Lumin Amazon HiRes Audio Streaming

[Audio4me]

Does anyone know when Lumin will be adding Amazon HiRes Audio Streaming?

Thanks

[jadedavid]

Great question.
Will wait for WkLie to respond.

[wklie]

No comment for now.

[mikeyb]

This is the major problem with Amazon HD, hardly anyone can play it directly from their device, a big error on Amazon's part I think. Yes I know Denon, Pioneer and others advertise it but if you read their info you'll find most only do it via Airplay. Bluesound can do it but it's seemingly so-so to use.

Yes it can Airplay/Cast but those that are serious about music WANT to play it properly surely?

Don't hold your breath for the release of their API and watch out for the leavers once their 90 day trial is up.

Amazon of course sell the Echo Link DAC/Streamer but it's £190

[UltraFast69]

I just searched to understand what they are offering, and while price is something one should consider, the market is not us, and that’s ok as I said before I will stick with Qobuz and Tidal as they are segmented into our world!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[AJ Soundfield]

This is the major problem with Amazon HD, hardly anyone can play it directly from their device

Huh? I'd guestimate 99.9% of subscribers can play it just fine.
I'm sure the boutique/3rd party market will adopt eventually.

[mikeyb]

Huh? I'd guestimate 99.9% of subscribers can play it just fine.
I'm sure the boutique/3rd party market will adopt eventually.

You've misinterpreted what I meant, of course people can play it but where are the dedicated devices to play it in full resolution and able to control it on their HiFi system? Such as we can with Tidal, Spotify, Qobuz etc.


Don't think many audiophiles use Denon or Pioneer or Yamaha etc.

Yeah I can listen on my iPad, my smartphone but very few devices will play it to my hifi system directly ie: not Airplay

[AJ Soundfield]

where are the dedicated devices to play it in full resolution and able to control it on their HiFi system? Such as we can with Tidal, Spotify, Qobuz etc.

very few devices will play it to my hifi system directly ie: not Airplay

Most folks own computers. With usb ports. Whether those are "dedicated" is irrelevant. With an internet connection, they will stream any of the services, including Amazon, just fine. No Denon, Pioneer or Yamaha required. Maybe an HP or Dell. They're seen at audio shows all the time, often laptops. Use an external usb DAC capable up whatever sample rate one imagines is required for "full resolution" above human 16/44.

Or wait for Lumin, etc. to adopt, hopefully eventually.

[Jack]

When Amazon makes their API available I'm sure Lumin and the other major streaming device companies will adopt it but at this point the ball is in Amazon's court. The CEO of Auralic announced last week that he had already reached out to them. Another option is for Amazon to make available to those companies a full service app like Spotify Connect.

[still-one]

Most folks own computers. With usb ports. Whether those are "dedicated" is irrelevant. With an internet connection, they will stream any of the services, including Amazon, just fine. No Denon, Pioneer or Yamaha required. Maybe an HP or Dell. They're seen at audio shows all the time, often laptops. Use an external usb DAC capable up whatever sample rate one imagines is required for "full resolution" above human 16/44.

Or wait for Lumin, etc. to adopt, hopefully eventually.

Dangling a laptop via USB off a two channel set-up is akin to hanging fuzzy dice from the mirror of a Porsche or Ferrari.

[BlueFox]

I agree. Any streaming that uses a generic computer is no better than using it to play ripped files. Basically, it is at the bottom of the audiophile pile.

[AJ Soundfield]

Dangling a laptop via USB off a two channel set-up is akin to hanging fuzzy dice from the mirror of a Porsche or Ferrari.

Yes, agree fashion is the number 1 audiophile priority.
A mini pc can be placed in the audiophile shrine. Just like a Lumin et al.

[CPP]

For all we know Amazon did this to go after those non audiophile types with their smart phones and car radios and home computers. There are more of those non audiophile types than audiophiles. I guess time will tell,.

[rodrigaj]

The folks at The Next Track podcast have a very interesting discussion about Amazon HD. Check it out here.

(I have no affiliation with them)

[Spinaker01]

I agree. Any streaming that uses a generic computer is no better than using it to play ripped files. Basically, it is at the bottom of the audiophile pile.

Hey Bud, that’s a pretty decent entry-level stereo rig you’ve got there! 😁. Colour me green for envious

[W9TR]

All of the Lumins, Aurenders, Nucleus's, SGC's, Antipodes, Esoterics, they are all fairly heavyweight computers tied to your DAC and floating in the breeze like one of those unrolling paper party streamers. Just like the fuzzy dice hanging from my Porsche mirror. Dare I mention Olive? Hope you sold yours in time.

Anyway, it is possible to create a very capable music server using a PC platform that is optimized for low emi/rfi and excellent audio. Most audiophiles don't have the background to do so, thus the proliferation of proprietary music server platforms. Getting digital correct is very hard, thus the array of power conditioning, grounding, and cable products that really do make a difference in digital front end sound quality, even using dedicated streamers. Boy this hair shirt fits great!

[wklie]

All of the Lumins, Aurenders, Nucleus's, SGC's, Antipodes, Esoterics, they are all fairly heavyweight computers tied to your DAC

Half of the mentioned products are full blown x86 computers, but not Lumin - Lumin is comparatively lightweight.

[nicoff]

Half of the mentioned products are full blown x86 computers, but not Lumin - Lumin is comparatively lightweight.

Not sure if that is supposed good or bad.

[W9TR]

I think it’s good.

Hey Peter, what’s under that big heat sink? Inquiring minds want to know. It’s sure not an Atmega 169.

[NekoAudio]

LUMIN being an actual consumer electronics (CE) product instead of a general purpose computer in a nicer looking enclosure is one thing I find very attractive, from a product perspective. I have done embedded software development and CE hardware production, and there are significant benefits associated with a product not being designed or operating like a general purpose computer.

One that is pretty easy for people to grasp is that there will be no problems if the device suddenly loses power. But there are other benefits in terms of how processes can be run and prioritized and how hardware can be interfaced with.

The downside is that it is not general purpose, and it can be harder to repurpose things or to add functionality that is significantly different than what was originally planned.

[wklie]

Hey Peter, what’s under that big heat sink? Inquiring minds want to know. It’s sure not an Atmega 169.

We use a brand of processor that is very little known nowadays. We also use a FPGA on most models.

[wklie]

Not sure if that is supposed good or bad.

For SQ - this is usually a good thing for users because of the lower noise and power requirements which also translate to power supply noise. Some computer audio users, and some manufacturers as well, need to underclock their x86 CPU (and got into a debate with Roon Labs COO which you can still read on Roon forum) to improve SQ.

For functionality - this presents as a challenge for development as Neko Audio correctly pointed out. Some requested features like DSP are impossible to do on current Lumin hardware - we can only leave that to Roon Core. I agree with the Roon philosophy that it's best to leave heavy processing out of audio devices anyway.

[Tubes]

I found this episode of The Next Track podcast having to do with Amazon's new streaming service very interesting. It features Chris Connaker from the Audiophile Style forum.

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aH...=1570503149302

[W9TR]

They sure love Qobuz. They hate MQA and dismiss Tidal out of hand. They do not understand how Windows audio works and are spreading misinformation about it. They sound like owners of an independent bookstore circa 10 years ago predicting Amazon’s demise because of lack of customer service.

[asindc]

They sure love Qobuz. They hate MQA and dismiss Tidal out of hand. They do not understand how Windows audio works and are spreading misinformation about it. They sound like owners of an independent bookstore circa 10 years ago predicting Amazon’s demise because of lack of customer service.

As I understand it, there seems to be a lot of hoop jumping to get Amazon Ultra HD to play through a high-end rig unless you attach a laptop or desktop directly to your DAC via USB. Even then, you have to use Windows’ upsampler, which does not automatically rate switch, meaning you don’t get bit perfect unless you are playing a file that matches the rate already set. Is this correct?

[W9TR]

Not sure - when I get back home later this week I’ll try it and let everyone know.

[Mike]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AJ Soundfield]

Even then, you have to use Windows’ upsampler, which does not automatically rate switch, meaning you don’t get bit perfect unless you are playing a file that matches the rate already set. Is this correct?

Not per my undrstanding using latest versions of 10 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...-audio-drivers

[asindc]

Not per my undrstanding using latest versions of 10 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...-audio-drivers

Unless I missed it (quite possible), I didn't see on that page where Windows allows for auto-rate switching.

[AJ Soundfield]

Unless I missed it (quite possible), I didn't see on that page where Windows allows for auto-rate switching.

Perhaps I misunderstood your question. Are you talking about Windows upsampling? What is "auto-rate switching"? Maintaining native sample rates?

[wklie]

For playing music on Windows, when the software in Exclusive Mode, WASAPI / ASIO driver, and configuration are done correctly it is usually possible to bypass the OS mixer (which degrade sound quality) and have auto rate switching. I think this is what AJ is talking about.

For Amazon Music, however, according to some forum discussions people found that its Windows software currently lacks the required Exclusive Mode - which is standard on the Tidal and Qobuz desktop apps and Roon. Without this feature SQ is affected. To workaround this limitation the current forum recommendation seems to be to configure Windows to upsample everything to the highest rate a DAC accepts. I think this is the problem Anthony is saying. This is such a fundamental mandatory feature for high quality music playback I expect Amazon to add it sooner or later. After all if people are not demanding the highest quality they're better off using Spotify which is less expensive.

[asindc]

Perhaps I misunderstood your question. Are you talking about Windows upsampling? What is "auto-rate switching"? Maintaining native sample rates?

Yes, maintaining native sample rates.

[asindc]

For playing music on Windows, when the software in Exclusive Mode, WASAPI / ASIO driver, and configuration are done correctly it is usually possible to bypass the OS mixer (which degrade sound quality) and have auto rate switching. I think this is what AJ is talking about.

For Amazon Music, however, according to some forum discussions people found that its Windows software currently lacks the required Exclusive Mode - which is standard on the Tidal and Qobuz desktop apps and Roon. Without this feature SQ is affected. To workaround this limitation the current forum recommendation seems to be to configure Windows to upsample everything to the highest rate a DAC accepts. I think this is the problem Anthony is saying. This is such a fundamental mandatory feature for high quality music playback I expect Amazon to add it sooner or later. After all if people are not demanding the highest quality they're better off using Spotify which is less expensive.

Yes, this is what I’m referring to.

[AJ Soundfield]

Well, regarding W10 resampling "audio" SQ, this sort of evidence is suffcient for me https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?top...0216#msg940216. Obviously YMMV.

Peter, thanks and good luck, hopefully Amazon can be incorporated by Lumin at some point, for ease of use by audiophiles. They (Amazon) are the 900 pound gorilla in the streaming market and it would make sense for all avalable options to be accessible by users.

cheers,

AJ

[wklie]

Thanks for the link to the evidence. I shall study it.

[wklie]

Since the only current viable means to play Amazon Music HD to Lumin is via AirPlay, Firmware 11.7 improves AirPlay playback by significantly reducing audio dropout in less-than-perfect WiFi network.

[wklie]

Here's what a user said about using AirPlay of Amazon Music to Lumin:

Worked perfect as you know music through the Lumin player sounds really good!!

Yeah a proper solution would be good as Amazon music is only going to get bigger. I’ve just cancelled my Tidal family subscription for Amazon and saved myself almost £200.

[wklie]

I wonder how the sum of 200 is calculated.

[asindc]

Audiophile Style (formerly Computer Audiophile) does an initial review of Amazon Music HD: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-...nos-port-r848/

The initial takeaway: "Given that these are early days for Amazon Music HD, I expect things will improve. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. Communication with Amazon has been nearly impossible and the company has shown zero interest in the consumers of its HD tier. There isn't a platform I know of that works perfect with Amazon Music HD, although BluOS likely has the best shot at getting things right. I need to get a Bluesound Node 2i for further Bluesound testing. For now, all other platforms are severely limited in either capability or usability with Amazon Music HD."

[CPP]

I wonder how the sum of 200 is calculated.

$19.95 a month US for Hi-Fi gets up there to $239

[wklie]

It seems that in UK, Tidal HiFi Family is GBP29.99 while Amazon Music HD Family is GBP19.99. That's GBP10 saving per month. After clarifying with the user, it turns out that he included the 90-day free trial into the calculation, i.e. saving 29.99 * 3 originally for Tidal, got a once-off discount for a being a Prime member, and excluded the cost of Prime membership (which is useful for other purposes).

From another forum discussion, I also see someone preferring the Amazon music library to Tidal.

[audiobear]

wklie. any plans to add the classical music streaming sites Idagio and/or Primephonic to Lumin?

[wklie]

Do these offer a larger collection than Qobuz, Tidal or Amazon Music?

[audiobear]

Yes, the classical catalogs on both Idagio and Primephonic are huge. With both of these sites combined you can find almost any classical music piece played by any soloist or conductor/orchestra you want. The same can not be said of Tidal and Qobuz. I have no experience with Amazon but it is likely lacking as well.

Bravo to the Lumin team for the new 11.7 update. I can now Airplay the 2 classical music sites to my X1 with no dropouts, pauses or interruptions. Airplay still limits the very few high resolution recordings found on Primephonic to 16/44.

It would be be awesome for Lumin to add the classical streaming sites. To the best of my knowledge Bluesound has added Idagio and Sonos and Chromecast have added Primephonic.

Thanks for your reply, Peter.

[rodrigaj]

+1 on addition of IDAGIO to Lumin App and the recent update to Lumin Airplay. Outstanding streaming experience now. No dropouts, clicks, etc...

In terms of overall (i.e., all genres) catalog size, Idagio does only classical, but it is an outstanding streaming service because of the handling of classical metadata. They also have real humans doing their Discover section, so it is quite good.

I tried Primephonic when they first started up, but it was a very poor experience so I dropped them.

IDAGIO also has gapless playback on iOS, so in combination with Airplay it is the best classical streaming experience IMO.

BTW, Sonos also does IDAGIO.

[benpit]

I tried Primephonic when they first started up, but it was a very poor experience so I dropped them.

IDAGIO also has gapless playback on iOS, so in combination with Airplay it is the best classical streaming experience IMO.

BTW, Sonos also does IDAGIO.

I agree with Primephonic, recently purchased a 50% off their 24 bit yearly subscription but to be honest their web player integration is poor and needs to be enhanced. Tidal just works and MQA files are amazing on the Lumin T2, would be great to add Primephonic to the Lumin app though, why? because the app is just solid and has a great UI. Cheers!

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you for joinig.

[pdxaudio]

Any update on this? I was considering a Lumin U1 Mini as an upgrade to the Bluesound Node 2i but didn’t want to use 2 different devices.

[wklie]

You may use AirPlay to Lumin.

[pdxaudio]

You may use AirPlay to Lumin.

Doesn’t that downsample the hi-rez files?