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October 20, 2019, 12:13 PM #1
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Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
I read somewhere that it was preferable to use stored data in via ethernet from a NAS over direct in using a USB port. Anyone have any insight into if this is true or false?
Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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October 20, 2019, 12:30 PM #2
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
two issues that come to mind are:
transport of data over ethernet is error checked + corrected -- over USB it is not for most streaming applications. not sure how material a concern this is, especially for audiophile systems where electrical noise is kept low.
ethernet can be used to transfer data over long distances -- 100 meters for CAT6. USB is for short distances -- less than 2 meters.
for all you will ever want to know about USB -- and more: https://beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.shtmlviking acoustics berlin r mk2 | almarro a318b + air tight atc-5 (phono) | clearaudio concept + virtuoso v2 MM | t+a dac8 dsd + diy transport + roon rock
alp-tone audio analog cables | core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii
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October 20, 2019, 01:11 PM #3
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Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
I set up a older router close enough that I could use a 25 foot CAT 6 cable I had cryoed at Jena. This router has a USB port and a program called ReadyShare. I had it set up with my usb data drive which sent the data to the NUC over that cable. It worked but there was a more significant delay and my remote control program on a tablet was very slow to respond with errors. So I switched back to the USB drive using a .75 meter Audioquest Carbon cable and it works well. Ports on the NUC computer are USB 3.
Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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October 20, 2019, 06:34 PM #4
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
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October 20, 2019, 07:55 PM #5
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Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
I read that is was not a good idea to use USB ports to do both data in and out to the DAC at the same time. I think it was written by Steve N. of Empirical Audio. I tried to find the thread at another site with no success. I am trying to understand why that would be a bad idea? I assume it causes sonic degradation. My NUC has no additional ports like Firewire or Spdf.
Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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October 20, 2019, 11:00 PM #6
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October 20, 2019, 11:18 PM #7
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Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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October 21, 2019, 08:30 AM #8
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
In my configuration I use USB for data in on my DAC. The signal coming from my server to the Recovery and then to the DAC. Output from my DAC is analog, ala, why it is called a DAC (digital to analog converter). The XLR outputs from my DAC go to my pre-amplifier.
I personally have no use of have a USB or other digital outputs on my DAC.McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Wyred 4 Sound ISO Recovery, DC Recovery | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105
“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
"You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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October 21, 2019, 09:49 AM #9
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Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
I was hoping there was a digital engineer on site. This is more of a specialist question for someone who designs or works with USB circuits in audio related applications. I will see if i can reach Steve by phone this morning. I will also try to contact Ted Smith. Thanks to those who posted.
Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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October 21, 2019, 09:15 PM #10
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
USB Audio uses a different variation of the protocol than USB Data.
USB Data has packet error detection and retransmission, just like Ethernet or your hard disk and provide delivery and data integrity guarantees. USB Audio, designed as a real-time data stream, does not bother with retransmission because it's considered better to have the correct playback for "now" instead of falling behind. Imagine, for example, if you were watching a live stream on your computer but over time errors in the audio transmission to your USB audio device caused the audio to become farther and farther out of sync. It's the same reason live video (e.g. remote news correspondents) does not retransmit and might freeze and then jump to the correct time while streaming video (e.g. Netflix) will pause and rebuffer if it needs to.
Because USB audio is designed to be real-time and does not retransmit in event of errors, if you are asking your audio device to do too much (or if your computer is overloaded) then you will have problems with the data delivery. That being said, there are many computer USB audio interfaces that are capable of doing a lot at the same time over a single USB connection, since USB 2.0 is much, much more than enough for stereo lossless audio.
In other words it shouldn't really matter as long as the product engineers did their job right.
With respect to your original question:
I read somewhere that it was preferable to use stored data in via ethernet from a NAS over direct in using a USB port. Anyone have any insight into if this is true or false?
However if you are considering Ethernet or USB data transmission versus USB audio transmission, it's no longer comparing apples to apples. And the above concerns with data loss apply to USB audio.Neko Audio
Authorized Dealer: AC Infinity, APC, Audeze, Bryston, Devialet, Elite HTS, Fortress Seating, JMF Audio, JVC, Kaleidescape, LG, LUMIN, Magico, Ortofon, RME, Samsung, Soulution, STAX, Trinnov, Vivid Audio, Weiss & more.
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October 22, 2019, 08:16 AM #11
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
By far, your best way of storing data for playback is internal within the computer/server. The question of transporting the data becomes moot since at the worse SATA does not have any issues and at the best M.2 drives connect directly to the motherboard similar to RAM. The only use of USB in this case is to transport between the server and the DAC. Definitely no issues doing this for short runs. Additionally, some USB re-clockers have also shown to have positive affects going between the server and the DAC.
McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Wyred 4 Sound ISO Recovery, DC Recovery | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105
“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
"You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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October 22, 2019, 11:37 AM #12
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- Oregon
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Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
Thank you NekoAudio. This is what I was hoping to read. I use the memory playback function provided by jriver 25. So, the music storage hard drive loads data at the start. Do you have any experience with the large number of USB add on devices to improve USB performance?
Main System: Analog - Linn LP12, Origin Live DC motor and Controller, SME V arm, Benz Ruby H 2 cartridge, Wright Sound preamp. Digital - Intel NUC I-7, 16 gig ram, Jriver media center 24, Wyrd4 Sound 2V2 SE Dac, Fathom Hard Drives.
H-Cat Version 9 preamp, ARC Reference 75 amp, Custom line source speakers - 10 SB Acoustics midwoofers, 10 Fountek ribbon tweeters. JL Audio Fathom f112 Subs
Wire - T G Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic Research , Audioquest, Lewis silver foil, Duelund, Transparent.
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October 22, 2019, 08:56 PM #13
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
I'm not 100% sure and it's probably best to ask on the JRiver forum, but having JRiver load all the data into memory just means the full audio data is in RAM on your computer (where JRiver is running). That's different from having the full audio data in memory on your playback device. Old iPods would do this too, because it minimized hard disk spin time to save battery life.
If your computer is then connected to a DAC over USB for playback, you're using USB Audio for that communication.
In the majority of cases you shouldn't need any USB reclockers or isolators or similar devices. You could always try one, especially if your environment is noisy or if your computer isn't so great or if your DAC exhibits sensitivity to the USB connection/data, since there are some cases where it might help. But the first thing I'd recommend trying, out of anything, is to use a USB cable with ferrite rings to see if that makes any difference.Neko Audio
Authorized Dealer: AC Infinity, APC, Audeze, Bryston, Devialet, Elite HTS, Fortress Seating, JMF Audio, JVC, Kaleidescape, LG, LUMIN, Magico, Ortofon, RME, Samsung, Soulution, STAX, Trinnov, Vivid Audio, Weiss & more.
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October 23, 2019, 02:19 PM #14
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | almarro a318b + air tight atc-5 (phono) | clearaudio concept + virtuoso v2 MM | t+a dac8 dsd + diy transport + roon rock
alp-tone audio analog cables | core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii
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October 23, 2019, 06:56 PM #15
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
George
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Aurender ACS10 Music Server > Holo Audio May KTE R2R Ladder DAC > Pass Labs XP-30 Preamp > Pass Labs XA160.5 Class A Mono Blocks > Martin Logan Renaissance ELS 15A Speakers
Powered By 2X BPT 3.5 Signature Plus Ultra Isolators | Shunyata Research Hydra Triton + Typhon | Shunyata Hydra 2 Power Conditioner
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October 23, 2019, 09:49 PM #16
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October 23, 2019, 10:25 PM #17
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
YMMV ...but why not?
the SQ was nicely improved when i tried a usb cable with ferite rings - confirmed with a simple blind a/b test on a family member. there seems to be a well established noise reduction property to them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_beadviking acoustics berlin r mk2 | almarro a318b + air tight atc-5 (phono) | clearaudio concept + virtuoso v2 MM | t+a dac8 dsd + diy transport + roon rock
alp-tone audio analog cables | core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii
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October 23, 2019, 10:45 PM #18
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
Anything along the lines of ferrite cores, inductors, chokes, etc., used for noise reduction impact dynamics, both macro and micro-dynamics.
Take at look at the very best USB cables on the market e.g. Audioquest, Shunyata, Nordost, Crystal Cable, Wireworld, etc. They are built to provide absolute best performance regardless of cost. Virtually none of them use a ferrite core on the cable.
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October 23, 2019, 11:45 PM #19
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
fair enough ...but, given my empirical experience with ferrite cores positively impacting dynamics, i would not dissuade anyone from giving them a try -- and, i think that is all that is being suggested here.
one can always resort to a $2k USB cable if unhappy with the results.viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | almarro a318b + air tight atc-5 (phono) | clearaudio concept + virtuoso v2 MM | t+a dac8 dsd + diy transport + roon rock
alp-tone audio analog cables | core audio designs plyKraft 3L | hifi racks ltd podium t5-iii
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October 24, 2019, 08:20 AM #20
Re: Question about using USB for data input and out to DAC
I have used a Wyred 4 Sound Recovery unit since they were released. I actually grabbed one from EJ a couple of days before they started shipping their first batch ever. I would not say that it is 100% necessary, but I also say it has made a nice improvement. My computer and my USB cables are both very solid. In my view, no matter what level equipment you have the Recovery makes a nice improvement and for its price you simply cannot go wrong. By the way, I use AudioQuest Coffee USB cables. The only real down fall that I have seen is that two USB cables are required, therefore, with good cables this can get a bit pricey . I also recommend an iPower power supply for the unit.
McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Wyred 4 Sound ISO Recovery, DC Recovery | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105
“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
"You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
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