Why no turntable?

[vortrex]

It’s not better, it’s different.

It’s better, but takes a lot more money to get there.

[Kingrex]

Consider yourself getting off easy Randy. I bought a STST Motus II DD turntable, and an Otari 5050 MkII tape deck. I already spent $500 on records and $2200 on tapes.

[Randy Myers]

Ouch... I have spent a good chunk so far ... dam Mike .... I need a deal on an Ortofon 2M Black .

[Mike]

Ouch... I have spent a good chunk so far ... dam Mike .... I need a deal on an Ortofon 2M Black .

Go Candeza Black!


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[Kuoppis]

Go Candeza Black!

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Randy, can only second Mike on the Cadenza Black. I started off with the Cadenza Bronze, and it was great.

And, I’m also happy to see others discovering the fun of vinyl. It seems we’re slowly getting over this unhelpful arguing whether digital or analog is better. They’re different shades of gray for the discerning music lover.


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[Randy Myers]

Hmmmm... that might be a tad too much for the little U-Turn table .... Since Mike knows the phono stage I have I assume it should work ok with something like this. Probably a little too over the top for me at this stage of my re-learning .

I do wish I still had my Grace Ruby... God I loved that cartridge back in the day.

[Mikado463]

I do wish I still had my Grace Ruby... God I loved that cartridge back in the day.

I hear ya Randy, my favorite MM cart of all time, had one back in the day mated to a Premier MMT arm on a Kenwood KD500 table. Man that made some sweet music !!

[Randy Myers]

I had an Audio Linear table with a SME III arm and the Grace Ruby cartridge ... I loved that table back in the day!

[asindc]

Go Candeza Black!


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Randy, can only second Mike on the Cadenza Black. I started off with the Cadenza Bronze, and it was great.

And, I’m also happy to see others discovering the fun of vinyl. It seems we’re slowly getting over this unhelpful arguing whether digital or analog is better. They’re different shades of gray for the discerning music lover.


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Another vote for Cadenza Black.

[Kingrex]

Cadenza Black ?????? Really. Why not just get an Anna or a Koetsu or some other over the top extravagant cartridge. Randy has a $500 TT and a nice modest system. This talk seems foolish and uncomfortable to me. Imagine him. Think how your making Randy feel suggesting a over the top cartridge that cost as much as his T+A amp. He doesn't need a $2,700 cartridge to get good sound from that table. He could find a deal on a Quintet bronze or Back and really top out that table and have a superb cartridge matching his overall system.

[SCAudiophile]

Cadenza Black ?????? Really. Why not just get an Anna or a Koetsu or some other over the top extravagant cartridge. Randy has a $500 TT and a nice modest system. This talk seems foolish and uncomfortable to me. Imagine him. Think how your making Randy feel suggesting a over the top cartridge that cost as much as his T+A amp. He doesn't need a $2,700 cartridge to get good sound from that table. He could find a deal on a Quintet bronze or Back and really top out that table and have a superb cartridge matching his overall system.

GREAT post!!!

[Kuoppis]

Cadenza Black ?????? Really. Why not just get an Anna or a Koetsu or some other over the top extravagant cartridge. Randy has a $500 TT and a nice modest system. This talk seems foolish and uncomfortable to me. Imagine him. Think how your making Randy feel suggesting a over the top cartridge that cost as much as his T+A amp. He doesn't need a $2,700 cartridge to get good sound from that table. He could find a deal on a Quintet bronze or Back and really top out that table and have a superb cartridge matching his overall system.

In this hobby no-one needs anything. It’s all aspirational.


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[Mike]

I have seen this a million times. Randy dipped his toe in the water of analog and rather than get a cartridge he will want to replace in 6 -12 months, get a solid “law of diminishing returns” cart like the cadenza black. That way, if he want to step up his table and arm, he’s set. In the store, we have a $15,000 cart on a $4000 table with a stock arm. There is no hard and set formula.

But if he wants a strict match for his table, the Quintet Black is a nice step up.


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[UltraFast69]

Randy, can only second Mike on the Cadenza Black. I started off with the Cadenza Bronze, and it was great.

And, I’m also happy to see others discovering the fun of vinyl. It seems we’re slowly getting over this unhelpful arguing whether digital or analog is better. They’re different shades of gray for the discerning music lover.


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Assuming you stay with MM;


My thought is move up to the Credenza Bronze MM at $400, then if you want to move up replace the stylus to the Cadenza Black MM for approx $550, but then your into this than initially buying the Black MM out the gate for about $750.

Past this my gut, and only my gut says you may be out cartridging the benefits of the arm and table leaving little for the phono


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[UltraFast69]

I have seen this a million times. Randy dipped his toe in the water of analog and rather than get a cartridge he will want to replace in 6 -12 months, get a solid “law of diminishing returns” cart like the cadenza black. That way, if he want to step up his table and arm, he’s set. In the store, we have a $15,000 cart on a $4000 table with a stock arm. There is no hard and set formula.

But if he wants a strict match for his table, the Quintet Black is a nice step up.


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Can’t agree more, it’s this way no matter anything Audio and heck even trading in my wife of 26 years and that’s what I’m trying to say below other than making it clear to stay with a MM versus MC on his setup allowing for improvement with consideration to some level of expense, but I’m only in knee deep in experience at this point


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[Randy Myers]

Thank you for all the suggestions, opinions, etc. Always appreciated. I am definitely in a learning, or should I say relearning phase. I know back in the day I preferred MM cartridges versus MC. Not even sure exactly why. Maybe because every good preamp had a MM phone stage built in??? I did truly love my Grace Rudy. I also liked the Signet... I think the model was 7 something or another.

I will probably hold tight for now. The 2M Blue seems to do a nice job to get me back in. I have also been putting a good chunk of change into accessories and albums. I just ordered a nice hand made record rack. Cheryal may not be real happy putting another grand into a cartridge for the new table right now .

[Randy Myers]

I actually spoke with Ben, one of the founders of U-Turn. He said they have been trying the Ortofon 2M Bronze and believe it works very well with the U-Turn tables. He also stated that he believes the Black would probably be an over kill for the table/arm.

My next move might be to try a Bronze. I could always add a Black stylus later if I wanted to try it. Then I would have the entire 2M series covered . At this time I don't feel like I am interested in a MC cartridge, will probably stick with MM for now. But as it stands the Blue seems to be working rather well.

Here is one of Ben's replies- "Great question, we've done some experimenting with the 2M Bronze and it sounds great. I'd be wary of going any higher than this - the 2M Black is probably overkill."

[Kingrex]

Smart move Randy. It's nice to hear UTurn has done their homework and are honest on what works best. I would trust the experts making the table. It will probably be advise based upon getting the most natural, balanced tone from rhe table.

[Randy Myers]

First play with Bronze. Super easy install since the nuts are built into the cartridge body. How easy is that! Bit lighter tracking force. Sounds good but obviously on first song a but too early to tell the difference .

Ok, first very very early report. Very slight edge, especially in high frequency. Totally expected and with a little time I anticipate that smoothing.

But... acoustic guitar, Eva Cassidy Simply Eva... wow... hearing her fingers on the strings like she is sitting here playing, and a slight reverb from the guitar body. Close to stunning difference in this regards. Also noticeably quieter.

First listen it is quite impressive!

[aKnyght]

... acoustic guitar, Eva Cassidy Simply Eva... wow... hearing her fingers on the strings like she is sitting here playing, and a slight reverb from the guitar body. Close to stunning difference in this regards. Also noticeably quieter.

First listen it is quite impressive!

randy -- i have really enjoyed following your experience with the u-turn. thanks for all the posts and info.

at this point i would be very curious as to how you would characterize this analog set-up in comparison to your digital source... maybe something along the lines of "different but just as enjoyable" or maybe " different, enjoyable but not on the level of the t+a dac8 dsd source"... etc?

just trying to get some idea of how high one has to go up the analog food chain to reach a point of "different but equal" relative to a system with the t+a. sounds like, with some tweaks, you have come pretty darn close with the u-turn.

thanks, and keep the posts coming!!

[Randy Myers]

Hmmm, well my digital is still better. Of course it is easier with less fuss... low (no) noise, more dynamic. The analog setup is also very enjoyable. They are different and I do not think I could actually put my finger on the real differences. There certainly is something about the analog that is very enjoyable. Convenience certainly is not it .

I also think the U-Turn might be more capable then they even give it credit for. I am amazed at how much it can show the differences in minor upgrades. I would not be surprised if the Black might actually be a noticeable improvement.

I go back and forth and every time I play my digital it is like, dam that is good! But then I play a good album and dam that is fun.... I also like that there is many of my old favorites that I have gotten in analog that I have never seen in digital.

If I had to choice between CD and Vinyl it would definitely be Vinyl. High rez digital and especially DSD would be a different story. So far I am liking having both.

[aKnyght]

thanks randy, that is great info!

looks like you have hit the sweet spot with the u-turn addition to your system: great digital and fun / enjoyable analog for when you want.

[Al M.]

I go back and forth and every time I play my digital it is like, dam that is good! But then I play a good album and dam that is fun.... I also like that there is many of my old favorites that I have gotten in analog that I have never seen in digital.

If I had to choice between CD and Vinyl it would definitely be Vinyl. High rez digital and especially DSD would be a different story. So far I am liking having both.

If I had to choose between CD and Vinyl it would definitely be CD.

[Randy Myers]

If I had to choose between CD and Vinyl it would definitely be CD.

And that is pretty much the point. We all have our preferences. For me, CD is the minimal resolution/format. I will not have anything lower (i.e. MP3's); DSD512 is currently my maximum. Vinyl falls in the middle as an alternative fun format. There are several albums that I own in CD that I have bought the vinyl version and with a rare exception I prefer the vinyl.

I also understand I do not have high level of either. My Oppo spinner is a solid machine but I use it for one purpose only. Every disk I get any more, gets spun once, to rip it and copy to my music server machine.

The U-Turn table with SimAudio phono stage and the Ortofon 2M Bronze are not expensive either. Total value about the same as the Oppo. Playing a CD on my Oppo versus an album on the U-Turn setup, I do prefer the analog.

[Kingrex]

My experience is exactly the opposit. Many album I like on digital are less enjoyable on vinyl. Especially the new expensive vinyl. I wasted at least $200 recently chasing vinyl bliss that was a flop.
Vinyl for me is amazing when you find an old, not on digital "Art Pepper" or some great artist that was produced superbly.

[Randy Myers]

My experience is exactly the opposit. Many album I like on digital are less enjoyable on vinyl. Especially the new expensive vinyl. I wasted at least $200 recently chasing vinyl bliss that was a flop.
Vinyl for me is amazing when you find an old, not on digital "Art Pepper" or some great artist that was produced superbly.

Absolutely true. My vinyl buddy warned me about re-made vinyl from digital sources. He basically advised me to look for original recordings, remastered from original master tapes, etc. But to try and stir clear of vinyl created from digital remasters. So this is what I have been trying to do. With a few exceptions I have been concentrating on better vinyl and with again, a few exceptions, most that I have gotten are pretty darn good!

A good example for me is a few Pink Floyd albums that I recently purchased. The vinyl sounds considerably better then the standard CD version I have. However the two that I have in SACD I will not purchase in vinyl.

[UltraFast69]

Mike Lavigne taught me to look for recordings in their native format, and while not a guarantee it’s a good place to start. 45s will sound better then 33s. Mono can be better than in stereo.

As far as remasters, look for the original analog tape as the source.






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[Randy Myers]

Mike Lavigne taught me to look for recordings in their native format, and while not a guarantee it’s a good place to start. 45s will sound better then 33s. Mono can be better than in stereo.

As far as remasters, look for the original analog tape as the source.

Yup, pretty much what my vinyl buddy told me. I am happy with the sound of almost all of the albums I have gotten so far. I try to be careful in what I purchase for sure!

[Calvin]

I have jokingly remarked before that when I want a turntable sound I eat Rice Krispies with my digital system. I get plenty of snap, crackle, and pop and it's cheaper too."



On a more serious note, turntables, tape, and digital are all great formats. A lot depends on budget, space, and how much tinkering one desires to do. Not every format is needed for a great system. However, occasionally options are wonderful to have.

PS: While the new system I'm initialing receiving from Mike is digital, I already begun discussing a TT with Mike as well.

[Randy Myers]

Hehe... Mike is a big TT fan. I am enjoying my experimenting with vinyl again. It certainly is fun, although I do think my digital is still better.

[UltraFast69]

I have jokingly remarked before that when I want a turntable sound I eat Rice Krispies with my digital system. I get plenty of snap, crackle, and pop and it's cheaper too."



On a more serious note, turntables, tape, and digital are all great formats. A lot depends on budget, space, and how much tinkering one desires to do. Not every format is needed for a great system. However, occasionally options are wonderful to have.

PS: While the new system I'm initialing receiving from Mike is digital, I already begun discussing a TT with Mike as well.

Yep, you hear some of that sometime but agree all else, you’ll be surprised how entry you can go and still have as much fun!


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[Randy Myers]

The snap, crackle, etc., was a concern of mine jumping back in. It still bothers me, but not as much as I thought it would. As Ed stated, you might be surprised how entry level table still works very well! The U-Turn, which Ed gets credit for pointing out is quite good. It definitely has the ability to show improvements, such as the Bronze cartridge. It works very nicely on the U-Turn!

[Calvin]

The snap, crackle, etc., was a concern of mine jumping back in. It still bothers me, but not as much as I thought it would. As Ed stated, you might be surprised how entry level table still works very well! The U-Turn, which Ed gets credit for pointing out is quite good. It definitely has the ability to show improvements, such as the Bronze cartridge. It works very nicely on the U-Turn!

I essentially agree. Mike - Suncoast Audio - is delivering my new system probably within the next week:

Pass X260.8s amps
Pass XP22 Preamp
Luxman D-08u SACD
Aurender N100H Streamer
Magico A3’s
Magico A3 Grills
Shunyata Hydra Alpha A12 Power Conditioner
Shunyata Cables
Bamboo SVT Quadrasphire Racks (x3) and Amp Stands (x2)

As one can tell it is a full digital system. Can't wait to begin spinning some SACDs again. However, I already talked to Mike about the possibility of a Pass Labs XP-27 with a VPI Table of some sort. This would require more Quadrasphire rack shelves too.

But I may try a U-Turn (or something like it) just to see if I "really" desire a TT again. This may be wise.

I still remember my old one - and my dad's too (nice in the 60s/70s) and of course I have some friends that have a couple too. They take some work to properly set up, but despite the snap, crackle, and pop (the above was a joke) I still enjoyed one before. I don't really think I need one, but even my wife is pro-TT - actually excited about the possibility! She may like the economical one enough though that she may not see the need for an upgrade. So, it maybe be better to just go all in as a first step.

First, things first though. Will the new digital system deliver the goods? The wait is part of the journey, but man am I glad the wait is almost over. Looking forward to it Mike.

[Kingrex]

Wow Calvin. Diving right in. Enjoy.

Yoir digital will be better if you get a couple LPS and put your router, modem and switch on it. Also get a Linear Solution od AQvox switch. Even when playing a CD, less noise will be on the ethernet bleeding into the whole system.

[Kuoppis]

I essentially agree. Mike - Suncoast Audio - is delivering my new system probably within the next week:

Pass X260.8s amps
Pass XP22 Preamp
Luxman D-08u SACD
Aurender N100H Streamer
Magico A3’s
Magico A3 Grills
Shunyata Hydra Alpha A12 Power Conditioner
Shunyata Cables
Bamboo SVT Quadrasphire Racks (x3) and Amp Stands (x2)

As one can tell it is a full digital system. Can't wait to begin spinning some SACDs again. However, I already talked to Mike about the possibility of a Pass Labs XP-27 with a VPI Table of some sort. This would require more Quadrasphire rack shelves too.

But I may try a U-Turn (or something like it) just to see if I "really" desire a TT again. This may be wise.

I still remember my old one - and my dad's too (nice in the 60s/70s) and of course I have some friends that have a couple too. They take some work to properly set up, but despite the snap, crackle, and pop (the above was a joke) I still enjoyed one before. I don't really think I need one, but even my wife is pro-TT - actually excited about the possibility! She may like the economical one enough though that she may not see the need for an upgrade. So, it maybe be better to just go all in as a first step.

First, things first though. Will the new digital system deliver the goods? The wait is part of the journey, but man am I glad the wait is almost over. Looking forward to it Mike.

Great system, congrats!

My recommendation would be to rather wait for a while, and then get something a little more on par with your digital setup. Otherwise it will be of limited use, and you will not be any wiser afterwards. And a deck worth ten LPs is probably not justification enough to invest into the media.

Maybe Mike can borrow you a VPI TT for home auditioning.


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[Calvin]

Wow Calvin. Diving right in. Enjoy.

Yoir digital will be better if you get a couple LPS and put your router, modem and switch on it. Also get a Linear Solution od AQvox switch. Even when playing a CD, less noise will be on the ethernet bleeding into the whole system.

Thanks. I've been reviewing switches and right now I'm contemplating the EtherREGEN Ethernet Switch. Since you apparently seem to have the AQvox switch how would you say it compares? I guess we should make this another post and stay on TT here ...

[tube-vds]

i think melody gardot is better on vinyl than on a cd ...

[Calvin]

Great system, congrats!

My recommendation would be to rather wait for a while, and then get something a little more on par with your digital setup. Otherwise it will be of limited use, and you will not be any wiser afterwards. And a deck worth ten LPs is probably not justification enough to invest into the media.

Maybe Mike can borrow you a VPI TT for home auditioning.


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You're probably right. Magiocos + Pass Labs is pretty revealing of any weaknesses in a system, so the U-Turn may not fair well at all. Trying to save money in audio at times is a good way of shooting yourself in the proverbial foot ... Asking Mike to borrow one in a few months maybe a better way to go. Thanks.

[Kingrex]

I've been reviewing switch and right now I'm completing the EtherREGEN Ethernet Switch. Since you appertains to have the AQvox switch how would you say it compares? I guess we should make this another quoin and stay on TT here ...

I have a linear Solution switch. Ultrafast has the AQvox, other have the etherREGEN. Any will be a step above a consumer grade unit. We all seem to like what they bring to the table.

[Calvin]

I have a linear Solution switch. Ultrafast has the AQvox, other have the etherREGEN. Any will be a step above a consumer grade unit. We all seem to like what they bring to the table.

Thanks Kingrex. That's very helpful.

[Mikado463]

i think melody gardot is better on vinyl than on a cd ...

now that's a 'gatefold cover' !

[Kingrex]

It is also helpful to have a separate modem and separate router. Make sure to turn off all router functions in the modum. Ultra fast and I both use a surfboard. I have a pretty serious gaming router. All of that equipment functions best on good linear PS power such as the kecis you can get from Mike.

Place the power supplies for your router and modem on decent stands. Your switch should also go on a good stand. Your router and possibly your modem to but the switch and power supplies are vibration sensitive.

Definitely do the same for your network attach switch

Use all cat 6 or better cabling throughout. I use blue jeans cable which is tested for accurate terminations on any audio component..

Do these things and your digital setup will be very satisfying.

[Kuoppis]

i think melody gardot is better on vinyl than on a cd ...

I do have the same vinyl, and I do concur, vinyl definitely wins.


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[Kuoppis]

You're probably right. Magiocos + Pass Labs is pretty revealing of any weaknesses in a system, so the U-Turn may not fair well at all. Trying to save money in audio at times is a good way of shooting yourself in the proverbial foot ... Asking Mike to borrow one in a few months maybe a better way to go. Thanks.

What I’m trying to say, the system you will be receiving soon is not just some system. It will be quite good, Mike has advised you well.

Therefore, enjoy it, cherish it. When you have the passion to have a closer look at vinyl, Mike will again advise you well.


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[Calvin]

It is also helpful to have a separate modem and separate router. Make sure to turn off all router functions in the modum. Ultra fast and I both use a surfboard. I have a pretty serious gaming router. All of that equipment functions best on good linear PS power such as the kecis you can get from Mike.

Place the power supplies for your router and modem on decent stands. Your switch should also go on a good stand. Your router and possibly your modem to but the switch and power supplies are vibration sensitive.

Definitely do the same for your network attach switch

Use all cat 6 or better cabling throughout. I use blue jeans cable which is tested for accurate terminations on any audio component..

Do these things and your digital setup will be very satisfying.

We have a new home - moved in a few weeks ago. While we have Cat 6 throughout, our modem and router are mounted on the wall in the laundry room. From there it goes to a Cisco switch - by way of a Shunyata cable - in the Great Room. It is also wall mounted. We seem to have a pretty good connection - up to 940 mbps.

But as you and others have stated noise is the culprit. So, after I try out the Cisco switch on the system - if needed (probably will) - I will go with one of the devices above. I may also have to switch out the modem and router as well.

[Calvin]

What I’m trying to say, the system you will be receiving soon is not just some system. It will be quite good, Mike has advised you well.

Therefore, enjoy it, cherish it. When you have the passion to have a closer look at vinyl, Mike will again advise you well.


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Yes, thank you. I believe Mike designed an excellent system for us. And I agree, he would do the same on a TT system as well.

[Mordante]

I sometimes regret getting into analog audio. If I would have been more wisely I could now have a far more simple and probably a better audio system.

[Randy Myers]

I certainly understand this. I have gone round a few times over these past few years. To me it has been a re-learning process though. I am happy with my system as it stands and I believe simplifying the system (integrated amp coming soon) will make the system even more enjoyable to me. I do not regret waiting on getting a table, but I also enjoy playing around with vinyl again .

[Mikado463]

I sometimes regret getting into analog audio. If I would have been more wisely I could now have a far more simple and probably a better audio system.

obviously you're young (lucky bugger) for those us my age and older there was no choice and thus our large collection of vinyl. I think with so many of the young folks they are sucked in by all the 'gear' not knowing what all is truly involved in order to perform and the highest level.

[Kuoppis]

I sometimes regret getting into analog audio. If I would have been more wisely I could now have a far more simple and probably a better audio system.

In your case it would be a very simple decision for me: if you don’t enjoy it, don’t do it. Sell your analogue gear and focus on what you like. You do have some nice gear, and will get some change for it.

As this hobby is purely a free choice-based money pit, I would not do anything I don’t thoroughly enjoy.


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