Would you abandon your expensive cables if there was a much cheaper alternative?

[Mike B.]

In my experience the rising cost usually means better performance. But occasionally a product comes along which defies this axiom. Two cables I think do it are the Duelund tinned copper wire in oiled cloth and the Audio Envy cables. The Duelund wire is small in stature and does not look like the typical expensive offering. No active shielding, etc. Would looks and low cost bother you?

[MikeCh]

Would looks and low cost bother you?

No, but I am biased.

[jadedavid]

In answer to your original question, absolutely.
However after trying many many cables, including the ones you mention, I have not found any of the truly inexpensive cables that perform well in MY SYSTEM.
I have found moderately priced cables from boutique companies that punch way above their pay grade.
I have found cables to be very system dependent. What works in your system may not work in mine.
Cables are like spice is to cooking.
The better cables have traits that any of the entry/diy cables that I have tried don't.
YMMV

[Penthouse-D]

Yes. I did.. I've owned many expensive cables. I now use Furutech NCF products. About 25% of the cost of most "average" priced brands. I'm also getting better results. I recently saw the same Furutech NCF products used on a $15K power cord......

[Mike]

Sure!


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[Speedskater]

If I was offered the choice of any expensive audiophile cables or Blue Jeans Cables ( with the understanding that I had to keep them and couldn't resell them) I would chose the Blue Jeans Cables.

[UltraFast69]

I wouldn’t abandon my cables, I would sell my cables under the premise newco comes over sets them up and leaves them until I am satisfied, then assuming the case writes me a check upon a mutually agreed upon price thinking there will be a difference - short of that I’m done, in a positive way.


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[kiwi_1282001]

Generally No.

Despite enjoying my current Ansuz cables i've kept many of my earlier cables. The earlier cables are useful for comparative purposes and don't take much space to store. Sometimes earlier cables find a second use in a less obvious part of your audio system, for example routers, WiFi etc.

[Nikhil]

In my experience the rising cost usually means better performance. But occasionally a product comes along which defies this axiom. Two cables I think do it are the Duelund tinned copper wire in oiled cloth and the Audio Envy cables. The Duelund wire is small in stature and does not look like the typical expensive offering. No active shielding, etc. Would looks and low cost bother you?

Already have. Not that mine were very expensive to begin with but they were custom built pure copper cables.
After trying Western Electric and Duelund, I'm now trying out Belden 8477 as speaker cable.

It's a 12 awg Tinned Copper design that will make you smile from cheek to cheek when you see the price.
https://catalog.belden.com/index.cfm?event=pd&p=PF_8477



.

[asindc]

Yes.

[aKnyght]

i have been surfing this wave for a few years now... and, i am loving my relatively inexpensive speaker and interconnect cables from a small, boutique manufacturer. both use tinned-copper conductor wires and the IC cables are shielded.

imo, they offer a very good price/performance ratio and there is no compromise on looks / aesthetics.

note: jeff day has done a tremendous amount of work and writing on the tinned-copper conductor wires from dueland coherent audio (see this positve feedback article) which inspired me to give them a try... it was love at first listen although i have since switched to cables using the western electric tinned-copper wire, which i prefer.

always open to alternatives -- but, i am pretty darn happy with my current analog cables which are in line with the OPs thesis.

[Jim Smith]

I bought all of my Duelunds because I liked them best. In my case, they replaced my previous favorite Western Electric cables. The fact that they were inexpensive was not in the equation, but it didn't hurt...

As far as speaker cables go, I need to hear if the much less efficient Joseph Audios - estimated @88dB 1w/1m vs. my previous Tannoys @96 db 1w/1m - might benefit from another cable.

[aKnyght]

I bought all of my Duelunds because I liked them best. The fact that they were inexpensive was not in the equation, but it didn't hurt...

+1 ...exactly what i was trying to say - just much more succinct and straight to the point.

[Andik777]

After trying several cables in my equipment (expensive and cheap) I came to a conclusion, no matter the price of the cables, you have to find cables that work well with the equipment.

[nicoff]

Yes. My expensive cables were BJC. I ended up abandoning them for cheaper Duelund cables.

[Mechnutt]

Absolutely. I use Belden 8402 XLR's which sound better than my AQ Columbia 72v DBS. They were a revelation. But I have never tried $1K or better cables in my system.

[Andik777]

I don't want it to sound like a blurb, I tested the cables (balanced and for the speakers) PAD Aqueous Aureas and I loved how it sounded in my set, but unfortunately I could not buy it, therefore I bought the Musaeus Revision Luminist, they sound good but they are already for sale, if I sell them I buy the Aqueous Aureas.

[Mike B.]

My posting this thread was partly motivated by a person who posted at another site. He was embarrassed by the diminutive size of the Duelund speaker wires he loves. So he placed them inside larger tubing and put some attractive flexible covers on them and nice gold plated spades. Said they didn't look audiophile enough bare

[nicoff]

....
So he placed them inside larger tubing and put some attractive flexible covers on them and nice gold plated spades. Said they didn't look audiophile enough bare

He should start a cable business!

[Spock]

So he placed them inside larger tubing and put some attractive flexible covers on them and nice gold plated spades. Said they didn't look audiophile enough bare

Probably he made a mistake.

One day i tried to separate the conductors of the speaker cable i had.
The sound became strange, thin, but more dynamic with more air and much less compression.
Then i put them close again. The bass has return but i can´t stand it anymore. It was no bass. It was a shadow, a veil in the sound. Reading, i discovery they call it crosstalk.
Then, i tried to put some shielding around each conductor. And at first it seems to work well. Everything seems to be more liquid and the background was now really dark. With time became clear ir was horrible, it become compressed. Strange, because without shield it was dirty and mixed and with it was clean but compressed. But much, much better when putting the shield at some distance from the conductor.

And i thinked to myself: ah, that´s because of that some cables are so wide. Now that i understand i wiil never make fun of the big hoses.

After these experiences, almost all the market cables that i tried seemed to had these problems. Some of them were to thin, while most of others had that horrible shadow in the mids. And i think, what the hell, it seems nobody knows exactly what they are doing. Manufacturers are doing it by trial and error. Why can´t I do the same? So i keep on trying by myself.

Yes, i never tried really expensive market cables except my indispensable interconnect Ortofon (about 1.500 € - can we say that is expensive?) but i found some of these issues (dark; veil sound) in so many big systems that i can almost swear that they were cable problems.
So...

[Joseph R.]

Yes, Better is better regardless of cost. At one time my cables were all silver. I loved the liveliness and extension. In time this became tiresome. Presently I have zero silver cables in my rig, I found copper cables that were simply the “right” balance. And surprisingly cheaper. I am using all Burley IC’s (originally from Pass Labs). I just “downgraded” my speaker cable to Analysis Plus. Beside being sick of garden hose variety speaker cable, the thinner, more manageable cables sound better. My eyes were opened when I borrowed a pair of Mapleshade speaker cables from a friend. Although they ended up not to be the best fit, these super thin, solid core cables were amazing. I loved their ease of use so much, I went on a quest to find a flexible, user friendly cable. The A+ did this. A significant sound improvement was icing on the cake.

[hifinutt]

Had a friend here yesterday listening to the system . He was rather blown away by it as i am . It uses 2.5 van damme studio speaker cable which cost approx 23 pounds excluding the wbt connectors . I dont think you have to have expensive cable for marvellous sound . I notice that in The UK many forums are mainly cable sceptic which is different to USA i think

[Joseph R.]

I assume “cable sceptic” translates to “cable skeptic” in USA lingo. Not being derogatory in any way, just clarifying. I would have preferred being a cable skeptic, as it would have saved me thousands of dollars. But I think any dyed-in-the-wool audiophile recognizes how contributory cables are to any audio system. Whereas I don’t believe cables must be expensive to be good, I wish I could afford the really expensive stuff. I find it intriguing as to where the “high price spread” could take a system. I guess that's why I keep purchasing cables. As soon as I hear something amiss I assume a new cable could rectify it. In most cases I can find a “better fit”.

[Kingrex]

This question irritates me. At it's core it tries to say, inexpensive cables sound as good as expensive. Or so I read. Such an incorrect statement on all levels. Many others have correctly noted cables are system dependent. More correct IMO is there are sleeper cables that are good value and sound.

The real question everyone wants to know is how do I find the lowest price best quality cable (sleepers) that works well in my system. Thats the question. The answer to the OP question is Of Course. If 2 cables where indistinguishable from each other in all parameters and one was a factor more expensive than the other, well then of course you would buy the less expensive cable. And the bigger problem to my point is how do you ever get your hands on all those cables to try in your own system. And, do you have time. Yes the cable company lets you try and buy what they have.

[Jim Smith]

This question irritates me. At it's core it tries to say, inexpensive cables sound as good as expensive. Or so I read. Such an incorrect statement on all levels.

Agreed. Some inexpensive cables are not as good as some more expensive cables. They are better.

But it's always system dependent, IMO.

[Kingrex]

I disagree Jim. I've listened to enough Western Electric as speaker and interconnects and Duelund as Speaker cables. They're a decent cable for the money. But the sleeper cables I refer to by well-known companies that do cost more money, in the end walk all over the Western Electric and Duelund. They're are a lot better.

There is a level of system dependency. My take is it the duelund and Western Electric tin coated wire is a good entry-level wire that's going to suit a guy with a thousand to $5,000 stereo just fine. But a guy with a $30,000 system is going to hear a difference when he puts in a cable that really shines from a quality manufacturer that is of a reasonable price. In my opinion the gray area is between those sleeper cables and the $5,000 to $10,000 to $15,000 cables.

By the way, who uses tin for interconnects, speaker, or power cables from any reputable company. I don't think any do. I believe the whole purpose of tin is to reduce oxidization on cloth coated conductor. But my understanding is tin has a sound. I also believe most people say our objective in creating good audio is to eliminate all sounds and just pass a clean signal.

[Jim Smith]

I disagree Jim.

As I disagree with you - having made countless comparisons.

I tend to think the system - especially the speakers & their efficiency - matter more in this case.

However, I am not one who listens for technically correct sound aspects - the sound is only of interest to me if I am transported into the music, becoming greatly involved in it's emotional impact. I use these same standards when voicing systems, for better or worse.

For me at least, Dynamics, Presence, & Tone are the primary producers of musical engagement. And I have found that the various Duelund interconnects & speaker cables do that. It's not about price at all - again, for me.

But I still think it is system and - for that matter - personal taste - dependent...

[Kingrex]

Ok, true. I have owned 3 sets of WE speaker cable, 1 WE interconnect and 1 Duelund speaker cable, so I don't have much experience.

I also don't disagree with anything else you said in regards to the cables providing you it pleasing musical experience.

[Elberoth]

I disagree Jim. I've listened to enough Western Electric as speaker and interconnects and Duelund as Speaker cables. They're a decent cable for the money. But the sleeper cables I refer to by well-known companies that do cost more money, in the end walk all over the Western Electric and Duelund. They're are a lot better.

There is a level of system dependency. My take is it the duelund and Western Electric tin coated wire is a good entry-level wire that's going to suit a guy with a thousand to $5,000 stereo just fine. But a guy with a $30,000 system is going to hear a difference when he puts in a cable that really shines from a quality manufacturer that is of a reasonable price. In my opinion the gray area is between those sleeper cables and the $5,000 to $10,000 to $15,000 cables.

By the way, who uses tin for interconnects, speaker, or power cables from any reputable company. I don't think any do. I believe the whole purpose of tin is to reduce oxidization on cloth coated conductor. But my understanding is tin has a sound. I also believe most people say our objective in creating good audio is to eliminate all sounds and just pass a clean signal.

I wouldn't say that better myself. I own WE16GA and Duelund equivalent. I keep them as sometimes they are handy when testing various setups. They are dirt cheap, so why not. GREAT cables ... for the money.

But then again - there are lots of great cheap cables on the market. Tara Labs Apollo entry line is outstanding for example. Most people interested in $10k don't even realise how much performance can be had for this little money nowadays.

[kzhtoo]

...a guy with a $30,000 system is going to hear a difference when he puts in a cable that really shines from a quality manufacturer that is of a reasonable price.

Yep. And a guy with a good power foundation.

[nicoff]

.....

In my opinion the gray area is between those sleeper cables and the $5,000 to $10,000 to $15,000 cables.

By the way, who uses tin for interconnects, speaker, or power cables from any reputable company. I don't think any do. I believe the whole purpose of tin is to reduce oxidization on cloth coated conductor. But my understanding is tin has a sound. I also believe most people say our objective in creating good audio is to eliminate all sounds and just pass a clean signal.

I am perfectly happy using cheap Duelund speaker cables in a system that meets your criteria for being able to show off what those expensive cables can do and quite frankly I don't feel that I am missing anything. I am with Jim Smith on this one.

[Elberoth]

Those tinned copper cables certainly have their own flavor (both Duelund and WE sound quite similar). Not the most resolving cables around, but they do get the tone right.

[Spock]

Some inexpensive cables are not as good as some more expensive cables. They are better.

Because geometry counts a lot, I believe that, looking for the best solution and the ultimate discovery, sometimes things get complicated and the end result turns out to be worse.

I suspect the two extremes: very expensive and very cheap cables.

For me, no cheap cable can be a good cable because even when I use a cheap conductor and put 2 layers of shielding on it, and then I connect a few good terminals, it is not that cheap anymore.

A long time ago a friend of mine says that Belden cables provides all an high end audio system needs. So I try a Belden interconnect. And thought to myself: this is not a cable for those who live searching for the best audio playback. When he asked me what I found I said to him, yes, yes they are very good!

…But my understanding is tin has a sound. I also believe most people say our objective in creating good audio is to eliminate all sounds and just pass a clean signal.

And I don't like tinned cables either. I think they change the tone.

[jadedavid]

FYI. Viablue, a German Mfg of cables and connectors, uses different metals in their cables to obtain various results.
Their top end speaker cables (from the website) use a blend of three different metals. Silver for the highs, Tinned copper for the mids and bare solid copper for the lows.
I find many cables get a lot of the tone and dynamics right.
However what they are missing is the soundstaging, dimensionality, imaging and other aspects that could additionally bring me closer to being transported to a musical venue.
I have found cables to be VERY system dependent.
YMMV

[BlueFox]

Not sure what ‘expensive’ means, but if I were looking for new cables, and there was a cable at a lower price that sounded better than my current cable, then the answer is yes.

[UltraFast69]

At RMAF, all the top tier systems I liked, and considered shop stoppers were connected using Nordost and this was the first time where I could equate that the cables do leave a signature as it was evident not only between the exhibitors but also in my sound as well.

I like my system very much and while I believe the cables are over the top expensive, actually stupid expensive, I have no regrets.

You would have to do an in-house demo to convince me to make a change.


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[Kingrex]

That price list of cables you sent in your show report is at least three times the cost of my entire system. I like most of the cables in my system so in essence you could say I'm using a less expensive alternative cable that works well for me. I have about $7k total in cabling including my custom power strip and OFC cord from the panel to my rack.

Ed, its time to install your dedicated power feed.

[UltraFast69]

That price list of cables you sent in your show report is at least three times the cost of my entire system. I like most of the cables in my system so in essence you could say I'm using a less expensive alternative cable that works well for me. I have about $7k total in cabling including my custom power strip and OFC cord from the panel to my rack.

Ed, its time to install your dedicated power feed.

You mean this list? Pocket change



Rex, you mean additional dedicated lines, 10 Gauge OFC


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[brad225]

UF69 quote "Pocket Change"

If it is pocket change, I hope you wear industrial suspenders. If not your pants will be at your ankles. :-)

[UltraFast69]

UF69 quote "Pocket Change"

If it is pocket change, I hope you wear industrial suspenders. If not your pants will be at your ankles. :-)

Totally sarcastic!

But also know not everyone can drive a Rolls Royce, or for that matter prefer to, in the end it’s all subjective to ones desire.


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[Kingrex]

Ultrafast keeps a fistful of gold coins just for impulse purchases.

[brad225]

I was under the impression you were not making a serious statement UltraFast. I understand purchasing is a mater of what something is worth to you.

[hifinutt]

At a big hi fi show in Uk , one chap wired up his amazing sounding speakers with mains cable [twin and earth cable] just to demonstrate you don`t need expensive cables [ this is an amateur hi fi show where folks bring all their kit to set up in rooms ]

[Shadowfax]

At a big hi fi show in Uk , one chap wired up his amazing sounding speakers with mains cable [twin and earth cable] just to demonstrate you don`t need expensive cables [ this is an amateur hi fi show where folks bring all their kit to set up in rooms ]

Not "Needing" and "Sound Different" are 2 different things.

The Vintage guys at AK swear by Lamp cord or extension cords for Speaker Wire because the speakers deliver sound when connected.

So the question remains, Do you want sound, or do you want good sound?

[Kingrex]

You know when I do use inexpensive speaker wire. When I am wiring rear satellite speakers. I use 14 or 12 awg romex. It sounds just fine for the money in that application.

[Shadowfax]

You know when I do use inexpensive speaker wire. When I am wiring rear satellite speakers. I use 14 or 12 awg romex. It sounds just fine for the money in that application.

I have a set of speakers in my family room driven by a receiver in my living room. The wiring is spliced together with probably 4 different gauges of did-similar wire.

Nobody would really know because the placement of these speakers in built in corner cabinets projects the best imaging and stage over my expensive main system.

[Kingrex]

I have a set of speakers in my family room driven by a receiver in my living room. The wiring is spliced together with probably 4 different gauges of did-similar wire.

Nobody would really know because the placement of these speakers in built in corner cabinets projects the best imaging and stage over my expensive main system.

How Funny. Go figure. Why do you think corner speakers do as such?

[atmasphere]

I did- many years ago. Starting In the early 1970s I noticed that you could hang Neumann microphones over the orchestra and the mic feed sounded amazing! A the time I there were no exotic interconnect cable companies but then I met Robert Fulton and went down that path for a while (in case anyone doesn't know, Robert Fulton of FMI produced the first high end audio cables anywhere back in the 1970s).

But I remembered my experience playing in the orchestra. So when I developed my own amps and preamps I made sure they supported balanced line operation- which then as now has a set of standards. What I found was that if you supported the standards (in particular, low impedance drive ability and ignoring ground) then the interconnect didn't make any difference in the system! This allowed my to place my amps right by the speakers and that meant shorter speaker cables, for which the system also improved.

Over the last 35 years or so all that I have seen is that if you support the balanced standard (now known as AES48) then you don't need expensive interconnect cables because all cables will sound very very similar and its not worth writing to a forum about the differences. But- and I have found this to be a big one- the vast majority of audiophile balanced line products don't support the standard and as a result, most audiophiles really haven't heard what that brings to the table.

So anyone that is curious and has heard a recording made in the 1950s might actually already have an answer to their questions. All the recordings made in the Golden Age of Stereo were done with balanced line connections. Imagine sending a microphone signal 200 feet without degradation, such that decades later, as your stereo improves all that happens is those classic LPs sound better and better. You don't 'hear' the cables; this was 20 years before Fulton came along.

The only reason no-one brought balanced line into the home before we did was because it was expensive- the only way to do it right before we came along was with line transformers which are expensive. Eico certainly wasn't going to install them; neither was Fisher, H/K or any of their successors. We sorted out and patented a transformerless means of supporting the standard.

But if you want a way to finally get off the cable merry go round (since if you don't, next year there will the next latest and greatest) quite simply the means to do it has been in existence for 60 years.

[Spock]

…Their top end speaker cables (from the website) use a blend of three different metals. Silver for the highs, Tinned copper for the mids and bare solid copper for the lows.

This could be a perfect example of what I meant when I wrote

Because geometry counts a lot, I believe that, looking for the best solution and the ultimate discovery, sometimes things get complicated and the end result turns out to be worse.

[still-one]

Back when I owned B&W 802D's I used Synergistic Research B&W Spec cables. If I remember correctly the split towards the speaker end into biwire that connected to the mid's and woofers. I believe one was silver the other copper.