The Audiohpile Ear - Page 10
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  1. #91
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    I saw your answers yesterday, but for me it was time to go to bed!



    I never made a bad choice at the moment of the purchase.
    I did the right thing given the information i had, and the size of my pocket.
    Most of time, is when some new gear is in place, that i think maybe the old one wasn´t so good at all!



    First of all, thank you for the complete answer.
    Now I know that you are a true audiophile, and deserve my sincere respect.
    For me, your answer was very important and clarifying. This is because there are too many so-called "audiophiles" who share an opinion similar to yours, but when we ask them for their experience, became obvious that they have experienced almost nothing and indeed have a very limited view, which is certainly not your case. In fact, i´m in a clear disadvantage because I have never had the possibility to have something similar to what you already had. What a journey!
    That said, it seemed to me to catch some disenchantment with the audio, result of so much money spent to finally find satisfaction with a much more modest system in terms of price. I think several factors may have contributed. Starting at the end, I would say that although high-end prices are increasingly prohibitive, the truth is that evolution has also come to allow more widespread access to quality audio. That is, today, for less money and with a careful choice, we can have access to a quality that a few years ago was only obtained at a very high cost. If ultra high end prices are justified today is another conversation. I agree with you in the sense that probably a lot of equipment is not worth the money they cost. But, and this is where my opinion differs from yours, it's far from a matter of personal perception and mind tricks because I think that actually everything sounds different. Of course, at some point in our choices, our personal taste interferes and the same with the size of our pocket. If it is deep, what´s the problem?
    In audio it is not easy to define well the path that we want to go. I think I have already said it on another topic, but many years ago I was looking for a sound with maximum silence in the background, believing that from this black limb would emerge, full of timbre and well differentiated, all sounds. When I "opened my eyes" I had a dull and lifeless sound, with high frequencies almost erased. Is it easy to fool ourselves? Yes it is. But we do not buy audio gear by mistake of the senses, or because we are fools easily manipulated, imagining listening to things where they do not exist.
    Let's forget about expensive things, full of little lights. I will give an example where the differences heard can hardly be related to perception induced by price, brand, luxury and ownership. If I put some bases under the speakers, I will have a completely different sound depending on whether they are made of wood, glass or stone. But then, to my surprise, if i try granite or marble, the sound will be different again. So I hear differences because I like granite better? Because it is more expensive? It's certainly not your case, but many audiophiles who do not hear differences when they introduce something new into the system, have sofas and all kind of furniture in front of the speakers. Sometimes they do not even notice differences in sound when the speakers have the grills set or not. The speakers are tuned to hear with the grills, they say. Seriously? Bad project, I say. As so many recognize, changing the position of the speakers can dramatically change the sound. The humidity can also be terrible and obviously affect a good performance. Just as light does not penetrate the fog, the sound does not pass in a humid environment. Mind Suggestions? Certainly not. So why is it that, when it comes to cables, we're just talking about suggestion and error of perception? Even in theory I find it easy to accept that the signal may suffer various interferences along the way. Do we hear them? Of course, yes. If some of these differences occur in the right sense of fidelity that is sought and justified the price? That's another conversation.



    Agree. Bad terminations can kill a good cable.



    That´s when I disagree with you.



    Like Mike says, it depends on the speakers. I remember my Infinity RS 6001 were not very sensitive to showing differences in cables. Already the Sonus Faber reacted to any different cable connected to them.



    That´s my point too!
    Speakers are not the same as the rest of our electronic components. They are acoustic/electric/mechanical in the case of dynamic speakers for example. The cones move, the cabinet vibrates. Some speaker designers shoot for complete resonance free cabinets, some instead choose naturally occurring materials such as specific woods which they feel offer "sympathetic" resonance and sure enough, listening to a violin through some Sonus Faber speakers can often be an almost religious experience and make a grown man tear up.
    Acoustic Musical instruments are typically wood, not some resin or plastic or other more inert materials.

    The philosophy of designs are different and so are the results. Having said that, obviously the interaction of speaker with the internally and externally generated vibrations can be slightly shifted by isolation or choice of material that is under the speaker. Every material has a fundamental "resonant" frequency and how such material will interact with the speaker above it will vary greatly. Hence the metal, wood, granite, etc.. can and do have a slight effect on speakers and their sonic signature. Typically from my own personal experience, if the cabinet of the speaker will react positively to a specific method of coupling or isolation from/to the floor, it will manifest itself as better focused images, more overall coherence from the speaker and a more "holographic" presentation due to less smearing of the sound from vibration.

    How any materials such as granite, metal, rubber or anything else for any other component other than (turntable for obvious reasons and to some degree tube gear due to possible microphonic effect) is completely beyond me.

    There are no electronic components in AUDIO that are affected by vibration. NONE that I know of. Hence I could never understand the obsession with the expensive footers offered by many. There is absolutely no proof or reasonable explanation. Not for the lack of trying on my part. Everything from various elastic/elastomer footers, to maple, granite and even bicycle tubes under my gear with various levels of pressure! Did I hear a difference? I thought I did in fact but as we already covered in this thread, "Expectation is the Mother of Manifestation".

    Temperature, yes, temperature effects transistors, hence the bias and a slight warm up period of time as transistors operate differently due to temperature and are kept from going into a thermal runaway.

    As to humidity, yes, humid air with lower density allows for faster propagation of sound. It is virtually irrelevant for our systems within a climate controlled environment. Even that however is frequency dependent. Anything above 2Khz travels faster, hence the sharp crack of thunder is heard before the boom or the lower frequencies.
    Serge

  2. #92
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus
    There are no electronic components in AUDIO that are affected by vibration. NONE that I know of. Hence I could never understand the obsession with the expensive footers offered by many.
    It's a fact. We have different experiences.
    I dare to say that vibration control is part of the "secret" to a quality audio.
    My pre amp went to repair the volume control and I have it back tomorrow. Given the fact it was on repairing I asked for the removal of the original footers because any others works/sounds better.
    I'll post a photo tomorrow !!

  3. #93
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    It's a fact. We have different experiences.
    I dare to say that vibration control is part of the "secret" to a quality audio.
    My pre amp went to repair the volume control and I have it back tomorrow. Given the fact it was on repairing I asked for the removal of the original footers because any others works/sounds better.
    I'll post a photo tomorrow !!
    Well, like much else in audio, the unexplained part is the mysticism and allure of such things. Seems the less we understand, the more exotic and desirable they become. I' surprised audio companies have not reached out to NASA, DARPA, LOCKHEED MARTIN, RAYTHEON to offer them miracle solutions for rockets experiencing over 10g loading and incredible amount of vibration, the precision intercontinental ballistic missiles and the vibration from tens of thousands of pounds of thrust, etc... Surely if the footers help in audio somehow, much more precision can be achieved with those companies as well, perhaps we will get those astronauts to Mars much sooner!

    Now imagine just for a second what a mess it would be if electronic components could actually "change" their operating parameters due to vibration. How would we ever get anywhere on things relying on electronics and vibrations screwing with their parameters? Does that mean NASA and others do not deploy vibration control? Of course they do! They do it because electronic components can fail due to fatigue and mechanical/vibration stress, not because parameters can be changed due to vibration. Of course in AUDIO, it all makes perfect sense.

    If I am wrong, please do not hesitate to correct me! I would love to learn something new. Other than a "piezo-electric" effect of ceramic capacitors reacting to severe shock, I really am NOT aware of any other means by which anything electronic could be persuaded to act different vs their inherent design characteristics and specs. Imagine shaking a computer and seeing variable results... That would be a bummer for many applications....

    Why do audio manufacturers design their gear with some measures of vibration control? For the same reason, because PCB boards and solder joints can and do fail when subjected to vibration and stress and of course if they didn't, folks would say they are not serious about vibration control and "sound".
    Serge

  4. #94
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    So not just me, but all the audiophiles who dare to try other support feet underneath the equipment are completely wrong, right? But have you noticed how some products are already incorporating these accessories manufactured by specialized brands? Why? Have you noticed how some equipment has double and triple chassis? A waste? And what about the racks? They exist mainly because, they say, they guarantee a better control of vibrations (some even have mechanisms of authentic suspension). Are they another lie on audio industry?

  5. #95
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    So not just me, but all the audiophiles who dare to try other support feet underneath the equipment are completely wrong, right?
    Spock, Appeal ad populum has it's pitfalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Balance
    Are all those millions of people who swear by those balance bracelets wrong?
    Are the folks who thought the $90 wine tasted better wrong also? The Strad folks? Have you read any of the links?
    It's best to just enjoy those widgets that you use, anecdotally, subjectively, than to try to use them as objective crutches.
    Logic dictates you consider other/all possibilities.

    cheers,

    AJ

  6. #96
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    So not just me, but all the audiophiles who dare to try other support feet underneath the equipment are completely wrong, right? But have you noticed how some products are already incorporating these accessories manufactured by specialized brands? Why? Have you noticed how some equipment has double and triple chassis? A waste? And what about the racks? They exist mainly because, they say, they guarantee a better control of vibrations (some even have mechanisms of authentic suspension). Are they another lie on audio industry?
    It's not me against the "other" audiophiles, it is me questioning what can possibly change with electronic components and vibrations typically encountered in a room with speakers exciting the air molecules... I already mentioned why products have isolation measures, to prolong life of components. If anyone is saying it somehow changes the sound, I'd love to see THAT whitepaper. Moreover, I'd love to hear which of the components specifically can be altered in operational parameters by vibration.

    How does one control good sound from bad sound with isolation components or are ALL isolation components steering ALL the inductors, capacitors, resistors, transistors towards the RIGHT and IMPROVED sound direction? THAT doesn't even make any sense. If two "footers" are as different as can be and the sound changes, then surely there is a possibility one design IS right and ALL other designs are wrong? Does that make sense?

    As far as double and triple chassis go, they isolate components from each other such as the power supply and rectification blocks from the rest of "more" sensitive components. EMI/RFI are as REAL as anything can be and is well documented. No voodoo here... I am not a big fan of integrated DACs into integrated amplifiers, there is too much pollution from the digital stage. Ever put an EMI meter up to a poorly shielded DAC? It spews all kinds of pollution around itself.

    Of course if only those that claim that the double/triple chassis is the answer, then ALL others who take measures at shielding components inside one chassis must be way INFERIOR. The double and triple chassis can and do provide an ounce of better crosstalk specs, perhaps the digital noise can be kept better isolated, perhaps they decided that the transformer is too noisy, who knows but the designer. I've had double chassis components in the past, I can not say they were superior, it all depends on the implementation and thorough engineering as surely single chassis components can be and are also of high performance when it comes to purity of signal.
    Serge

  7. #97
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    NASA routinely orders these from me for controlling vibrations with their scientific equipment:

    https://www.solid-tech.net/disc-of-silence/

    But what do they know?

    Again, if you can’t hear a difference, move on. Audio equipment produces energy at 50-60 cycles a second. That energy needs to dissipate and some devices help with that - beyond what rubber feet can provide. Materials such as copper are much better at dissipating energy (turning it into heat).

    Cables do make a difference.

    Isolation/dissipation makes a difference.

    This thread is getting old. If you need measurements to prove something, great, go set up a science lab dedicated to two channel audio. Maybe you can hire Ethan Winer.



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  9. #98
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    NASA routinely orders these from me for controlling vibrations with their scientific equipment:

    https://www.solid-tech.net/disc-of-silence/

    But what do they know?

    Again, if you can’t hear a difference, move on. Audio equipment produces energy at 50-60 cycles a second. That energy needs to dissipate and some devices help with that - beyond what rubber feet can provide. Materials such as copper are much better at dissipating energy (turning it into heat).

    Cables do make a difference.

    Isolation/dissipation makes a difference.

    This thread is getting old. If you need measurements to prove something, great, go set up a science lab dedicated to two channel audio. Maybe you can hire Ethan Winer.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Mike, does NASA order them for SOUND? Of course not, scientific instruments need isolation but not because their components are changing from vibration but the measurements may be off depending on what they are trying to measure with precision due to vibration.

    Audio equipment produces frequencies from 20Hz to 20Khz. 50-60Hz is the AC frequency. In fact I have moved on from copper turning vibration into heat and instead rely on the Class A to warm up my room.

    If anyone is hearing the benefits from isolation, fantastic! Have fun with it, it's a hobby and its only money.
    Serge

  10. #99
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    Ok, I think we have had enough fun with this thread.

    I honestly thought that perhaps we could have an intelligent discussion about some of the aspects of high end audio and put our collective thinking caps on.

    But, I've been asked to stop since there are complaints.

    No point of trying to convince anyone of anything.

    Sorry for the intrusion.

    Have fun folks.
    Serge

  11. #100
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    Re: The Audiohpile Ear

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield;
    Logic dictates you consider other/all possibilities.
    The logic is leading you to an error of judgment, when you refuse what your senses are telling you. At the end, the triumph of this implacable logic would be the end of the science itself, because it denies what does not "fit"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus;
    If anyone is saying it somehow changes the sound, I'd love to see THAT whitepaper.
    That´s the same mistake AJ is making. You don´t need a white paper, you just need an open mind and follow your ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus;
    If two "footers" are as different as can be and the sound changes, then surely there is a possibility one design IS right and ALL other designs are wrong?
    This is not black and white. There is a set of care that, all added, will contribute to a whole. Apart from isolating the whole equipment from vibrations, isolating certain components by themselves (transformers for example) will result in a better sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus;
    I am not a big fan of integrated DACs into integrated amplifiers, there is too much pollution from the digital stage.
    Yes. Good to know that we agree in something! And I did not need to measure. My ears were enough!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOctopus;
    No point of trying to convince anyone of anything.
    But is seems you are warning us.
    As you say, this is a hobby, and if at the end of the day i´m happy, please let me be happy.

    Cheers to you all!

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