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  1. #151
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    Why no turntable?

    I’m strongly considering adding Analog, but strictly under budget and in comparison to what I have assembled, I’m curious if what I spend will be worth it?

    The Clear Audio Concept interests me and their phono amp; will it bring me the best qualities analog is known for?

    Will it be better or just different than my digital?

    Does it matter?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
    Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS









  2. #152
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    I’m strongly considering adding Analog, but strictly under budget and in comparison to what I have assembled, I’m curious if what I spend will be worth it?

    The Clear Audio Concept interests me and their phono amp; will it bring me the best qualities analog is known for?

    Will it be better or just different than my digital?

    Does it matter?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Best qualities? It will bring you analog and give you a taste of just how good it can be. But the Concept is an entry level table with an entry level arm and cart. That being said, it will definitely tell you whether its for you to pursue further.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  3. #153

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    I don't do any such thing. It's possible to play files on the intranet or local drive(s) on laptop with high to very high (local drive) reliability, vs "stream" services like Tidal, Qobuz etc, which is internet.
    Anyone relying on internet streaming services for an audio show needs a clue.
    I've done more than a dozen shows with zero problems. To suggest zero moving parts is less reliable than archaic spinning motors dragging diamonds in plastic, is audiophile silly. Let's forget that angle for "why vinyl".
    Again, I clearly said I was talking about streaming music over the internet and not your files loaded on hard drives on your home network. Unless you have SSDs, you still have spinning motors at crazy RPMs. You still have reliability issues with your NAS, server, and DAC.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  4. #154
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Best qualities? It will bring you analog and give you a taste of just how good it can be. But the Concept is an entry level table with an entry level arm and cart. That being said, it will definitely tell you whether its for you to pursue further.
    I know your right, and what the true cost will end up being, it will be a ride.





    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
    Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS









  5. #155
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    I know your right, and what the true cost will end up being, it will be a ride.





    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    I’ll bet you will really enjoy it and begin to listen differently (entire albums vs jumping around tracks and artists). The thing with a vinyl rig is that you don’t have to go nuts (like $400,000 AF Zero).

    The VPI HW40 ($15,000) or Avid Acutus DARK ($14,000) with a Ortofon Cadenza Black or similar and a Zesto Phonostage or Manley Chinook or Luxman EQ500 would be an absolute killer rig (and a killer rig in 10 years from now).

    BUT, start with a simple, less expensive setup to make sure you really like it. I’m betting you’ll love it. If you do, don’t forget to budget for a record cleaning machine. Everyone bitches about the cost of them, until they get it and then say it’s the best investment they’ve ever made. ClearAudio Double Matrix is the best. But Uber $$$. But worth it IMO.

    I would grab a few Music Matters jazz albums before they’re all gone, unless you’re not into jazz. Then, start to research some of your favorite albums and find the good pressings (Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc, Discogs). Pay attention to the source of the pressing (if it’s tape, rock on. If it’s digital files, proceed with caution.). For example, the most recent Led Zeppelin releases are cut from the 24/96 files. When you compare those to any of the Classic Records (cut from the master tapes, and the last time those tapes were touched), it’s game over. I’m listening to Led Zeppelin II (Classic Records) right now and it’s incredible. That being said, the latest pressings aren’t bad and are cheap compared to finding a Classic Records release.

    For fun, pick up a first pressing of the 1965 Frank Sinatra Strangers in the Night. —> https://www.discogs.com/sell/item/892086462

    Buy 10 albums to start. That will get you going.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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  6. #156
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Again, I clearly said I was talking about streaming music over the internet and not your files loaded on hard drives on your home network. Unless you have SSDs, you still have spinning motors at crazy RPMs. You still have reliability issues with your NAS, server, and DAC.
    Yes SSDs. But even regular HDs are more reliable than turntables. I have (knock on wood) zero reliability issues with any digital. Period.
    But you went further, you clearly implied that digital was not as reliable as LPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Digital also isn't as stable as vinyl. If you are into streaming and you lose your internet connection, you are screwed until you get your connection back. Analog people can spool up a tape or put an LP on and have sonic bliss. I haven't been to an audio show yet where several digital only rooms were silent because they couldn't get their digital rigs to work. Digital isn't without its own headaches despite what some people say.
    The bolded part is, quite frankly, nonsense. Poor internet connectivity has nothing to do with "digital" playback reliability, which is superior to any form of archaic "analog". You are conflating digital with internet.
    If the internet goes down, queue up a CD or a local file or a network file. Instantly.

  7. #157
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I’ll bet you will really enjoy it and begin to listen differently (entire albums vs jumping around tracks and artists). The thing with a vinyl rig is that you don’t have to go nuts (like $400,000 AF Zero).
    this point is a biggie for me. Shuffle play, play lists, yada yada is nothing more than muzak. would you listen the 4th movement of Pathétique first and then jump back to the 2nd? im not the arbiter of good taste or really care what one does within the confines of their domicile, but skipping around tracks is akin to starting a book on chapter 12 then going straight to chapter 3 then starting a new book on chapter 7 before you even finish the first book! Do you also fast forward through movies just the watch the end and then rewind to the middle? or eat dessert between the 1st and 2nd to last course? its moronic. the next thing you'll be admitting to is regularly listening to yer $500k of hifi 50 ft away off the patio deck while reading the paper

  8. #158
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    this point is a biggie for me. Shuffle play, play lists, yada yada is nothing more than muzak. would you listen the 4th movement of Pathétique first and then jump back to the 2nd? im not the arbiter of good taste or really care what one does within the confines of their domicile, but skipping around tracks is akin to starting a book on chapter 12 then going straight to chapter 3 then starting a new book on chapter 7 before you even finish the first book! Do you also fast forward through movies just the watch the end and then rewind to the middle? or eat dessert first? its moronic. the next thing you'll be admitting to is regularly listening to yer $500k of hifi 50 ft away off the patio deck while reading the paper
    Bingo. In the digital domain, I can’t tell you the last time I listened to an entire album all the way through, then played it all the way through again. But right now I’ve got a MOFI release of CSNY Deja Vu playing through for the second time in a row.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  9. #159
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    I know your right, and what the true cost will end up being, it will be a ride.





    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    This is a GREAT list to work from:

    https://www.analogplanet.com/content...s-worth-owning
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  10. #160
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    I’m listening now to two new CDs I bought and ripped today. So far, with the first CD there are two tracks, out of 16, that I will add to my Rock playlist. Now to listen to the 2nd CD, and find it’s decent tracks.
    Bud

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  11. #161
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Bingo. In the digital domain, I can’t tell you the last time I listened to an entire album all the way through, then played it all the way through again. But right now I’ve got a MOFI release of CSNY Deja Vu playing through for the second time in a row.
    I can’t tell you the last time I found ONE Album that I didn’t want to skip at least one track. I can’t remember the last album that didn’t have a shit track unworthy of a second listen. Why would I waste 3 1/2 minutes listening to something I don’t enjoy? I don’t eat crappy food just because some chef presents it to me. I don’t stand in front of a painting that doesn’t capture my attention.

    Puroagave’s example of us re-sequenceing music or books for fun is plain hyperbole. We do it to not waste time listening to crappy tracks not because we are hyper kinetic.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
    Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
    Digital: dCS Vivaldi APEX DAC, Clock & Upsampler
    Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
    Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
    Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata
    Power Conditioner - Shunyata Everest

  12. #162
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    this point is a biggie for me. Shuffle play, play lists, yada yada is nothing more than muzak. would you listen the 4th movement of Pathétique first and then jump back to the 2nd? im not the arbiter of good taste or really care what one does within the confines of their domicile, but skipping around tracks is akin to starting a book on chapter 12 then going straight to chapter 3 then starting a new book on chapter 7 before you even finish the first book! Do you also fast forward through movies just the watch the end and then rewind to the middle? or eat dessert between the 1st and 2nd to last course? its moronic. the next thing you'll be admitting to is regularly listening to yer $500k of hifi 50 ft away off the patio deck while reading the paper
    Depending on what’s playing, I will jump around unless it’s an excellent recording then I’m listening to both the music and the system.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
    Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS









  13. #163
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Bingo. In the digital domain, I can’t tell you the last time I listened to an entire album all the way through, then played it all the way through again. But right now I’ve got a MOFI release of CSNY Deja Vu playing through for the second time in a row.
    It’s a great album, this is one you can listen straight through


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
    Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS









  14. #164

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Yes SSDs. But even regular HDs are more reliable than turntables. I have (knock on wood) zero reliability issues with any digital. Period.
    But you went further, you clearly implied that digital was not as reliable as LPs.


    The bolded part is, quite frankly, nonsense. Poor internet connectivity has nothing to do with "digital" playback reliability, which is superior to any form of archaic "analog". You are conflating digital with internet.
    If the internet goes down, queue up a CD or a local file or a network file. Instantly.
    You’re picking fly shit out of pepper now AJ. If your only source for digital music is streaming, you are screwed if you lose your internet connection. Next you will argue that no one does that. If you are using a headless server and your WiFi goes down, your remote app won’t work.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  15. #165

    Re: Why no turntable?

    At one point I was very much into vinyl but these days with the convenience, not to mention the “economics” of streaming services and virtually unlimited selection of music, it is difficult for me to convince myself to get back into it. That’s not to say I didn’t appreciate the analog qualities of vinyl playback with a good turntable, cartridge and phonostage.

  16. #166
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Digital also isn't as stable as vinyl.
    You’re picking fly shit out of pepper now AJ.

    You made the ridiculous claim. Quoted! for brevity.

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    If your only source for digital music is streaming, you are screwed if you lose your internet connection. Next you will argue that no one does that. If you are using a headless server and your WiFi goes down, your remote app won’t work.
    You've been reduced to ifs.
    And you're going to argue everyone "digital" streams and digital is the same as internet.
    Sorry, it isn't. One can be full digital with zero internet. Was so for years.

  17. #167
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Btw, I don't know a single audiophile whose only source of music is streaming. Teen kids, sure. Audiophile, not one.
    I do know countless audiophiles who are digital only...with no streaming whatsoever.
    CDs came out in the 80s. Plenty folks went full digital that far back. Tidal launched in 2014. Gimme a break that audiophiles were streaming Spotify only as there music source prior.

  18. #168
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Btw, I don't know a single audiophile whose only source of music is streaming. Teen kids, sure. Audiophile, not one.
    I do know countless audiophiles who are digital only...with no streaming whatsoever.
    CDs came out in the 80s. Plenty folks went full digital that far back. Tidal launched in 2014. Gimme a break that audiophiles were streaming Spotify only as there music source prior.
    I do. .
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  19. #169
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    No CDs, SACDs, no Lumin files, etc? Only stream these days?
    Swore you had an MQA CD not far back....

  20. #170
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    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    No CDs, SACDs, no Lumin files, etc? Only stream these days?
    Swore you had an MQA CD not far back....
    Not me. A client of mine. He’s 100% streaming.

    Me? 12,000 LP’s, 2,000+ CD’s and SACD’s, 50+ tapes. I have a really bad habit of buying music. I probably buy 10+ albums a month or more. I’m running out of room. But that won’t stop me.

    I stream to find albums and then buy the CD, SACD, LP. But honestly, I mostly listen to music from the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s, so I just order it if the pressing is expected to be good.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  21. #171

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post

    You made the ridiculous claim. Quoted! for brevity.
    It's not ridiculous because it happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    You've been reduced to ifs.
    And you're going to argue everyone "digital" streams and digital is the same as internet.
    Sorry, it isn't. One can be full digital with zero internet. Was so for years.
    You like to put words in peoples' mouths to lend credence to your arguments. Lots of people stream music. Yes, you can be full digital with zero internet, but most people who are into digital have both. I never said that digital streaming and listening to digital files from your hard drive was the same.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  22. #172

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I do. .
    Exactly.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  23. #173
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    It's not ridiculous because it happens.
    It's ridiculous because "digital" is infinitely more reliable than turntables, period. Turntable unreliability "happens" too, a lot more often.
    Your hand waving and red herrings not withstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    I never said that digital streaming and listening to digital files from your hard drive was the same.
    Because it isn't and is a red herring/false equivalence of your creation. I quoted your claim multiple times.
    If one has internet issues, get a new ISP, or start using digital files.
    Both are still far more reliable than 19th century needle dragging tech.

    Why no turntable?
    Because they are not as reliable.

  24. #174
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Exactly.
    And how often do they have ISP fails?

  25. #175
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Best qualities? It will bring you analog and give you a taste of just how good it can be. But the Concept is an entry level table with an entry level arm and cart. That being said, it will definitely tell you whether its for you to pursue further.
    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    I know your right, and what the true cost will end up being, it will be a ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    ...The VPI HW40 ($15,000) or Avid Acutus DARK ($14,000) with a Ortofon Cadenza Black or similar and a Zesto Phonostage or Manley Chinook or Luxman EQ500 would be an absolute killer rig (and a killer rig in 10 years from now)....BUT, start with a simple, less expensive setup to make sure you really like it.
    herein lies the conundrum...

    ~$5k seems to only get you a teaser analog rig which, presumably, will be unsatisfying.
    ~25k gets you a killer rig which brings out the "best qualities" of vinyl... which is the whole point here, right?

    believe me, i really want to add analog... but, the $5k route seems inefficient. why not just go straight to the intended destination? so, looks like $25k is the price to get past the velvet rope and that is a different set of calculus...

    is adding a good analog source really worth $25k?
    why not just go all-in on digital with a killer DAC?
    heck, why not rent a house in tuscany for a year and enjoy the weather, food and wine?

    in the end, maybe just too much puritan frugality standing between me and vinyl bliss.
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  26. #176
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    herein lies the conundrum...

    ~$5k seems to only get you a teaser analog rig which, presumably, will be unsatisfying.
    ~25k gets you a killer rig which brings out the "best qualities" of vinyl... which is the whole point here, right?

    believe me, i really want to add analog... but, the $5k route seems inefficient. why not just go straight to the intended destination? so, looks like $25k is the price to get past the velvet rope and that is a different set of calculus...

    is adding a good analog source really worth $25k?
    why not just go all-in on digital with a killer DAC?
    heck, why not rent a house in tuscany for a year and enjoy the weather, food and wine?

    in the end, maybe just too much puritan frugality standing between me and vinyl bliss.
    All valid points. I’m part of a few groups of vinyl lovers and 95% don’t have a analog rig more than a VPI Prime or even VPI Scout or similar from Avid or ClearAudio. These folks start out with a few records from GoodWill for 75 cents. Within a few months they are buying Music Matters, Analog Productions, MOFI, finding rare first pressings, etc. You NEVER EVER EVER hear them say, “oh geez, I should have bought a CD player.” In fact, I had to look hard to find a group dedicated to CD’s (I found ONE). But there are dozens of vinyl groups. Hell, there is a group dedicated to just Music Matters pressings - and there are only about 165 (I have them all). There are groups just for MOFI pressings. Vinyl collector groups are everywhere. That’s the fun.

    My point is that it becomes more about the collecting of the records and the listening to them, then who’s got the best turntable. In fact, most guys don’t give a shit which turntable you have. They’re more interested in your take on a particular new pressing or a rare old one.

    I haven’t witnessed too many turntable fights. Why? Because the turntable guys want them all and love them all. I would love that black gold AF3 TT. OMG, it’s so pretty and yet, I sell AF’s number one competitor - Kronos. I would love an SME, Kuzma or ClearAudio. There isn’t a bad one in the bunch.

    The only squabbles I’ve seen is when you see things getting out of hand like $35,000 tone arms and $400,000 tables. Are they good products? Sure, but as I’ve said, buy the $25K rig instead and get $375,000 worth of records!

    So you start with a simple setup and start enjoying a part of the hobby you may not have ever experienced before or haven’t done for a long time. Unlikely you will be thinking of a better turntable for a few years. You will be probably more focused on finding that Japanese pressing of DSOTM.
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    wow!! now that is a convincing argument and, i think, answers the question posed in the OP definitively.

    i am in... project for 2020
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  28. #178
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    wow!! now that is a convincing argument and, i think, answers the question posed in the OP definitively.

    i am in... project for 2020
    Awesome! Looking forward to seeing it.
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  29. #179
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Even $5k is a lot to "try" vinyl again. I had vinyl. In the day it really was the only choice for top flight sound. I had Nakamichi decks and a top flight tuner as alternatives to listening to turntable. The tape was mainly used to make my own playlists (I make and delete playlists all the time now). But at that time vinyl was the only game in town.

    Now, yes vinyl is a "thing" and I know a few who love the albums and "playing" with their turntables and record cleaning machines. I personally do not look back fondly to the days when I cleaned an album with every playing (other wise I feared that I would damage that fragile vinyl disk)... very loud first generation VPI machine... and constantly making sure my SME III arm was adjusted as good as possible, and making sure the my Grace Ruby cartridge was perfectly clean. And my ex did break off the ruby cantilever and stylus once when she was "dusting".

    Honestly, I don't look back to those days fondly. And when I listen to a friend with a 1/4 million dollar rig and the first thing I hear is pops and clicks I go home and listen to the DSD512 decoded output from my T+A ($4500 retail) and I smile, enjoying it a ton more than his turntable (no idea costs) and his $30k phono pre (Audio Research Ref 10 phono pre-amp). This is just me, of course he swears by his vinyl and that is 100% ok. To each his own!
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  30. #180
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    If you’re phased only by analog noise and not by digital noise , then congrats , the rest of us will have to just struggle along , enjoying both of course ...



    Regards

  31. #181
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    And how often do they have ISP fails?
    Every powercut ....






  32. #182
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    All valid points. I’m part of a few groups of vinyl lovers and 95% don’t have a analog rig more than a VPI Prime or even VPI Scout or similar from Avid or ClearAudio. These folks start out with a few records from GoodWill for 75 cents. Within a few months they are buying Music Matters, Analog Productions, MOFI, finding rare first pressings, etc. You NEVER EVER EVER hear them say, “oh geez, I should have bought a CD player.” In fact, I had to look hard to find a group dedicated to CD’s (I found ONE). But there are dozens of vinyl groups. Hell, there is a group dedicated to just Music Matters pressings - and there are only about 165 (I have them all). There are groups just for MOFI pressings. Vinyl collector groups are everywhere. That’s the fun.

    My point is that it becomes more about the collecting of the records and the listening to them, then who’s got the best turntable. In fact, most guys don’t give a shit which turntable you have. They’re more interested in your take on a particular new pressing or a rare old one.

    I haven’t witnessed too many turntable fights. Why? Because the turntable guys want them all and love them all. I would love that black gold AF3 TT. OMG, it’s so pretty and yet, I sell AF’s number one competitor - Kronos. I would love an SME, Kuzma or ClearAudio. There isn’t a bad one in the bunch.

    The only squabbles I’ve seen is when you see things getting out of hand like $35,000 tone arms and $400,000 tables. Are they good products? Sure, but as I’ve said, buy the $25K rig instead and get $375,000 worth of records!

    So you start with a simple setup and start enjoying a part of the hobby you may not have ever experienced before or haven’t done for a long time. Unlikely you will be thinking of a better turntable for a few years. You will be probably more focused on finding that Japanese pressing of DSOTM.

    Apparently getting out of hand starts at 5 K ...

    Did you list your 5K- 25K system options , interesting to see what 5K can purchase at retail ..



    Regards

  33. #183
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    It's very rewarding once you find that perfect combo, though!
    True. My analog system is sounding decent. But still a loooong way of from what's possible. If you have less then 10k to spend on analogue. Just don't.
    Pre amp: Ocatve Phono Module Power amps: Octave MRE130 Turntable: SAC Girati Grande. Tonearm: Dynavector 507mkII Cartridge: Dynavector Ikeda 9TT Streamer: Aurender A10 Power Distributor: Anzus Mains D8 Speakers: Raidho X-3 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 XLR Interlink: Ansuz A2, [B]XLR Interlink: [B]Phono interlink: Cammino Serie 1.0 - PH 1.0s Power cables: Anzus Mains Ceramic, two Pom, Aluminium, X series Audio Rack: Rack of Silence 4 and 2.

  34. #184
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Analog TT is driven more by setup , combination and alignment than cost. There are basic TT Jungle laws if followed narrows the gap. The really top notch expensive stuff allows a wider performance window going from pressing to pressing , pulling more out of the groove so to speak...


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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    If you’re phased only by analog noise and not by digital noise , then congrats , the rest of us will have to just struggle along , enjoying both of course ...



    Regards
    I can't/won't dispute this. All I can say is that I rarely notice anything that I would classify as digital noise (I'm also sure it is there but it does not appear to affect me much), but I instantly notice noise from any vinyl system I hear, weather it is the tell tale pops and clicks or the inherent low level hums, etc., that seem to be the norm in phono listening. Then again I have never owned or lived with systems the level that I see discussed here. Us middle class worker bees would never be able to wildly consider spending $25k + on a vinyl setup.
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  36. #186
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    I rarely notice anything that I would classify as digital noise
    That's because you can't hear inside Mr Waynes head where it originates/resides.
    It doesn't exist in physical reality of measurable soudwaves, or else it would be demonstrable, like LP snap, crackle, pop.
    No imagination needed to hear, or surprise, surprise, measure that. Because it's real.
    Vinylphiles somehow ignore it, we can't. I have heard relatively quiet vinyl playback. Actually sounds great with stuff like Elvis, etc, better than the digital release versions. Then they queue up some classical....

  37. #187
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    That's because you can't hear inside Mr Waynes head where it originates/resides.
    It doesn't exist in physical reality of measurable soudwaves, or else it would be demonstrable, like LP snap, crackle, pop.
    No imagination needed to hear, or surprise, surprise, measure that. Because it's real.
    Vinylphiles somehow ignore it, we can't. I have heard relatively quiet vinyl playback. Actually sounds great with stuff like Elvis, etc, better than the digital release versions. Then they queue up some classical....

    Well if your ears weren't connected to a 486 you could hear alot of things ..

  38. #188
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    I can't/won't dispute this. All I can say is that I rarely notice anything that I would classify as digital noise (I'm also sure it is there but it does not appear to affect me much), but I instantly notice noise from any vinyl system I hear, weather it is the tell tale pops and clicks or the inherent low level hums, etc., that seem to be the norm in phono listening. Then again I have never owned or lived with systems the level that I see discussed here. Us middle class worker bees would never be able to wildly consider spending $25k + on a vinyl setup.

    Low level hum is not apart of analog TT , again if you cant live with the clicks and pops of analog TT i get it , nothing wrong with that ..



    Regards

  39. #189
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Well if your ears weren't connected to a 486 you could hear alot of things ..
    And if you and MEP upgraded from 56k modems you might be alright

  40. #190

    Why no turntable?

    Blondes...Brunettes
    Ferraris...Porsches
    Gibsons...Fenders
    Vinyl...Digital
    Why choose only one?




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  41. #191
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    When I got back into Audio I was going to build a budget system around a pair of Snell speakers I bought in 1993, this included a turn table - the budget was blown and no turntable.

    I now want to add a simple vinyl system, despite wanting Brinkmann, betting on my foundation will give a serious contribution in sound quality, and I am not going over the top, I can’t and won’t!

    Right now I am interested in Clear Audio top of the line Concept and their balanced Phono Stage, for less then $5000 unless anyone else has a suggestion in this league.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    No Ed, don't do it. It is as big a hole as digital. Never ending trying to extract the best. And its hard. Very hard to learn and really set up right. Joe can set it up, but, he sells VPI. Then you need a phono preamp. Another pit of what to get. How to select. Then the cartridge. More owe my god. It will keep you from listening to music. And, your digital setup is going to slaughter any vinyl rig unless you spend $30K or more. Your really are at the pinnacle of digital. It will be hard to match it.

    Owe yea, it takes up a lot of room because it needs a dedicated stand to meet the expectation you are going to place on it. And where is that going to go in your listening room. Your speakers are very powerful. They will inject sound waves right into any TT near them.
    First Sound Mark3SI preamp. Audion Black Shadow 845 SET Monoblocks. Mojo Audio Deja Vu Server. Mojo Audio Mystic 3 DAC. Linear Solution Ethernet Switch. Gigafoil with LPS. STST Motus II TT with Vertere SG1 arm, Hana ML Cartridge, Allnic H1201 phono pre. Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn speakers with Mundord Supreme oil caps. Power via 10 awg Oyaide cable from panel to custom distribution strip feeding front end. Oyaide dedicated10 AWG branch circuits from panel to each amp. Inakustik speaker and interconnect cables, Genesis Interconnect.
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  42. #192
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Aside from the cost and maintenance hassle, the biggest issue for me with analog is you can’t create playlists of songs you like. Being able to do that with my Lumin gives me hours of uninterrupted pleasure listening to music.
    Bud

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  43. #193
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    No Ed, don't do it. It is as big a hole as digital. Never ending trying to extract the best. And its hard. Very hard to learn and really set up right. Joe can set it up, but, he sells VPI. Then you need a phono preamp. Another pit of what to get. How to select. Then the cartridge. More owe my god. It will keep you from listening to music. And, your digital setup is going to slaughter any vinyl rig unless you spend $30K or more. Your really are at the pinnacle of digital. It will be hard to match it.

    Owe yea, it takes up a lot of room because it needs a dedicated stand to meet the expectation you are going to place on it. And where is that going to go in your listening room. Your speakers are very powerful. They will inject sound waves right into any TT near them.
    The bottle of poison is in my hand Why no turntable?


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  44. #194
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    i assume most here have seen this new yorker cartoon. if not, enjoy...

    Attached Images Attached Images
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  45. #195
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    The bottle of poison is in my hand
    Another one bits the dust ...

    I could never go back. All the hassles associated with vinyl would interfere with my enjoyment of music. I hear people say the hassles of digital , and I wonder how in the world is digital more of a hassle then caring for and setting up a turntable and keeping said table from ruining my albums.... and storage of those albums and record cleaning machines and isolating that table from sound waves in the room, and.... and... and... and then my head starts spinning...

    especially when I know how straight forward and simple digital can be... much less so if you do not depend on streaming and "services" but instead keep your music locally.
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  46. #196
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    the biggest issue for me with analog is you can’t create playlists of songs you like. Being able to do that with my Lumin gives me hours of uninterrupted pleasure listening to music.
    A true music lover listens to entire albums start to finish, no matter how torturous individual tracks are. Take the pain.
    Oddly enough, I listened to 2 Rachmaninoff symphonies back to back last night...on my digital rig. No irresistible urge to hit shuffle/random play. Weird.

    Btw, speaking of "analog" playlists, aren't cassettes making a comeback?

  47. #197
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    Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    The bottle of poison is in my hand Why no turntable?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Most of those telling you not to do it, don’t presently own a turntable. Hmmm. And memories are a fickle thing. I don’t know who “Joe” is, but VPI is a real good one. Get a Prime and a nice Ortofon or similar cart and you’re in your budget.

    Setup is hard? No. And it’s something you should learn anyway. Reading glasses help. Buy and watch this video and you’ll have a new skill —> https://www.amazon.com/21st-Century-.../dp/B000HA4WU2

    There are dozens of videos online as well like this one:

    https://youtu.be/VfJnMtolAWo

    But I would definitely get the Fremer one and watch it. That being said, I’m sure your dealer will set it up for you, but frankly, it’s really a skill you want to know yourself. You will need a few basic tools and you’re on your way. VPI’s come with a scale.

    Phonostage? SimAudio makes one for about $300. iFi too (iPhono 2). You can go up from there. The Manley Chinook is a killer for the $$.


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  48. #198
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    The only problem with the Fremer one is that he is a pompous ass ... I admit to not watching this dvd/video, however I have seen videos and read many a review. I watched the video where speakers were being delivered to his "listening space" (I can't in good conscience call it a listening room). I have never seen a bigger mess in my life and the way he treats insanely expensive gear is simply overwhelming, frustrating, irritating, and above all else disrespectful.
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  49. #199

    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    The only problem with the Fremer one is that he is a pompous ass ... I admit to not watching this dvd/video, however I have seen videos and read many a review. I watched the video where speakers were being delivered to his "listening space" (I can't in good conscience call it a listening room). I have never seen a bigger mess in my life and the way he treats insanely expensive gear is simply overwhelming, frustrating, irritating, and above all else disrespectful.
    So why is Fremer a "pompous ass?"
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  50. #200
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    He has always been kind to me and you know what? When we launched the Florida Audio Expo, Jason and Michael from Stereophile jumped right in to cover it and all the guys from Part Time Audiophile and Enjoy The Music too. The guys from TAS told us to go pound sand. Michael gave several seminars that people are still talking about today. I don’t forget those things.


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Why no turntable?

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