor in the ND8006 specifications...

That's ok I found it. Thanks for help

[mep]

Peter, is it possible to send me the source of this? I cannot manage to find it on the net nor in the ND8006 specifications...

That's ok I found it. Thanks for help

So who are you going to purchase your Lumin from?

[Tubes]

Hey Tubes, how do you use a power supply with a device that has a power supply internally?

It requires a bit of 'surgery' to remove the internal power supply and to replace it with the adapter that mounts on the back panel of the D2 and then connects to the Sbooster. It's a very simple process and well worth the effort.

[rodrigaj]

It requires a bit of 'surgery' to remove the internal power supply and to replace it with the adapter that mounts on the back panel of the D2 and then connects to the Sbooster. It's a very simple process and well worth the effort.

It should always remain clear - this modification invalidates the warranty.

[skbe]

It requires a bit of 'surgery' to remove the internal power supply and to replace it with the adapter that mounts on the back panel of the D2 and then connects to the Sbooster. It's a very simple process and well worth the effort.

Well well weeeeell. There are ideas in this forum.
Is your Sbooster reliable? For how long you were using this?

[Tubes]

Well well weeeeell. There are ideas in this forum.
Is your Sbooster reliable? For how long you were using this?

I've had it in my system for about 3 months and have had zero problems with it. From all I've read, it's a very reliable unit and to me, a worthwhile investment.

[wklie]

Peter, is it possible to send me the source of this?

ND8006 ES9016K2M:
http://www.marantz.jp/jp/Products/Pa...oductId=ND8006

[wklie]

Some other questions, Peter, thanks again for your help.

- In Lumin U1 Mini, you think it is preferrable to use Optical or Coaxial output?
- You confirm that in the U1 Mini the digital outputs (other than USB) can be enabled / disabled individually? I cannot see these settings in here : http://www.luminmusic.com/support-settings.html
- In this page, regarding MQA mode : http://www.luminmusic.com/support-settings.html ; it is said that "Passthrough: LUMIN will passthrough the full MQA stream to your DAC." If my understading is correct, this sentence is misleading : the third unfold of MQA is not done if the DAC is not MQA capable?

Thanks

For U1 MINI / U1:
- If USB audio output is used, only one DAC is supported.
- If no USB audio output is used, AES / BNC / RCA / toslink can be output to at most 4 DACs, each can be individually turned off, even if the web page was not updated to show this.
- Typically, in order of SQ, for non-USB connections try AES first, then coaxial, then finally toslink (unless your DAC manufacturer states they prefer toslink)
- In MQA mode, choose "MQA Digital Output" to enable first unfold MQA Core decoding to digital output (true for all Lumin products with one or more digital outputs). This is suitable for non-MQA DAC or MQA Renderer DAC (e.g. Berkeley).
- "MQA Passthrough" does not perform any MQA decoding - this is meant for MQA full decoder DAC only.

Again if you want MQA full decoding, you should consider D2 instead of U1 MINI.

[skbe]

For U1 MINI / U1:
- If USB audio output is used, only one DAC is supported.
- If no USB audio output is used, AES / BNC / RCA / toslink can be output to at most 4 DACs, each can be individually turned off, even if the web page was not updated to show this.
- Typically, in order of SQ, for non-USB connections try AES first, then coaxial, then finally toslink (unless your DAC manufacturer states they prefer toslink)
- In MQA mode, choose "MQA Digital Output" to enable first unfold MQA Core decoding to digital output (true for all Lumin products with one or more digital outputs). This is suitable for non-MQA DAC or MQA Renderer DAC (e.g. Berkeley).
- "MQA Passthrough" does not perform any MQA decoding - this is meant for MQA full decoder DAC only.

Again if you want MQA full decoding, you should consider D2 instead of U1 MINI.

Many thanks. I think I will buy Lumin with full confidence, Peter. Partly due to the quality of the product and the quality of your support.

The only thing remaining to be cleared is some experience testifying from Lumin users. I will certainly be disappointed if I buy a Lumin renderer and notice that the iOS app freezes after a while if not used (same problem I had with other non Lumin openhome renderers).

And finally, I will choose a Lumin U1 Mini after a lot of thinking and reading. Main reason is I like my DACs (ND 8006 for speakers and Sony signature for headphones). Tidal does not worth changing all this. So I will go with Qobuz and maybe will keep also Tidal for a while.

[skbe]

For U1 MINI / U1:
- If USB audio output is used, only one DAC is supported.

Peter, let's say I plug the U1 Mini to my DAC via USB. And let's say that my DAC is on power off mode. Does this mean that the Lumin will still recognize the DAC and all other outputs are off? Thanks

[FDPDK]

I have never had my Lumin App freeze up. ( i use a Lumin T1 )

[BlueFox]

I have never had my Lumin App freeze up. ( i use a Lumin T1 )

Same with the X1. Of course I don’t listen to low res streaming. I have a hard drive connected directly to the X1. Works perfect, and sounds great.

[wklie]

Peter, let's say I plug the U1 Mini to my DAC via USB. And let's say that my DAC is on power off mode. Does this mean that the Lumin will still recognize the DAC and all other outputs are off? Thanks

If it really has no power instead of being in stand by mode, non USB outputs should work.

[skbe]

If it really has no power instead of being in stand by mode, non USB outputs should work.

Thanks