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  1. #1

    Room Treatments Advice

    I am considering adding room treatments to my listening room. I found a local shop that manufactures and sells acoustic treatments.
    They can come to my place, run a RT60 test to determine the characteristics of my room and make recommendations for treatments.
    Has anyone here gone through that process? If so, any suggestions and/or recommendations of what I should be looking for or asking for?

  2. #2
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Acoustic Frontiers designed my media room with emphasis on stereo music listening, acoustically measured the room, and provided the wall hanging acoustic panels mainly from RPG. Acoustic Frontiers has a VG website explaining what's involved in improving room acoustics.
    http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/services/
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  3. #3
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I am considering adding room treatments to my listening room.
    To address what audible issues?

  4. #4

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    To address what audible issues?
    For one, my speaker manufacturer recommends diffusers. I added a few plants but I have seen folks using more substantial diffuser panels. Other than that, I don’t know if I need anything else. Asking around to see what others have done and how they determined what they needed.

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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    For one, my speaker manufacturer recommends diffusers.
    Ok. What audible issue did you tell them you were experiencing and where did they tell you to place what specifically?
    Would you mind me asking what speakers?

  6. #6

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Ok. What audible issue did you tell them you were experiencing and where did they tell you to place what specifically?
    Would you mind me asking what speakers?
    I only spoke with a salesperson. I did not tell them what I needed (as far as treatment).

    They have not told me anything yet.
    One of their services is to do a site visit (for a price) and do a test (RT60). That’s where I stand right now.

    I have Omni polar speakers.

    Thank you!!

  7. #7

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Most of the better known acoustic treatment companies out there should be able to work with you from sketches of your room and propose a plan of effective treatment. ASC certainly was glad to help me when I was designing my room.

  8. #8

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Most of the better known acoustic treatment companies out there should be able to work with you from sketches of your room and propose a plan of effective treatment. ASC certainly was glad to help me when I was designing my room.
    Thank you!
    From what I have seen, they offer a similar long-distance service as the one that you describe. However, the fact that the company is local and offers to do a site visit (not free) is appealing to me since they will be able to take measurements of the room and physically see the room.

  9. #9

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Thank you!
    From what I have seen, they offer a similar long-distance service as the one that you describe. However, the fact that the company is local and offers to do a site visit (not free) is appealing to me since they will be able to tale measurements of the room and physically see the room.
    May want to do some research as to what they will offer you and how it compares to others in price and quality. Caveat Emptor applies here.

  10. #10

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Wondering if anybody done a RT60 test in their music room and what they did afterwards.

  11. #11

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Wondering if anybody done a RT60 test in their music room and what they did afterwards.
    It's not like RT60 will tell them "exactly" where and what needs treatment. It is just a general snap shot of what the room sounds like. It measures how long a sound takes to decay 60dB. The rest is knowledge of where to place bass traps, absorption and diffusing panels. The before and after RT60 comparison is the confirmation of improvement.

    What I did was consult with ASC and expressed my desire to have a room that is well balanced, not overly damped and not overly live. We went back and forth and here is what the result was with which I was very happy but I did my homework beforehand.


    https://youtu.be/a3i_DETaCg0

  12. #12

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Here is what RT60 test looks like. Very scientific LOL. The main part is knowing "how" to treat properly for the desired results. https://youtu.be/62o42C1LzQ8

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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Years ago I had an RT60 measurement done. Since then I bought some ceiling panels 3 panels of 180*120cm aprox.

    Music was not the only reason for the panels. Whenever there were more than 6 people in my living room it got hard to have a discussion, everyone needed to shout. My room is about 4.1*6.5 meter

    Now I'm saving money to buy some diffuses that I want to place on the walls at the first reflection point.

    My measurement. But that was made a long time ago with a different floor and different furniture.

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  14. #14

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    Years ago I had an RT60 measurement done. Since then I bought some ceiling panels 3 panels of 180*120cm aprox.

    Music was not the only reason for the panels. Whenever there were more than 6 people in my living room it got hard to have a discussion, everyone needed to shout.
    There's a whole lot of '' new hip type'' cafes and restaurants that ought to read this thread!

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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Most of the better known acoustic treatment companies out there should be able to work with you from sketches of your room and propose a plan of effective treatment. ASC certainly was glad to help me when I was designing my room.
    While I am sure that individual results vary, I was very dissapointed with the (lack of) service I received from ASC.
    I don't know if the rep was new or what. I was looking for specific reccomendations and all the rep would say is "well you could do this" or "you could do that" without ever offering any specifics.
    I was in the process of dividing off the very long room in my basement to make an audio room.
    I repeatedly ask for a specific plan concerning optimal room size, ceiling and floor construction, absorption and diffusion treatment. All that he would offer were "multiple possible options" with no declaration that any of these "options" would actually be the way to go for the acoustics of my room.
    Not what I would expect from a professional company.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I only spoke with a salesperson. I did not tell them what I needed (as far as treatment).

    They have not told me anything yet.
    One of their services is to do a site visit (for a price) and do a test (RT60). That’s where I stand right now.

    I have Omni polar speakers.

    Thank you!!
    Well, to "treat" acoustic issues, it would be helpful to know what those perceptual issues are (you still haven't stated) and also as many specifics as possible, such as the actual model of speaker, where they are placed and the size/composition of your room. Or, one could play the audiophile/studiophile blindfold/dartboard game, which is always interconnected to bank account.
    Very generally speaking, if your speakers are true omni, it may be helpful to have diffusion on front wall (behind speaker). Depending on the spectral smoothness (or not) of the off axis laterally, it may be helpful to use a combination of bandwidth targeted diffusion/absorption. Or it may makes things audibly worse, but visually cooler, more fashionable, which may override the audible thing. YMMV.
    Regarding RT60, I highly, highly doubt your room is enormous enough to have a statistically diffuse field. So application in smaller/listening size rooms is inappropriate. But of course it can generate cool looking sciency graphs for the eyes and make microphones happy, which often translates to "better" sound (except in "trust ears" tests).
    Unfortunately, our binaural hearing system works quite differently than single pressure microphones.
    As always, YMMV. Good luck!

    cheers,

    AJ

  17. #17

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jadedavid View Post
    While I am sure that individual results vary, I was very dissapointed with the (lack of) service I received from ASC.
    I don't know if the rep was new or what. I was looking for specific reccomendations and all the rep would say is "well you could do this" or "you could do that" without ever offering any specifics.
    I was in the process of dividing off the very long room in my basement to make an audio room.
    I repeatedly ask for a specific plan concerning optimal room size, ceiling and floor construction, absorption and diffusion treatment. All that he would offer were "multiple possible options" with no declaration that any of these "options" would actually be the way to go for the acoustics of my room.
    Not what I would expect from a professional company.
    That’s why I mentioned I did my “homework” in advance. There are companies out there that will come out and do a complete job from soup to nuts. The cost is obviously night and day difference. What may be reasonable for commercial applications is often prohibitive for a simple audiophile room but everyone has their own concept of how important and how far they want to take the project.

    I will say this. A properly designed and treated room is more effective than any upgrade in components or speakers. Without a properly treated and a “problematic” room, one can hardly ever experience what the speakers can and should sound like, no matter their price.

    There are quite a few articles out there on how to treat your room. It doesn’t have to be viewed as rocket science either.

  18. #18

    Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Well, to "treat" acoustic issues, it would be helpful to know what those perceptual issues are (you still haven't stated) and also as many specifics as possible, such as the actual model of speaker, where they are placed and the size/composition of your room. Or, one could play the audiophile/studiophile blindfold/dartboard game, which is always interconnected to bank account.
    Very generally speaking, if your speakers are true omni, it may be helpful to have diffusion on front wall (behind speaker). Depending on the spectral smoothness (or not) of the off axis laterally, it may be helpful to use a combination of bandwidth targeted diffusion/absorption. Or it may makes things audibly worse, but visually cooler, more fashionable, which may override the audible thing. YMMV.
    Regarding RT60, I highly, highly doubt your room is enormous enough to have a statistically diffuse field. So application in smaller/listening size rooms is inappropriate. But of course it can generate cool looking sciency graphs for the eyes and make microphones happy, which often translates to "better" sound (except in "trust ears" tests).
    Unfortunately, our binaural hearing system works quite differently than single pressure microphones.
    As always, YMMV. Good luck!

    cheers,

    AJ
    I am looking for more scientific approach than a subjective or “perceptual”.

    I once had an expert set my speakers and subs; he did not use any measuring devices. And while the end result was better than what I had done on my own, I always wondered if I had truly maximized what my system could do.

    My room is about 18’ x 26’ x 10.5’. If what you are saying is that the RT60 for a room that size is inappropriate or will not yield meaningful results, then my question remains:

    What would be the best way to go about adding room treatments?

    Again, I am interested in a scientific approach as opposed to a subjective approach.

    Thanks!

  19. #19

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jadedavid View Post
    While I am sure that individual results vary, I was very dissapointed with the (lack of) service I received from ASC.
    I don't know if the rep was new or what. I was looking for specific reccomendations and all the rep would say is "well you could do this" or "you could do that" without ever offering any specifics.
    I was in the process of dividing off the very long room in my basement to make an audio room.
    I repeatedly ask for a specific plan concerning optimal room size, ceiling and floor construction, absorption and diffusion treatment. All that he would offer were "multiple possible options" with no declaration that any of these "options" would actually be the way to go for the acoustics of my room.
    Not what I would expect from a professional company.
    I didn’t realize that ASC was in the business of designing stereo rooms for free.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Vicoustics has a service where you print off graph paper from their website, draw to scale your room on it, with speaker placement and seating position, etc. and then they give you three proposals: good, better, best. 3D drawings accompany them.

    It’s free if you buy their products, otherwise it’s around $50.


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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jadedavid View Post
    While I am sure that individual results vary, I was very dissapointed with the (lack of) service I received from ASC.
    I don't know if the rep was new or what. I was looking for specific reccomendations and all the rep would say is "well you could do this" or "you could do that" without ever offering any specifics.
    I was in the process of dividing off the very long room in my basement to make an audio room.
    I repeatedly ask for a specific plan concerning optimal room size, ceiling and floor construction, absorption and diffusion treatment. All that he would offer were "multiple possible options" with no declaration that any of these "options" would actually be the way to go for the acoustics of my room.
    Not what I would expect from a professional company.
    If you already have a room, ASC will generally give you (i.e., free) pretty detailed, prioritized recommendations for room treatment. If you want help designing a room, they offer a service for that also, but it is not free.
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    I didn’t realize that ASC was in the business of designing stereo rooms for free.
    The person I spoke with never mentioned any other services available either free or for a charge.
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  23. #23
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I am looking for more scientific approach than a subjective
    Good, me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    or “perceptual”.
    Bad. the science is perceptual.
    That's why i asked if you wanted to make a microphone happy, or your ears. Not always the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    What would be the best way to go about adding room treatments?
    Same as if you went to Dr for medical treatments.
    You tell them what the symptoms are, where you feel pain, or dizziness or whatever.
    He measures you, prescribes treatments.
    You still have not stated a single symptom. You won't name your speakers. There is nothing yet to "treat", unless you mean your eyes.
    It's very fashionable in audiophile circles to have stuff stuck all over rooms, no matter how ridiculous perceptually and anti-science they are. Looks cool though.

    cheers,

    AJ

  24. #24

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jadedavid View Post
    The person I spoke with never mentioned any other services available either free or for a charge.
    Let's take a look at what you said in your first post:

    Quote Originally Posted by jadedavid View Post
    While I am sure that individual results vary, I was very dissapointed with the (lack of) service I received from ASC.
    I don't know if the rep was new or what. I was looking for specific reccomendations and all the rep would say is "well you could do this" or "you could do that" without ever offering any specifics.
    I was in the process of dividing off the very long room in my basement to make an audio room.
    I repeatedly ask for a specific plan concerning optimal room size, ceiling and floor construction, absorption and diffusion treatment. All that he would offer were "multiple possible options" with no declaration that any of these "options" would actually be the way to go for the acoustics of my room.
    Not what I would expect from a professional company.
    You were "in the process of dividing off the very long room in my basement to make an audio room." You call up ASC and ask their rep to help you figure out how to design your room and you want to know where to put room treatments in your fictional room. No wonder he gave you "multiple possible options" because there wasn't really anything to work with. You had no room, you weren't sure of the room dimensions because you were looking for someone to tell you the optimum room dimensions you should build your room to, and of course he had no idea of what your room would look like if it was ever built, what equipment makes up your system, and the room treatments you would need. All he could really do based on your phone call was to give you what he gave you which was multiple possible options. And then you post here that this was not what you would expect from a professional company.

    Seriously...
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  25. #25
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I will say this. A properly designed and treated room is more effective than any upgrade in components or speakers. Without a properly treated and a “problematic” room, one can hardly ever experience what the speakers can and should sound like, no matter their price.
    That's not what science found. The exact opposite. Toole and others research, showed that (different) speaker rankings did not change with various rooms. If the room effect had higher weighting than speakers, that would not happen. But it did.
    Further, he and many others tested listeners in treated/untreated rooms. Including "Audio pros" who swear by treatment.
    For "end user", not studio work listening, the vast majority preferred untreated in "trust ears" tests.
    When Dr Toole published his book, which is a compilation of his and a mountain of others research, this generated an uproar among Studiophile believers. It conflicted badly with their "knowledge" and beliefs. Certain "treatment" peddlers lashed out with word salad articles (but zero blind listening tests to the contrary, of course). He tested all the wrong people (sound familiar?). Studio pros "know" that treatments are beneficial for mixing due to their self training, etc, so it must also be better for at home listening, despite Toole et als evidence.
    That lead to this, "middle of saga" study: http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20190717/16640.pdf
    http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16640

    0.2 Historical Context
    The impetus for this research was provided by research conducted by F. E. Toole. In his recent book Sound Reproduction, he concludes that the listener can adapt to reflections in a room and can also clearly distinguish between acoustic comb filtering in the listening room (caused by differences of arrival between the direct and reflected sound)from the direct sound itself [1]
    Sorry, the first link cannot be accessed without AES membership, but if you can, there it is. The 2nd is a summary. It tested now just "Studio Pros" and their "trained" hearing.
    Can you guess the results?

    I'm not saying the room doesn't matter. But the evidence for turning into an iso-ward padded cell for better perception, is not there, audibly.
    Visually and maybe to be appropriate for audiophiles, sure.

    cheers,

    AJ

  26. #26

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    That's not what science found. The exact opposite. Toole and others research, showed that (different) speaker rankings did not change with various rooms. If the room effect had higher weighting than speakers, that would not happen. But it did.
    Further, he and many others tested listeners in treated/untreated rooms. Including "Audio pros" who swear by treatment.
    For "end user", not studio work listening, the vast majority preferred untreated in "trust ears" tests.
    When Dr Toole published his book, which is a compilation of his and a mountain of others research, this generated an uproar among Studiophile believers. It conflicted badly with their "knowledge" and beliefs. Certain "treatment" peddlers lashed out with word salad articles (but zero blind listening tests to the contrary, of course). He tested all the wrong people (sound familiar?). Studio pros "know" that treatments are beneficial for mixing due to their self training, etc, so it must also be better for at home listening, despite Toole et als evidence.
    That lead to this, "middle of saga" study: http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20190717/16640.pdf
    http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16640



    Sorry, the first link cannot be accessed without AES membership, but if you can, there it is. The 2nd is a summary. It tested now just "Studio Pros" and their "trained" hearing.
    Can you guess the results?

    I'm not saying the room doesn't matter. But the evidence for turning into an iso-ward padded cell for better perception, is not there, audibly.
    Visually and maybe to be appropriate for audiophiles, sure.

    cheers,

    AJ
    AJ, I'm not sure what Toole was trying to prove to be honest, let's just say that I have witnessed not only in my own room what $20k worth of proper treatment does to enhance the enjoyment of sound but in many others as well. I have also witnessed way too many "bare" rooms at various audio stores and let's just say I don't know how they can sell anything from those rooms. It is a night and day difference.

    One brief example and long before I even attempted at treating my own room due to inexperience was my friend's system. He spent a significant amount of money on rather impressive gear and his speakers of choice were the Proac Response 3's back in the day. Great speakers, good sound, system was sounding mighty good. One day he calls me up and says "you have to come over right away and listen". I did and of course his room was turned into what looked to me at the time like a lab of some sort, with all kinds of panels and bass traps everywhere....

    He proceeded to put on our favorite "reference" track and my jaw hit the floor. THAT was the first time I ever heard sound projected not only way beyond the speakers and physical boundaries of the room width and depth wise as if the walls did not exist at all but the musicians were standing in front of the speakers and one could almost feel their presence in the room as a 3D holographic presentation without the actual visual cues obviously. I simply could not believe the holographic and 3-dimensional presentation of his speakers. There were no speakers at the time that I could think of that I have heard elsewhere that could throw such a wide, deep and holographic presentation. None...

    It wasn't his speakers, it was the room that made all the difference in the world and completely overshadowed ANY upgrades in components he ever made before that point in time. Fortunate for him, his friend who was a recording engineer and a fanatical audiophile knew exactly what, where and why needed to be in his room. Now that is ART of SOUND.

  27. #27

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Forgot to mention my friend’s speakers were way beyond the 1/3 of the room forwards so nearly in the middle of the room since it was a “dedicated” listening room after the engineer was done positioning them. Obviously that would not be possible in all cases. But as a dedicated listening room, I’ve still have not heard better and my own custom built room with $20k worth of treatment paled by comparison. There are true artist out there, we call them the “speaker whisperers”.... I’ve met a few in the industry.

  28. #28
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Let's take a look at what you said in your first post:



    You were "in the process of dividing off the very long room in my basement to make an audio room." You call up ASC and ask their rep to help you figure out how to design your room and you want to know where to put room treatments in your fictional room. No wonder he gave you "multiple possible options" because there wasn't really anything to work with. You had no room, you weren't sure of the room dimensions because you were looking for someone to tell you the optimum room dimensions you should build your room to, and of course he had no idea of what your room would look like if it was ever built, what equipment makes up your system, and the room treatments you would need. All he could really do based on your phone call was to give you what he gave you which was multiple possible options. And then you post here that this was not what you would expect from a professional company.

    Seriously...
    Mybad, I should have had you intercede for me.
    I thought I was going about it the right way by contacting a company to discus my project and see what they had to offer in expertise and products.
    If I get in this situation again I will be sure to look you up as my spokesperson.
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  29. #29
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    AJ, I'm not sure what Toole was trying to prove
    Serge, he wasn't trying to "prove" something, he experimented to see what would result.
    He included recording engineers who say and believe exactly what you do.
    But the conditions of his test were very different from your anecdotal experiences, which cannot be debated. They were your subjective, anecdotal experiences. We just went over this in the Ear thread.
    The pro violinists swore on the Strad too.
    None of the studiophiles in Tooles test were aware of, or could see the treatments. The results were markedly different from their sighted beliefs. The McGill study I linked for you didn't involve Toole whatsoever. It was a follow up on his findings that generated a huge backlash from studiophile believers.
    This time, they tested only studiophile believers (Tooles tests included them, but not exclusively).
    The results were the same. In the blind tests, their eyes, beliefs etc, could not override their ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Fortunate for him, his friend who was a recording engineer
    Yes, that's where all this comes from. That's who McGill tested. Btw, it's not the "room" being "treated". It's the horrific polar response of the audiophile speaker being mitigated. That's also what Toole (Canada) and a whole bunch of others (Salmi, KEF, Eureka project, etc Europe) found simultaneously.
    The off axis/polar response has a large effect on perceive timbre, imaging, etc.
    I'm not against studiophile/audiophile type folks making things "less worse" by treating their speakers polar issues with room bandaids and gauze everywhere.
    But it's far from optimal. Unless eyes and belief can overcome. It can look pretty fashionable too.

    cheers,

    AJ

  30. #30

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Serge, he wasn't trying to "prove" something, he experimented to see what would result.
    He included recording engineers who say and believe exactly what you do.
    But the conditions of his test were very different from your anecdotal experiences, which cannot be debated. They were your subjective, anecdotal experiences. We just went over this in the Ear thread.
    The pro violinists swore on the Strad too.
    None of the studiophiles in Tooles test were aware of, or could see the treatments. The results were markedly different from their sighted beliefs. The McGill study I linked for you didn't involve Toole whatsoever. It was a follow up on his findings that generated a huge backlash from studiophile believers.
    This time, they tested only studiophile believers (Tooles tests included them, but not exclusively).
    The results were the same. In the blind tests, their eyes, beliefs etc, could not override their ears.


    Yes, that's where all this comes from. That's who McGill tested. Btw, it's not the "room" being "treated". It's the horrific polar response of the audiophile speaker being mitigated. That's also what Toole (Canada) and a whole bunch of others (Salmi, KEF, Eureka project, etc Europe) found simultaneously.
    The off axis/polar response has a large effect on perceive timbre, imaging, etc.
    I'm not against studiophile/audiophile type folks making things "less worse" by treating their speakers polar issues with room bandaids and gauze everywhere.
    But it's far from optimal. Unless eyes and belief can overcome. It can look pretty fashionable too.

    cheers,

    AJ
    AJ, are you not using treatments in your room/rooms at all?

    I am not familiar with Toole's study so cannot comment. I am not sure what the agenda was? Was it to promote his own speakers or purely academic?

    The fact that at the very least, treating the first reflection points of the room, side walls, ceiling, floor and diffusing the sound helps tremendously with listening fatigue. Listening fatigue has very little to do with the response of the tweeters or overall system balance, contrary to the popular belief. It is the brain struggling with localization of sound and being overloaded!

    Here is a very simple but effective test. Use fluffy towels, cut into square pieces old carpet, whatever material that would offer an ounce of diffusion...

    Sit yourself, or your helper in the listening chair. Have them move a mirror along the wall. When you see your speaker, stop and pin that material on that place on the wall at ear level. Do the same for ceiling and floor if possible. Then sit back and listen and come back and tell me you did not notice an overall better coherence and a much better focused imaging response from your system....


    Even the Electrostatic and other bipolar speakers benefit tremendously although they radiate the sound differently.

  31. #31

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    I've found Toole's listening room. Now, with all due respect to Dr.Toole, I have NEVER had luck with such positioning of speakers for "great" sound. I've tried probably every square inch of my listening rooms at one point or another and having speakers jammed up against the wall does not constitute a great sound at all. One can not experience the depth of sound stage that way nor is the sound typically well balanced as far as tonality under those conditions. But then again I have not heard the "magical" positioning of speakers in his own room, so cannot say much more other than that never worked for me.

    https://www.audioasylum.com/usr/1/14356/floyd_toole.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  32. #32
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    AJ, are you not using treatments in your room/rooms at all?
    No. By design. They would have negative effect.

    edit - you jogged my memory, here is someone like you who is a very strong proponent of treatments. Scroll about 2/3rds down https://www.dagogo.com/3rd-2012-capital-audio-fest/

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I am not familiar with Toole's study so cannot comment. I am not sure what the agenda was? Was it to promote his own speakers or purely academic?
    Academic. Funded by the NRC, published in AES for peer review. As was the McGill study, King, Blauert, et who are referenced.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    The fact that at the very least, treating the first reflection points of the room, side walls, ceiling, floor and diffusing the sound helps tremendously with listening fatigue.
    That is not a scientific fact at all. I just linked you a study that shows the exact opposite. I could link 100 more, but unfortunately, AES membership is required. Then I remembered these, which are accessible:
    https://www.audioholics.com/room-aco...man-adaptation
    https://www.audioholics.com/room-aco...steners-prefer
    I've corresponded with the good Dr., he's a very sharp guy. If you read the articles, he anticipates the ad hominens that will be directed at "him" as a smokescreen, in lieu of any contrary science (for obvious reasons, there is none). Lots of references to all the other scientists findings, not "him".

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Then sit back and listen and come back and tell me you did not notice an overall better coherence and a much better focused imaging response from your system....
    Serge, I have access to tons of stuff from other manufacturers, including "treatments". It's not anything I have not "tried myself", nor "experienced" with others systems. I friends with folks with recording studios. I've been in several, several times. As I stated, I have heard speakers with horrific polar response (the total 3D radiation of the speaker) sound "less worse" with acoustic bandaids everywhere. I understand that need. But that is "loudspeaker" treatment, simply applied to the room surfaces. If it makes one happy audio-visually, fine with me.

    cheers,

    AJ
    Last edited by AJ Soundfield; July 17, 2019 at 09:32 PM. Reason: add link

  33. #33
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    But then again I have not heard the "magical" positioning of speakers in his own room, so cannot say much more other than that never worked for me.
    This is with speakers with textbook smooth off axis like his, or something else....???


    That part is critical
    Attached Images Attached Images

  34. #34

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    No. By design. They would have negative effect.


    Academic. Funded by the NRC, published in AES for peer review. As was the McGill study, King, Blauert, et who are referenced.


    That is not a scientific fact at all. I just linked you a study that shows the exact opposite. I could link 100 more, but unfortunately, AES membership is required. Then I remembered these, which are accessible:
    https://www.audioholics.com/room-aco...man-adaptation
    https://www.audioholics.com/room-aco...steners-prefer
    I've corresponded with the good Dr., he's a very sharp guy. If you read the articles, he anticipates the ad hominens that will be directed at "him" as a smokescreen, in lieu of any contrary science (for obvious reasons, there is none). Lots of references to all the other scientists findings, not "him".


    Serge, I have access to tons of stuff from other manufacturers, including "treatments". It's not anything I have not "tried myself", nor "experienced" with others systems. I friends with folks with recording studios. I've been in several, several times. As I stated, I have heard speakers with horrific polar response (the total 3D radiation of the speaker) sound "less worse" with acoustic bandaids everywhere. I understand that need. But that is "loudspeaker" treatment, simply applied to the room surfaces. If it makes one happy audio-visually, fine with me.

    cheers,

    AJ
    Thanks for the links AJ. I'll give them a read when I have a bit more time to go over and digest the info. It is difficult to carry on a meaningful conversation since I am not familiar with the results.

  35. #35

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    This is with speakers with textbook smooth off axis like his, or something else....???


    That part is critical
    I've owned many speakers so I really would have to think about which of them may have been that smooth. Perhaps none! Maybe the Wilson Sasha came close but they certainly are not in their element being up against the wall at all.

    710Wilfig5.jpg

  36. #36
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    **

  37. #37
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    I've found Toole's listening room. Now, with all due respect to Dr.Toole, I have NEVER had luck with such positioning of speakers for "great" sound. I've tried probably every square inch of my listening rooms at one point or another and having speakers jammed up against the wall does not constitute a great sound at all. One can not experience the depth of sound stage that way nor is the sound typically well balanced as far as tonality under those conditions. But then again I have not heard the "magical" positioning of speakers in his own room, so cannot say much more other than that never worked for me.

    https://www.audioasylum.com/usr/1/14356/floyd_toole.jpg
    Salon 2's are upside down, interesting I wonder how they are standing up
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  38. #38
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    Salon 2's are upside down, interesting I wonder how they are standing up
    Too tall!
    He obviously wanted this room as decor friendly as possible, it's a "living" room and the Salons are very deep, so he didn't want to put them out in front of stand which would place face around 4' from wall. They are also very tall, which typically puts the tweeter well above ear level. So he flipped them, lowering the tweeter/mids to ear level. A stereophile might be (visually) aghast at the positioning closer to front wall/near objects at side. Not ideal for stereo. But Toole isn't a stereophile . He upmixes (Auro3D), so the "front" stage is actually all 3 speakers. Actually, thats an old picture. There's a thread somewhere where he explains all and now includes the front height channels, which he also utilizes. I do something similar myself, although I don't use a center and the LR channels are untouched, pure stereo. The upmixer is used only for surrounds, heights and indirect radiation form the rear of the fronts. All "direct" front sound is pure stereo. Different strokes for different folks.
    Of course, that is Tooles' personal system/tastes and has zero to do with the science cited in the links above, though of course, it is derived from it, not vice versa.
    The science in the links are from a great many scientists worldwide.
    I'd love to hear that system, judged in person with my own ears/eyes of course, rather than online pics.
    Isn't that audiophile 1st Commandment?

    cheers,

    AJ

  39. #39

    Room Treatments Advice

    AJ, thanks for link to the article by Dr. Toole.

    Very interesting read. He and others concluded that:
    - “The aural scene is ultimately limited by the recording.”
    - This is what I have called the “circle of confusion”. The result is that the most “perfect” loudspeaker in the most “perfect” room, will not always, or possibly ever, sound “perfect”.

    Toole even proposes that speakers/room be adapted for different types of music (say rock versus classical).

  40. #40

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    AJ, thanks for link to the article by Dr. Toole.

    Very interesting read. He and others concluded that:
    - “The aural scene is ultimately limited by the recording.”
    - This is what I have called the “circle of confusion”. The result is that the most “perfect” loudspeaker in the most “perfect” room, will not always, or possibly ever, sound “perfect”.

    Toole even proposes that speakers/room be adapted for different types of music (say rock versus classical).
    Great idea! Let’s see, what will it be tonight? The cozy and intimate “Jazz Room”? The bigger “Rock Room” Or should I retreat to the “Classic Hall” that doubles as a ballroom? Hmm, choices, choices

  41. #41
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    AJ, thanks for link to the article by Dr. Toole.

    Very interesting read. He and others concluded that:
    - “The aural scene is ultimately limited by the recording.”
    - This is what I have called the “circle of confusion”. The result is that the most “perfect” loudspeaker in the most “perfect” room, will not always, or possibly ever, sound “perfect”.
    You're welcome Nicoff. I assume you are referring to this:
    recordings are highly variable, and he concludes “The aural scene is ultimately limited by the recording.”
    This is what I have called the “circle of confusion”. The result is that the most “perfect” loudspeaker in the most “perfect” room, will not always, or possibly ever, sound “perfect”.
    In all of our loudspeaker evaluations, over several decades now, the highest scores have gone to those with the most uniform directivity, not the highest or any particular directivity. In fact one of the highest scoring loudspeakers for a period of time in the NRCC double-blind evaluations was an essentially omnidirectional bipole design, which would generate maximum reflections from all vertical surfaces. This makes sense in that the precedence effect would remain intact because there is a spectral similarity between the direct and reflected sounds. That was a learning experience.
    I agree of course and do note, he is saying an "omni" speaker (like yours??) can sound excellent in a "living" room (see pic of his long ago space) *IF* the spectrum of the reflections has the same DNA as the original (which it rarely ever is). No "treatments" visible, just smart layout, furnishings, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Toole even proposes that speakers/room be adapted for different types of music (say rock versus classical).
    Once again, I presume you refer to this:
    For optimum stereo listening if your music tastes are as eclectic as mine, one really needs adjustable acoustics and, possibly, variable-directivity loudspeakers, but we know that won’t happen.
    The last part, I obviously vehemently disagree with. Going on 20 yrs now.

    cheers,

    AJ

  42. #42

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Yes. I was referring to those paragraphs that you just noted.

  43. #43
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Great idea! Let’s see, what will it be tonight? The cozy and intimate “Jazz Room”? The bigger “Rock Room” Or should I retreat to the “Classic Hall”
    I agree.
    Since I have just that ability and it's raining, might as well get started a bit early.

  44. #44
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Yes. I was referring to those paragraphs that you just noted.
    Ok, but it is happening. Now.

  45. #45

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus View Post
    Great idea! Let’s see, what will it be tonight? The cozy and intimate “Jazz Room”? The bigger “Rock Room” Or should I retreat to the “Classic Hall” that doubles as a ballroom? Hmm, choices, choices
    I know the dilemma. Room Treatments Advice

    However... I have used room filters ('correction') and in my current room configuration I have noticed that I prefer the filter enabled when listening to classical music and off for rock/jazz music. So in my case, the Classical Hall and Rock/Jazz rooms are just a click away.

  46. #46

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I know the dilemma. Room Treatments Advice

    However... I have used room filters ('correction') and in my current room configuration I have noticed that I prefer the filter enabled when listening to classical music and off for rock/jazz music. So in my case, the Classical Hall and Rock/Jazz rooms are just a click away.
    To be honest I’ve never relied on any filters or even EQ. I guess I’m a purist... to my ears they always seen to add some haze or artificial edginess that I’m sensitive to. My Luxman integrated has some “old school” loudness and tone controls which are actually “not bad” but they are always bypassed and never used.

    The only time I’ve ever even used a device such as an outboard crossover, (a Bryston) was to split the signal between the preamp and the monoblock amps. This was done to completely remove the signal below 70Hz (using a slope) to let the JL Audio subs do all the work and the driving between 70 and 20Hz so the Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento speakers can be free from those octaves since they were two-way speakers. Results were fantastic. Much more coherent sound from their midrange drivers. Intoxicating results and clean and authoritative bass to boot.

  47. #47
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Toole isn't referring to EQ. EQ can't do it (though it is part of it)

  48. #48

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Yes, I am not using EQ. I am using FIR.

    https://www.elprocus.com/fir-filter-...al-processing/

  49. #49

    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Yes, I am not using EQ. I am using FIR.

    https://www.elprocus.com/fir-filter-...al-processing/
    My bad, I misunderstood

  50. #50
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    Re: Room Treatments Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    Yes, I am not using EQ. I am using FIR.

    https://www.elprocus.com/fir-filter-...al-processing/
    I know what FIR and IIR filters are. What are you using FIR for?
    You understand Toole is referring to changing the aural scene in room? I quoted him.

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