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  1. #51
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    You really have to wonder about the accuracy of the meters. That scenario just don't seem to hold up in real world listening.

    My Dyn's were 6 ohm and sensitivity in the mid 80's. I bought one 60 watt stereo CJ tube amp and felt I needed more power. I eventually found another of the same amp used and had both converted to mono, at around 100 watts I was alright. Then when switching to a more efficient Revel speaker the amps just wasn't doing the trick. Maybe the F52's weren't as stable, maybe due to twice as many drivers, who knows, but, facts are facts. A higher power solid state amp brought the F52's to life. That would be the Pass X250.

    If we would only use 10 watts or less leads me to questions, like why bother building the massive power amps, why bias an amp into 20 watts class A or so if the amp would never leave Class A, on and on.

    I suspect some of it is dynamics that would require power reserves and that decibels are in reality logrithmic. That still wouldn't fully account for only use 10 watts and less.
    Brian.......I understand the point you are making. There are a number of variables that impact amplifier and speaker performance, as well as volume level and dynamics. The first thing that comes to mind for me is the quality and robustness of a tube amplifier's power supply, and also the particular type of power tubes in use. If an amplifier's power supply is designed to deliver 3dB of momentary headroom over its rated power, and there aren't many amplifiers that do, the power supply would be required to momentarily deliver twice its design output capability for a very brief moment, while still maintaining its ability to deliver the continuous power rating. This is a critical point because the more robust the power supply and reserve capacitance built into the power supply is, the more likely momentary high current demands can be delivered without shortfall. What we hear is clean startling dynamics, or weak compressed dynamics. Any amplifier, and that includes high powered solid state amplifiers, can be driven to their limits, and when this takes place many irregularities show their impact on the sound. As for tube amplifiers, the type and number of power tubes that generate an amplifier's output differ with circuit designs. Some tubes cannot produce high current demands no matter what the power supply is capable of doing, while other power tubes can readily rise to momentary high current demands in stride. When driving speakers with a relatively benign impedance curve, high current reserves are not as important as when driving speakers with huge impedance swings, especially in the lowest two octaves where amplifiers deliver their highest output current. It really is a complex issue that fluctuates from one speaker/amplifier package to the next. The variables are almost infinite.

    Then there is the issue of volume level and what anyone considers their normal listening level. My comments above are based on my personal listening habits, which by the way have toned themselves down quite a bit as I grow older. Lots of folks like to rock the room, and this can require additional power or not depending on the efficiency of the speakers. I once owned a pair of old Alec Voice of the Theater speakers. These speakers were 16 ohm and rated at 102dB/1W/1M. My 30 watt tube mono block McIntosh MC30 amplifiers never broke a sweat even at window rattling, furniture vibrating sound pressure levels. You commented that your Dyn's at 6 ohms had an efficiency in the mid 80 decibels (assuming 85dB). Where 1 watt would produce 102dB of sound pressure with the old Altecs, the Dyn's would require approximately 64 watts to produce that same 102dB of sound pressure. Depending on how the Dyn's impedance curve looked at the lowest frequency range the CJ amp may just not have been the right match from the beginning. If the music had 6dB of dynamic range above average music level then the most power you could safely use without clipping the amplifier would be in the range of 16 watts output in order to have enough reserve power for the 6dB peaks.

    I reiterate, the variables of amplifier and speaker combinations are huge, as are the personal listening habits of all of us. What works for one may turn out to be totally wrong for the next person. I have experimented with many McIntosh amplifiers for over 50 years, both tube and solid state. One of my primary reasons for continuing to own McIntosh amplifiers is their philosophy of over-designing there amps. The MC75 is a perfect example. It uses the same power supply for its mono chassis as the MC275 stereo amp uses for both channels. I suspect this is one of the reasons so many people have said they prefer the MC75 over the MC275, and some have even said the prefer the MC75 over the MC2301 tube power amps. I can only speak from my personal experience, but I have never had issues with dynamic range. I did notice that the MC275's I owned, and I owned three of them, did give up a certain tautness to the lowest octave range that has never been an issue with my MC2301's. From what I have read the McIntosh MC75's more robust power supply on a mono chassis solves this issue completely. We shall find out soon enough.

    As for the accuracy of power amplifier meters I can only repeat what McIntosh says about their meters. The manuals on amplifiers with meters states: Power Output Meter The McIntosh MC601 has a large Output Watt Meter that responds 95% full scale to a single cycle tone burst at 2kHz. Voltage and current outputs are electronically measured, multiplied and fed to a special circuit that accelerates the pointer movement in the upward direction. When the pointer reaches its peak it pauses only long enough for the human eye to perceive its position, then drops. It is almost 10 times faster than a professional VU meter. A front panel switch is provided to change the meter to the Watts Hold Mode of operation. This allows fast upward movement of the pointer but greatly increases Hold Time at the peak of its travel. The highest power output of the source material is thus recorded.
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  2. #52
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    If the question is tweaked a bit to ask how much power do you need to ensure your amplifier(s) never clip - the answer can actually be calculated assuming you know all the variables i.e. loudspeaker sensitivity, listening distance, room reinforcement, max desired SPL at listening position etc. etc.

    For typical 85db/w/m speakers that answer can easily be in the hundreds of Watts.

    As shown in the Harbeth video, during the audio demonstration with dynamic music the power meters regularly read over 500 watt peaks and at times reached up to 750 watts per channel.


    The meters used have a hold setting to enable display of instantaneous peak power.


    Are the meters accurate was one question I thought about? I don’t have an answer for that. Traditionally and across many fields Swiss engineering has been world class, with a forte of precision engineering recognized worldwide as delivering superior performance and quality. I therefore think the VU meters are more than a gimmick. Further with different music (a string quartet) the peaks were far more subdued, typically below 30 watts and often below 5 watts which feels about right. Finally, Alan Shaw whilst visibly surprised by the instantaneous power reading – it was clearly more than he bargained for – did not go on to challenge the veracity of the result. Indeed in a Harbeth user group thread subsequently referencing the video, Alan admonishes the use of low power amplifiers with Harbeth speakers and states categorically that amplifiers can’t ever be too powerful.
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  3. #53
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Extremely interesting and educational thread, if I do say so myself. There seem to be far more variables regarding minimum output power than I ever realized. I thought it pretty much came down to wpc, speaker ohms and speaker sensitivity. There's much more to it than that. Things like the quality, characteristics, and performance of the power transformer also have a lot to say about minimum power requirements. I'll probably end up choosing an amp that will almost certainly satisfy my power requirements with a good margin added to that. Once again, we'll have to see (hear) what my ears tell me.

  4. #54
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    This does get confusing, the Harbeth specs for the Super HL5 says "From 25WPC" and then says "150 watt programme"

    The general definition of Programme is

    What is Watts program on a speaker?
    Program Power Ratings
    A speaker'sprogram” power rating, sometimes known as the “music” power rating, has come to mean a doubling of its continuous wattage rating. For example, a speaker rated for 400 watts continuous power would be rated for 800 watts program power.

    That would mean the Continuous rec is for 25WPC to 75WPC for these speakers.

    75WPC is a long way short of 500WPC so why would the MFG suggest such whimpy WPC rating if they can handle tons more?

    My guess is to sell more speakers to people with small amps but also get sales from those who love more power and realize the speakers can handle it.

    But then we have the debate over Good Watts vs Not so good Watts, Distortion and so on.
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  5. #55
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Don't forget the debate about type of power amp... Class A, A/B, D, Solid State, Tube, SET, etc. ... it will make your head spin.

    If you want 500 WPC you will either have an unlimited budget or be purchasing a Class D amplifier . Many people are completely happy with "far less power", many times spending more money for that "far less power".
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  6. #56
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Don't forget the debate about type of power amp... Class A, A/B, D, Solid State, Tube, SET, etc. ... it will make your head spin.

    If you want 500 WPC you will either have an unlimited budget or be purchasing a Class D amplifier . Many people are completely happy with "far less power", many times spending more money for that "far less power".
    500 WPC to drive 4 ohm speakers is not too hard-to-find at a reasonable price for a class AB amp, e.g., Parasound A21+, Bryston 4B3, Gryphon Diablo 300, McIntosh 462, to name a few.

  7. #57
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    For the averaged person (and average audiophile for that matter), $10k-$16k for an amplifier is quite high. If you consider $16,000 as reasonably price then the more power to you. I consider that rather high priced for a single audio component.
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  8. #58
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    For the averaged person (and average audiophile for that matter), $10k-$16k for an amplifier is quite high. If you consider $16,000 as reasonably price then the more power to you. I consider that rather high priced for a single audio component.
    Two of the amps mentioned list for well under $10K. I don't think the others, the most expensive of which is an integrated with its own pre-amp function, would be only for those with an 'unlimited budget.'

  9. #59
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    The output tubes brought back to mind my amps had EL-34's, the Dyn Contour were stable. If I were able to use KT-120/150 they may have driven the F52's. From what I understand the output transformers help tube and Mac amps deal with impedance swings.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
    Brian.......I understand the point you are making. There are a number of variables that impact amplifier and speaker performance, as well as volume level and dynamics. The first thing that comes to mind for me is the quality and robustness of a tube amplifier's power supply, and also the particular type of power tubes in use. If an amplifier's power supply is designed to deliver 3dB of momentary headroom over its rated power, and there aren't many amplifiers that do, the power supply would be required to momentarily deliver twice its design output capability for a very brief moment, while still maintaining its ability to deliver the continuous power rating. This is a critical point because the more robust the power supply and reserve capacitance built into the power supply is, the more likely momentary high current demands can be delivered without shortfall. What we hear is clean startling dynamics, or weak compressed dynamics. Any amplifier, and that includes high powered solid state amplifiers, can be driven to their limits, and when this takes place many irregularities show their impact on the sound. As for tube amplifiers, the type and number of power tubes that generate an amplifier's output differ with circuit designs. Some tubes cannot produce high current demands no matter what the power supply is capable of doing, while other power tubes can readily rise to momentary high current demands in stride. When driving speakers with a relatively benign impedance curve, high current reserves are not as important as when driving speakers with huge impedance swings, especially in the lowest two octaves where amplifiers deliver their highest output current. It really is a complex issue that fluctuates from one speaker/amplifier package to the next. The variables are almost infinite.

    Then there is the issue of volume level and what anyone considers their normal listening level. My comments above are based on my personal listening habits, which by the way have toned themselves down quite a bit as I grow older. Lots of folks like to rock the room, and this can require additional power or not depending on the efficiency of the speakers. I once owned a pair of old Alec Voice of the Theater speakers. These speakers were 16 ohm and rated at 102dB/1W/1M. My 30 watt tube mono block McIntosh MC30 amplifiers never broke a sweat even at window rattling, furniture vibrating sound pressure levels. You commented that your Dyn's at 6 ohms had an efficiency in the mid 80 decibels (assuming 85dB). Where 1 watt would produce 102dB of sound pressure with the old Altecs, the Dyn's would require approximately 64 watts to produce that same 102dB of sound pressure. Depending on how the Dyn's impedance curve looked at the lowest frequency range the CJ amp may just not have been the right match from the beginning. If the music had 6dB of dynamic range above average music level then the most power you could safely use without clipping the amplifier would be in the range of 16 watts output in order to have enough reserve power for the 6dB peaks.

    I reiterate, the variables of amplifier and speaker combinations are huge, as are the personal listening habits of all of us. What works for one may turn out to be totally wrong for the next person. I have experimented with many McIntosh amplifiers for over 50 years, both tube and solid state. One of my primary reasons for continuing to own McIntosh amplifiers is their philosophy of over-designing there amps. The MC75 is a perfect example. It uses the same power supply for its mono chassis as the MC275 stereo amp uses for both channels. I suspect this is one of the reasons so many people have said they prefer the MC75 over the MC275, and some have even said the prefer the MC75 over the MC2301 tube power amps. I can only speak from my personal experience, but I have never had issues with dynamic range. I did notice that the MC275's I owned, and I owned three of them, did give up a certain tautness to the lowest octave range that has never been an issue with my MC2301's. From what I have read the McIntosh MC75's more robust power supply on a mono chassis solves this issue completely. We shall find out soon enough.

    As for the accuracy of power amplifier meters I can only repeat what McIntosh says about their meters. The manuals on amplifiers with meters states: Power Output Meter The McIntosh MC601 has a large Output Watt Meter that responds 95% full scale to a single cycle tone burst at 2kHz. Voltage and current outputs are electronically measured, multiplied and fed to a special circuit that accelerates the pointer movement in the upward direction. When the pointer reaches its peak it pauses only long enough for the human eye to perceive its position, then drops. It is almost 10 times faster than a professional VU meter. A front panel switch is provided to change the meter to the Watts Hold Mode of operation. This allows fast upward movement of the pointer but greatly increases Hold Time at the peak of its travel. The highest power output of the source material is thus recorded.
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  10. #60
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by GSOphile View Post
    Two of the amps mentioned list for well under $10K. I don't think the others, the most expensive of which is an integrated with its own pre-amp function, would be only for those with an 'unlimited budget.'
    Understand, and probably mis-statement saying "unlimited budget". My point is that it is amazing how fast us audiophiles lose track of how truly expensive much of the equipment is. Still, if we consider $8000 on an amplifier, hypothetically; adding the rest of the appropriate level components and you could easily be pushing $50k, $60k, $70k. Most "normal" people would think we belong in a Looney Bin paying those kind of prices for a "stereo system"... Honestly, sometimes I agree, but I do still love my system.

    My co-workers think I am crazy having "ear buds" worth $2500, for example. Didn't even mention the Silver Dragon AK balanced cable .

    But again, the main point is, tons of WPC at "more reasonable" prices is going to fall into the Class D category. I prefer lower powered other types of amplification.
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  11. #61
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Back in March of this year, after being out of high end audio for 40 some years I decided to return to the hobby I received so much enjoyment from in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. I initially thought I'd be spending maybe $5000 max. Man, was I naive?

    Not that you can't get a decent sounding system for that. You certainly can. But when you start researching you begin to see what your money can buy. Then you start looking at more and more expensive and better sounding components. Sometimes it's kind of hard to set a budget and put the brakes on when you begin to exceed it. Before you know it you've spent many times more than you thought you would. Such is the hobby of high end home audio.

  12. #62

    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrassphile View Post
    Back in March of this year, after being out of high end audio for 40+ years I decided to return to the hobby I got so much enjoyment from in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. I initially thought I'd be spending maybe $5000 max. Man, was I naive?
    Yes, you were. You thought you were going to dive right into the deep end of the high end pool, but you found that you had to walk into the wading pool.
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  13. #63
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrassphile View Post
    Back in March of this year, after being out of high end audio for 40+ years I decided to return to the hobby I got so much enjoyment from in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. I initially thought I'd be spending maybe $5000 max. Man, was I naive?
    While a different generation, I thought I could spend the same amount and would be good to go - I became Naive and Addicted!


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  14. #64
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrassphile View Post
    Back in March of this year, after being out of high end audio for 40+ years I decided to return to the hobby I got so much enjoyment from in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. I initially thought I'd be spending maybe $5000 max. Man, was I naive?
    Tell me about it. I did a very similar thing a few years ago. Back in the day it was all about the turntable, the Nakamichi deck, etc. I even had VPI's first record cleaning machine. Talk about people thinking I was nuts .

    With raising a family, building a career, etc., I got out of this hobby. I jumped back in a few years ago. Man was there a lot to learn; so many changes. Digital was the thing... I had gotten rid of my albums long ago so I thought I could simply rip my CDs and I would be good. Then I discovered high rez downloads and various DACs.

    I also quickly learned that this crazy hobby could get astronomically expensive and out of control very quickly. I never could imagine how expensive the high end had gotten. I believe that I am doing fairly well, but the price tags shocked me. But, I also found that there are giant killers out there, diamond in the roof if you will.

    The Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2 pre-amplifier is a great example. I know people who have compared it against some of the top brands, top models and prefer the Wyred, even at 8-9 times less in pricing. There are others out there. I guess that is part of the fun. To learn your preference, to discover what does it for you. To find your diamond . Enjoy!
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Yes, you were. You thought you were going to dive right into the deep end of the high end pool, but you found that you had to walk into the wading pool.
    Yup, mep, the changes in high end home audio in that 40+ year span have been truly incredible. Digital alone directly or indirectly accounts for a huge portion of those changes. Add the influence of computers on home audio and you're just starting to scratch the surface.

  16. #66
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    For the averaged person (and average audiophile for that matter), $10k-$16k for an amplifier is quite high. If you consider $16,000 as reasonably price then the more power to you. I consider that rather high priced for a single audio component.

    That price range would pretty much squeeze all the juice out of my budget, at least for an amp. I'd really have to keep the spending for anything else at a minimum.

  17. #67

    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    The question to me is how are you out of this hobby for 40 years? I was hooked when I got my big pioneer set at the age of 16 and never really out of it.

  18. #68
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    The question to me is how are you out of this hobby for 40 years? I was hooked when I got my big pioneer set at the age of 16 and never really out of it.

    Life happens.

  19. #69

    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrassphile View Post
    Life happens.
    Fair enough. Glad you’re back.

  20. #70
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    Fair enough. Glad you’re back.
    Thank you. The last 40+ years of my life is a very long story. Almost all good though. Just waaaayyyyy too long to post.

  21. #71
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    I like overkill. My main speakers are 92 dB sensitive 2-way monitors at 8 Ohm impedance, and I use an amp of 100W/ch into 8 Ohms (130 W/ch into 4 Ohms). The monitors can easily be driven with great dynamics by a 15 W/ch amp (have tried it). But with my current amp dynamics are even better.

    My JL Audio subs each have an internal amp of 1800 W.

    I would agree though with what has been pointed out, that high power does not guarantee great transient performance. Larger amps sometimes are more sluggish, so it all depends. Better judging with your ears rather than a rulebook.
    I like overkill as well. I have 1000w/ch mono blocks going to my speakers.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Preamp/Digital: Meitner MA3
    HT Processor: Bryston SP3
    Amps: Bryston 14b3, Bryston 4b3
    Speakers: Kef Reference 5, Kef Reference 4c
    Sub: REL Carbon Special
    Power: Shunyata Denali, Bryston BIT15
    Wires: Wireworld Silver Eclipse XLR & SC, Ethernet - WW Platinum USB
    Other: Stillpoint Ultra SS, ISO-Acoustics ISO Pucks

    -Kyle

  22. #72
    Senior Member
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    Re: How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

    "[...I also quickly learned that this crazy hobby could get astronomically expensive and out of control very quickly....]"


    You're talkin' to me, right?
    Out of control, indeed. Pretty much says it all.

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How much power (wpc) is more than enough for most speakers and systems?

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