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  1. #51

    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
    Myles.......Thanks for bringing your point of view to the discussion, and refocusing on the original topic. The clowning around gets old quick.
    It certainly does Dan.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    ~ Bob ~
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  3. #53
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Question: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    The Hifi market worldwide today gives you a clear answer: No.

    The rest is personal and conversation.
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  4. #54

    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by tube-vds View Post
    Question: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    The Hifi market worldwide today gives you a clear answer: No.

    The rest is personal and conversation.
    Well said.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  5. #55
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Well said.
    Reliability is an objective metric. It's just that there probably is no hard data on actual problem/failure numbers, just old guys talking anecdotes among themselves. With utmost seriousness of course.

  6. #56

    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Reliability is an objective metric. It's just that there probably is no hard data on actual problem/failure numbers, just old guys talking anecdotes among themselves. With utmost seriousness of course.
    You are correct about reliability being an objective measurement. The hard data is in the hands of the OEMs who repair their gear and track their failure modes. Audiophiles don’t have access to that data which leads to old guys swapping war stories.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  7. #57
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    I assembled my first high-end audio system 51 years ago. In the ensuing years I have owned so much audio equipment I could fill a boutique audio shop front to back if I had it all back. I have had so few repair issues with equipment during this half century of time as to be considered nearly insignificant. There has been no noteworthy difference with repair issues between my solid state gear or my tube gear. One type of gear versus the other has not demonstrated that either has gained notoriety over the other.

    Right now, as luck would have it, I have a service issue with a solid state piece of equipment. My Aurender N100H music server AMOLED screen failed. I usually kept the screen set to display the artist and song titles. I began to notice the display becoming dimmer by the day. Then last week the screen turned a whitish pink color and froze so that the Aurender Conductor app no longer communicated with the screen. I could not turn it off. A hard reboot of the music server did nothing to correct the problem. When playing songs the music server continued to perform flawless, just the screen failed. Aurender answered my support email within a half an hour, issued me an RMA number, and N100H was shipped back to the Irvine, California service center yesterday for a new AMOLED screen to be installed. Thank goodness I have other source components in the living room sound system so I am not high and dry for music.





    It just goes to demonstrate that any component can have an issue at any moment that requires technical service. Parts occasionally fail whether solid state or vacuum tube based. It's the nature of the electronic beast. None the less, my total service related incidents compared to the total components I have owned over 51 years has been inconsequential. It's a given that there will be issues from time to time, and certainly nothing to spend much energy worrying about.
    Dan

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  8. #58
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
    My Aurender N100H music server AMOLED screen failed.
    Joe R is talking about tube amplifiers vs SS amplifiers, quite specifically.
    Basically the tube fan club here is saying there is either no difference in reliability and yearly service needs, like replacing power tubes and in fact, tube amps may be the more reliable less finicky option. Of course reality and high enders are two different worlds entirely.
    Btw, off the top of my head, I currently own a least 6 different tube components, including amplifiers. Reliability and non-finickyness aren't the reasons why.

  9. #59
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Joe R is talking about tube amplifiers vs SS amplifiers, quite specifically.
    Basically the tube fan club here is saying there is either no difference in reliability and yearly service needs, like replacing power tubes and in fact, tube amps may be the more reliable less finicky option. Of course reality and high enders are two different worlds entirely.
    Btw, off the top of my head, I currently own a least 6 different tube components, including amplifiers. Reliability and non-finickyness aren't the reasons why.
    AJ.......I understand the original topic. I am simply pointing out as a general rule that reliability of audio components can prove elusive no matter the design concept, and may inflict failure issues on any component at any given time without warning.

    With respect to service issues and tube amplification, one thing that appeals to me is the ability to check tube performance at will, and by keeping track of the gain and transconductance numbers some problems can be identified in advance of them becoming performance or service issues. That's why I invested in tube testing equipment. No doubt about it, due diligence is a bit more demanding with tube amplifiers. Some people are not willing to embrace the effort and cost and that's fine, but in my opinion the effort and expense is rewarded many times over in pure musical enjoyment and peace of mind.
    Dan

    STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital coax,
    Sonos Connect, Stillpoints Ultra SS & Ultra Mini, PurePower 2000, Furutech Flux 50, Michell Gyro SE, Michell HR Power Supply, SME 309, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Sonus faber Amati Anniversario

    LIVING ROOM - McIntosh C2300, MC75 (2), MR85, Magnum Dynalab 205 Signal Sleuth, Sonos Connect, Simaudio MOON Neo 260D-T, Schiit Audio Yggdrasil, Aurender N100H, Shunyata Sigma USB cable,
    Sony DAT 60ES, Nakamichi BX-300, Micro Seiki DD40 w/m505A tonearm, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, PS Audio P10, Furutech Flux 50, Stillpoints Ultra Mini, PMC EB1i, JL Audio f113

    VINTAGE - McIntosh 4300V, McIntosh MA230, Tandberg 3011A tuner, Olive 04HD, JBL 4312A

  10. #60
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
    That's why I invested in tube testing equipment. No doubt about it, due diligence is a bit more demanding with tube amplifiers.
    That may have been the central theme of Joe's position. He never once argued against the sound satisfaction factor. In fact, he unambiguously stated that was not an issue.
    As you say, some folks don't mind all the extra effort, others apparently do...and simultaneously aren't settling for second fiddle with their choice of sonics in spite of this.

  11. #61

    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    The bottom line is that tube gear is going to cost more money to operate over time than SS gear. Tubes have a finite life and will have to be replaced periodically. People who aren’t willing to deal with tubes shouldn’t.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  12. #62
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    You are correct about reliability being an objective measurement. The hard data is in the hands of the OEMs who repair their gear and track their failure modes. Audiophiles don’t have access to that data which leads to old guys swapping war stories.

    I'm too young of an old guy to be an old guy.

  13. #63

    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrassphile View Post
    I'm too young of an old guy to be an old guy.
    It’s all relative.
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  14. #64
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    Just simple ones, like tube degradation, low power, limited ability to handle less than 8 ohm loads, bass overhang, rolled off high frequencies, quality tube availability, high cost of power tubes, need for a vacuum tube tester, tube biasing, tube matching, sound variability dependent on tube brand or date of manufacture, total tube failure, high heat and overall reliability.

    I understand that all of these rarely apply. But every one can be a possibility and therefore a trade off. Oh, and I forgot that sometimes the tubes needed go out of production. The stock pile of NOS is not going to last forever.
    If you don't mind me debunking this at this late point in the thread:
    Tubes do degrade, but if you stick to triodes the degradation is much slower.
    Yes, tubes make less power, but that really isn't a problem as we shall see.

    Its pretty fair to say that no amplifier really handles less than 8 ohms all that well. The problem here is that as load impedance is reduced, the distortion of any amplifier goes up. You might think it 'negligible' but its not; that increased distortion is almost entirely IM and higher ordered harmonics, both to which the ear is keenly sensitive. So the result is less detailed, harsher sound. Put another way, if high quality reproduction is your goal, your amplifier investment dollar will be best served by a loudspeaker that is 8 ohms or more, all other things being equal. A simple way to make any solid state design sound smoother and more detailed (due to less distortion) is to simply increase the load impedance. What I'm talking about here is the difference between a good hifi and something that sounds like real music.

    There is no reason high frequencies have to be rolled off. The H/K Citation 2 had bandwidth to well over 60KHz; our amps go up to 200KHz (with full power to 1 Hz). It might be though that you hear less energy up high for a different reason- the ear converts distortion into tonality; higher ordered harmonics are perceived as brightness. If they are masked as they often are in a tube amp, the result is a perception of less energy even though the bandwidth might be the same. IOW the brighter sound you hear from solid state is often just distortion that isn't masked.

    Bass overhang isn't a thing if the design is at all competent.

    We get our power tubes from Russia; they cost tested at retail about $28.00 each. That's really not crazy money. We don't need a tester to test them; they can be tested visually- just by looking at them you can tell if they are good (and how they behave in our amps). BTW this is true of a lot of power tubes. Our bias and that of many other amps is automatic. We don't match the tubes- we've found no need but this is an issue in many other designs. We don't find a lot of variance between the Russian and Chinese variants; the American tubes sound a little better but are often less reliable (counter to how that sort of thing usually works with tube amps).

    One thing you might want to keep in mind is that quite often these days its easier to find a replacement tube than it is to find a replacement semiconductor. There are millions of different semiconductors in production and that have been produced; of the latter many are obsolete and no longer available. We had a Classe amp in for repair some years back; what stymied the repair was that the output devices weren't available even from Classe. But that particular amp was made in the early 1990s and while almost any tube amp made in that time you can still find the replacement tubes, this decades on after tubes were declared 'obsolete'.

    Reliability is an engineering issue. You can design for a given tube and depending on how you do it, the tube may or may not last. This is true of semiconductors as well, but since tubes are bit more forgiving (if you overheat one but let it cool off properly it might still be OK; don't do that with a transistor...) you can often get away with quite a lot. At audio shows I often short out the outputs of our amps, pull tubes while the amp is playing and the amp acts like nothing happened. Don't do that with a solid state amp!

  15. #65
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    IOW the brighter sound you hear from solid state is often just distortion that isn't masked.
    Or expectation, sighted, etc, etc bias.
    So of course never demonstrable under "trust ears"/"just listen" conditions. Totally ad hoc, sure!

  16. #66
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    So it sounds like there may be to many disadvantages to SS amps to use them.

  17. #67
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    So it sounds like there may be to many disadvantages to SS amps to use them.
    I'm not sure I would agree. The problem isn't that the engineering talent to make a musical solid state amp does not exist. There are some pretty good examples out there right now, but as far as the industry is concerned, they 'measure poorly'. IMO/IME this has to do with the simple fact that we simply don't measure the right things; not much has changed since the head engineer at HH Scott pointed this out decades ago. IMO one thing that would help a lot is a weighting system on the harmonic spectra created by the amplifier; with heavier weighting on higher ordered harmonics and very low weighting on lower orders.

    The problem with this of course is the resulting spec sheet would tell you how the amplifier sounds- you wouldn't have to audition it to know it would work in your system. The industry as a whole probably could not imagine a worse outcome! So don't hold your breath on that one.

    But there are a few mavericks out there that push the state of the art. One is pretty well known- Nelson Pass. And now that class D has been around a while, there appear to be a few players that are making amps that are better than the usual tripe- that have musical qualities. Nelson is applying engineering to make the amp work according to what we know about human hearing perceptual rules rather than designing the stuff to look good on paper. As a result he makes some of the more musical solid state amps around. IMO we need more of that.

  18. #68
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    So it sounds like there may be to many disadvantages to SS amps to use them.
    Yep, that's why all audiophiles worldwide have tube amps and Mike/Suncoast refuses to sell SS. Especially for Bluegrass music.
    Yeah must be it.

  19. #69
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Atmasphere, I was beind somewhat facetious. But my personal experience has gravitated me to tubes.

    I want to find a musical SS amp but the ones I see praised are $20k. I am stunned at what I'm hearing from my $4,400 pentode 60 watt kt88 amps. I do see a pair of your monoblock used for $6k. If I was not so happy with mine, I would buy they. I'm personally wondering about SS and can I find something as musical as mine for less than $6 used. I do wonder about the T+A amp 8. Randy likes his. That or a Luxman M600 or 800. Or a Pass XA 60.5. I'm just not at all confident any would be as magical on Classical or Jazz as what I have now.

    AJ, I though Mike had Luxman and Gryphon as well as Pass Labs?

  20. #70
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    Atmasphere, I was beind somewhat facetious.

    AJ, I though Mike had Luxman and Gryphon as well as Pass Labs?
    You weren't the only one being facetious.

  21. #71
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    A GREAT tube amp/amps,advantages significantly out weigh any disadvantage.....IMO....Would not trade my SETs for ANY SS amp...at any cost...The sound is that good...!!!
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  22. #72
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Ha AJ. I feel pretty slow.

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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    But there are a few mavericks out there that push the state of the art. One is pretty well known- Nelson Pass. And now that class D has been around a while, there appear to be a few players that are making amps that are better than the usual tripe- that have musical qualities. Nelson is applying engineering to make the amp work according to what we know about human hearing perceptual rules rather than designing the stuff to look good on paper. As a result he makes some of the more musical solid state amps around. IMO we need more of that.[/QUOTE]

    Atmasphere, Why Class D? I am sort of interested in class D. I bought that super inexpensive Allo Volt +D amp. It's dead quiet in my system. Not a sound from it or my speakers. Every other Tube or class AB SS amp I have had hums on my rack and through my speakers. I am suspect its an issue with the output transformers picking up something and amplifying it. My little class D amp seems to have no transformers in it.

    Do your amps have an input transformer. I know they don't have output transformers. Are your amps more resistant to humming issues?
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  24. #74
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Not sure anymore where this thread is heading...or maybe there's actually no longer any direction.

    Regardless, I think it's accurate to say that we have really excellent tube and SS amps today that can meet a wide set of customer's requirements for performance and create engaging musical experiences.

  25. #75
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post

    Atmasphere, Why Class D? I am sort of interested in class D. I bought that super inexpensive Allo Volt +D amp. It's dead quiet in my system. Not a sound from it or my speakers. Every other Tube or class AB SS amp I have had hums on my rack and through my speakers. I am suspect its an issue with the output transformers picking up something and amplifying it. My little class D amp seems to have no transformers in it.
    The hum is probably due to poor grounding schemes in the prior designs. That sort of thing is very common in high end audio. We have direct-coupled inputs. Occasionally we also run into hum issues- but in dealing with them we often find that something in the system was defeating the grounding scheme. We support the balanced line standard- AES48, which is pretty specific about grounding.

    As to class D, initially it seemed about lower power consumption which it why its very practical in smartphones. But it can also be about quality if the designer recognizes what is important in the final design. The criteria are different, since class D lacks many of the traditional issues and instead has issues associated with switching. But if they are dealt with correctly the result can be quite musical.

  26. #76
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Although I have a slight preference for SS, sonics are the bottom line for me. If it sounds good, it is good. Doesn't matter whether it's tubes or SS. In January I'll be taking delivery of a Gryphon Diablo D300 for my downstairs primary listening room. But I also had the opportunity to audition a VAC 170i all tube integrated amp that I would be perfectly satisfied with. Outstanding amp. Beautifully built. I can easily see why some might prefer it to the D300. But my personal preference and the sound my ears liked most was the D300. Doesn't mean it was better than the VAC, just different. I'm just not sure I want to mess with tubes. But that's me and my particular application. YMMV.

    However, I definitely could see where I might want the VAC for a secondary system (my upstairs living room) and for a different sound. I might not be going through tubes as much since it would be a secondary listening room and not used as much as my primary listening room. My 2 cents.

  27. #77

    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    There is something in the tube sound for most music except electronic and electronic dance music. You just need solid state for that.

  28. #78
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 13th Note HiFi Reviews View Post
    There is something in the tube sound for most music except electronic and electronic dance music. You just need solid state for that.
    why ??
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  29. #79

    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    why ??
    Because he said so?
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  30. #80
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Because he said so?
    well that would be typical 'audiophile response' ........... seriously though, I am curious as to why he made the statement
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  31. #81
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    https://www.audionirvana.org/node/125767

    Read this thread. Richard sites some very compelling "science" near the end.

  32. #82

    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Of all the ones I’ve tried there are only few (eg audio research) that don’t degrade dynamics and speed.

  33. #83
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    https://www.audionirvana.org/node/125767

    Richard sites some very compelling "science" near the end.
    No. That is anti-science, zero evidence belief. Sorry.
    Any decent non pathelogical SS amp will have magnitudes lower harmonic distortion than typical SET amps. And much lower output impedance.
    That's not the reason people like SETs. The opposite. They have doses of distortion, both harmonic and amplitude, that some folks find pleasing.
    It's called preference. Unortunately, that sweet syrup is applied to everything, panacakes...and steak, like it or not.
    The only "off" switch for this special effects, is the power button.




    Note that the SS does what he said, starts higher, goes lower with output. Opposite for the SET, starts low, goes high.
    But look at the magnitude, the SS starts at 0.06% at 1mW, whereas the SET is a 0.2%. IOW much higher (but highly doubtful either is audible unless your speakers sensitivity is through the roof...and the SET still loses).
    By 1w game is long over. Plus it's a total load of BS you listen mostly at 1w, unless you listen only to dreary audiophile elevator crap music. Any sort of symphonic is going to demand FAR more on peaks, even with high sensitivity speakers.
    I guess some folks crave anemic, colored audiophile sound. That's a preference, not an absolute. Not everyone does. YMMV.

    cheers,

    AJ
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Agreed AJ. Science was the wrong word to use. I don't know your 2 graph are either. They arn't ties to any particular amp /speaker combo.

    Does low power or high power really matter. I have read so many times, well deaigned amps on paper that have the most perfect "insert engineering speak" can still sound awful. On another thread the fight is between 500 watts and 2 watts. Both say theirs sounds best.

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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    Agreed AJ. Science was the wrong word to use.
    Well you did have it in quotes, which was appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I don't know your 2 graph are either.
    The top one is a (typical) SS amp doing what your quoted guy said, starting at "high" distortion at low levels (the bottom scale is watts, so we are starting at 1/10th of a watt, just like the bottom graph. Distortion as a percentage is the vertical scale. As he said, the SS amp has decreasing distortion with output, until it is overdriven >200w, where it rapidly rises.
    The SET OTOH, starts "low" at 1/10th watt, then increases. His "argument" is that this is better because it's "lower" at 1/10th watt...except it clearly isn't. 0.2% is more than 0.06%, not less. It's higher overall, even at 1/10th watt, than the SS.
    It's yet another false crutch that people will attempt to use to "bolster" their purely subjective preference. As I noted, the real reason is the opposite. SETs have far more distortion....but it can be the pleasing variety, depending on several factors. Including preference!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    Does low power or high power really matter.
    If you listen only to elevator music and have zero real ear training/ability, so unable to discern supressed transients, amplitude distortions, gross distortions, etc, etc, etc. no.
    If not, say you listen to symphonic music with huge dynamic swings/peaks, then yes, output power matters a great deal and having more than plenty isn't a bad idea.
    All YMMV.

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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    It's yet another false crutch that people will attempt to use to "bolster" their purely subjective preference. As I noted, the real reason is the opposite. SETs have far more distortion....but it can be the pleasing variety, depending on several factors. Including preference!!

    This is a very interesting topic and totally off track, but I have heard that is the reason so many like Tape.
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    The distortion issue is a bit more complex than it appears on its face.

    The ear's masking principle appears to play a role too. The ear also converts distortion into tonality. This is why the 2nd produces a 'warmth' and the 7th imposes a metallic quality.

    Apparently the presence of enough 2nd and 3rd (both of which are treated by the ear the same way, which is to say they both contribute to 'warmth' and the ear is otherwise relatively insensitive to them) is helpful to mask higher orders. This is why tube amps can have overall higher distortion yet sound smoother. Its also why tubes are still around; they have been 'obsolete' now for longer than they were in production. Normally when a superior art appears, it supplants the prior art, but that didn't happen in this case for a reason and IMO/IME its all about distortion- but not because people want coloration so much as they feel they are getting away from coloration!

    Most solid state amps lack not only the overall distortion but also the percentage of 2nd and 3rd, enough so that the higher orders apparently are not masked even though they are at a lower level- and the ear treats them as brightness and harshness. This coloration can be quite annoying- thus tubes.

    The problem is that a truly zero distortion amplifier is impossible- so the issue is, if the lower orders are helpful in masking the higher orders, is there a way to introduce them into a solid state amp without also significantly messing with the linearity? Apparently Nelson Pass thinks 'yes' as he has a few DIY circuits that seem to be designed around the idea that the lower orders aren't that harmful. From all accounts I've heard they sound nice too (I've only built his SIT amp which is one of the better solid state amps I've heard) so this seems to be borne out in practice. Its unfortunate that the SITs he likes aren't being made- they seemed to be a solution to the tubes/transistors debate; Sony could have done well to produce more than just power devices in this regard- a range of driver transistors would have been nice to work with too.

    In retrospect this seems typical of Sony: come up with a good idea, and then don't let anyone in on it, thus shooting themselves in the foot with the results being something that is mostly sidelined... SITs, Betamax, Elcassette, minidisk, etc.

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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    If you listen only to elevator music and have zero real ear training/ability, so unable to discern supressed transients, amplitude distortions, gross distortions, etc, etc, etc. no. If not, say you listen to symphonic music with huge dynamic swings/peaks, then yes, output power matters a great deal and having more than plenty isn't a bad idea.
    All YMMV.
    I have tubes up front with tons of power driving highly efficient speakers. i like dynamics and impact and i believe i get the best of both worlds with the combo. but that is just my perception...
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    I have tubes up front with tons of power driving highly efficient speakers. i like dynamics and impact and i believe i get the best of both worlds with the combo. but that is just my perception...
    At the end of the day, all that matters is what YOU like.

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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    At the end of the day, all that matters is what YOU like.
    Yes, preference is absolute.


    p.s. Edward and I have a mutual friend with 100+ db Avantgarde Trios, who dumped his low powered tube (SET?) amp for some 100w tube monoblocks...and hasn't looked back. Coincidentally, he's a classical guy like me.

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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Yes, preference is absolute.


    p.s. Edward and I have a mutual friend with 100+ db Avantgarde Trios, who dumped his low powered tube (SET?) amp for some 100w tube monoblocks...and hasn't looked back. Coincidentally, he's a classical guy like me.
    True. He has an OTL from Berning and it never sounded right. I loaned him these BAT VK55SE’s I took on trade and he loved them. Those Russian tubes put off major heat.


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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    That's great to hear. Basically how my system setup. 55 watt kt88 pentode tube amps running 96 DB speakers. Since adding some of the best power conditioning I've found lately, my Dynamics and overall play Astound me. I don't see any need for 200 300 400 watts.
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  43. #93

    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    In first place, I believe that the question in the title was also about the possible sonic disadvantage of tube amplifiers.
    Many years ago I had one, but from a certain point on, I started looking for the realism of reproduction,

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    What I'm talking about here is the difference between a good hifi and something that sounds like real music.
    Yeah, that´s it! (*)

    So I went in search of power, and turned to the SS.
    The truth is, I still remember a fantastic tone that i don´t know if i already reached again today.

    Quote Originally Posted by atmasphere View Post
    … the ear converts distortion into tonality;
    Would that be a lie?
    Despite of the timbre accuracy, I do not regret the option since over the years, from what I have heard within reasonable values for my pocket, I always notice some distortion / compression in the sound of the valves. Without looking at the price limits, I can say that one of the best sounds I've heard to date, if not the best, was with valves - VTL Siegfried Series Monoblocks -

    (*) Turn up the volume


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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post

    Would that be a lie?
    That the ear has this property has been understood for a decades. But I think the significance of it is not well understood.

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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Tubes just sound better to me. They have an organic quality that I don't get from solid state. As far as I'm concerned there are no disadvantages.
    Doug



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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Tubes sound better to me too. And a friend just called me from an audio show. He was listening to my speakers and said the sound was dry via the SS amp fronting them.

    I don't find the maintenance to much to deal with for the sound they make. And as I noted before. Every dead unrepairable amp I have seen is SS. The tube amps only need minor repairs to get going again.
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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Well, even though I have the SIT3 SS amp but if I have to stick with one it would be my tube amps. I can’t even imagine myself without tube amps in my system.


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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    I just hate it when people get on here and spew facts. Makes me feel really dumb. Seriously, I am truly in awe of the depth of electronics knowledge of many people on this forum. I know that some of these people are professionals in the field but I wish I had just a basic technical knowledge of electronics/electricity.

    OTOH, I do have a very sharp set of ears (if I do say so myself) and, as a long time musician, I know what they like. Maybe that's all that's really necessary? Is that the real bottom line? You know...if it sounds good it is good?

    I guess you can have crappy build quality and/or reliability, but good sound? And you can have both with ss or tubes. I'll go with whatever my ears like first, tube or ss. Reliability/build quality are a close second to that.

    FWIW, I recently auditioned a gorgeous new VAC 170i tube integrated. Superbly built and sublime sound. I auditioned it with 6 other incredible sounding amps. All the other amps were ss...Gryphon Diablo 300, NAIM Supernait 3, Luxman 509x, Simaudio 340ix, Hegel H390, and Pass Labs int 60. Out of that bunch I picked the D300 for my main listening room amp but I could be just as happy with the VAC. Beautiful sounding amp and a work of art. I would like to assemble a secondary listening area in our upstairs living room in a couple years. The VAC is definitely on my radar for an amp.

    I guess what I'm trying to say in a round about way is, superb sound quality is my main concern when choosing an amp. Whether it's a tube or ss amp is secondary to sound quality. I don't choose an amp based solely on whether it's a tube or ss amp. But that's me and my ears. YMMV.

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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    Yes, if it sounds good to you then it is good. There's nothing wrong with having a curiosity towards the technical side. Like any hobby perhaps the more you know and understand, the more you appreciate it. At the end of the day it's all about whether or not you're happy with what you have. Who really gives a shit what other people think? Besides, I have a feeling that many of these know-it-alls are just armchair internet experts.
    Doug



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    Re: Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

    I don't know I have heard crappy workmanship sounds good. Maybe, but it won't be consistent. I have heard equipment that does not spec well sounds great, and vice versa. Some of the best on paper and a scope sound like junk.
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