Why no turntable? - Page 32
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  1. #311
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    I'm a "fan" of science, both those fields included. What I'm not a fan of is crackpots using their "credentials" (classic Appeal to Authority fallacy) to hide behind the guise of "scientific authority", while positing utter nonsense hidden in obscure publications that have zero vetting. The disclaimer at bottom of the articles says it all.
    The good Dr knows better than to publish that in any sort of scientific journal with peer review, where he would look like a total fool. He has strayed waaay outside his actual field of expertise with this one, in rather embarrassing fashion. Of course he intends to appeal to fellow believers, not scientifically informed readers. Hence where he posted this.
    Understood, I would imagine that his doctoral thesis that this article appears to be loosely based on would have been peer reviewed. However, I do agree with you that our critical thinking should not stop at the end of the article and that we should be attuned to both the accuracy and agenda of the author.

    Thank you for reminding us all to adopt a healthy skepticism when consuming content pulled from the web, but AJ but please bear in mind, this sword cuts both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    You're welcome and thanks for posting, obviously I would not have seen otherwise. There is no thesis there, just inane ramblings about some old decrepit deaf rocker trying to ascribe his mental health issues to external physical properties of "digital" processing. As I said previously, just another example of the unease of audiophiles - needing an "objective" crutch to "validate" their purely subjective preferences. Nothing new here at all.

    cheers,

    AJ

    p.s. as also stated many times, I too occasionally enjoy the sound of vinyl, just not for any idiotic "neurobiological" reason other than I like the sound. Just like digital.
    I do believe that you're getting wrapped up in his perceived indictment of digital recording. Since he seems to be attacking your field of expertise, I would expect a little rancor. Nonetheless, I do think that there is a valid thesis lurking in this article and my synthesized and stylized (and possibly romanticized) version of his thesis is a derivation of the Turing test; rather than asking "can a machine be made to think like a human well enough to deceive another human?", his question is "can a machine be made to hear like a human?". And since the doctor is admittedly not an engineer, his approach to address this conundrum originates naturally from the neurobiological direction, the application of the biomechanics of how a person "hears" at a molecular/synaptic level. Now we can debate whether this research holds any value and for that I can say that I honestly don't know. Could we also speculate on whether that research would result in the development of digital audio reproduction technologies that reorient some subjective differences in musical reproduction into objective differences, I don't know that either. But as I mentioned earlier, I see no reason to summarily dismiss his research simply because it conflicts with my prevailing biases. And many would admit that it is an interesting thought exercise, can the process of hearing be broken down into discrete bits of code, and once the biomechanical process has been reverse-engineered, can it be reapplied and introduced back into the field of digital audio reproduction to improve the overall listener experience?
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  3. #312
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    You misunderstand. The Drs entire "thesis" is based on nonsense. That the sample rate determines the time resolution of the signal. His quoted number is nonsense. Everything after that basis, including human verified limits, is nonsense.
    Furthermore, using the mental health issues of an old deaf, electric guitar rock concert musician, as some form of sonic reference is nonsense. The false dichotomy between "scientists/engineers" and "musicians" is nonsense. Neil Young isn't "musicians". He's just a sample of one dotard.
    The entire article is new age believer nonsense. THAT is why it appears in "Fair Observer", not any sort of scientific journal.

    P.s. You probably don't know about my experiments with believers like the good Dr. and exactly what he is "theorizing" about "digital".
    The empirical results are very funny indeed.

  4. #313
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by thase13 View Post
    If thatís how you interpret it, then I respect your opinion.

    My interpretation is different than yours, I view it as the author trying to reconcile (to himself and others) the intellectual chasm dividing the scientific absolutists and the empirical rationalists. Ironically, it appears that the loosely constructed argument you employ in you dismissal of his theory serves as an extant example of the musicians vs. engineers debate and the asymmetrical advantages the scientific absolutists hold over the empirical rationalists. However, subjectively deconstructing the structure of a thesis is not the same as objectively refuting its central point.

    While Iím not prepared to embrace the authorís ideas, Iím also not in a rush to dismiss them based on my own prevailing dogma. It opens up some interesting avenues of inquiry, even when only used as a thought exercise.
    Iím not ďdismissing his theoryĒ, in fact Iím not commenting on it at all except to point out that is not based on any science, it is based on philosophy, and so shouldnít be presented as a scientfic argument.
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  5. #314
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    You misunderstand. The Drs entire "thesis" is based on nonsense. That the sample rate determines the time resolution of the signal. His quoted number is nonsense. Everything after that basis, including human verified limits, is nonsense.
    Furthermore, using the mental health issues of an old deaf, electric guitar rock concert musician, as some form of sonic reference is nonsense. The false dichotomy between "scientists/engineers" and "musicians" is nonsense. Neil Young isn't "musicians". He's just a sample of one dotard.
    The entire article is new age believer nonsense. THAT is why it appears in "Fair Observer", not any sort of scientific journal.

    P.s. You probably don't know about my experiments with believers like the good Dr. and exactly what he is "theorizing" about "digital".
    The empirical results are very funny indeed.
    Fair enough. My background is not in either acoustic engineering or neurobiology so I will most certainly defer to your expertise.

    Sadly online isn't the ideal environment to engage in deep conversations because there are a couple of things you've written that I'd love to have you expound on. I think it would be educational and enlightening for me and quite possibly amusing and entertaining for you.

    I appreciate and enjoyed the conversation, AJ. Thank you.
    Primary System: TechDAS Air Force Two Premium; SAT 9" Tonearm; Air Tight Opus 1; Constellation Audio Virgo III; Constellation Audio Perseus; Constellation Audio Performance DC Filter; Constellation Audio Centaur II 500 Stereo; Magico M3 w/MPODs; Kubala Sosna Sensation; Shunyata Hydra Triton v3/Typhon QR, Sigma NR power cords; TedhDAS Disc Stabilizer Ultimate Tungsten; Artesania Exoteryc 3+3 Rack w/TechDAS Platform; Artesania Aire Floor Platform; Degritter RCM; Clearaudio Double Matrix Professional Sonic RCM; DS Audio ION-001 Vinyl Ionizer

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  6. #315
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    back to our regularly scheduled programming...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    $5k analog budget:

    VPI Scout Prime - $2500
    Ortofon 2M Bronze - $400
    SimAudio 110LPV2 - $400
    AudioQuest phono cable - $300

    Spend the rest on records or get the nice ISOACOUSTICS TT platform...
    the simAudio 110LP v2 looks like a winner... just having researched a number of similar phonos with similar capabilities and pricing, this one seems to have comparably much better specs and a number of quite good reviews.

    have not heard any of them but it would seem hard to go wrong here with the 110LP v2 for an entry-level / analog-trial setup?
    digital : kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd | analog: feickert venti > orotfon spu royal gm mk2 > audio creative grooveMaster-ii
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  8. #316
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    back to our regularly scheduled programming...



    the simAudio 110LP v2 looks like a winner... just having researched a number of similar phonos with similar capabilities and pricing, this one seems to have comparably much better specs and a number of quite good reviews.

    have not heard any of them but it would seem hard to go wrong here with the 110LP v2 for an entry-level / analog-trial setup?
    Agreed. We have it here in the store and itís crazy good for the money.


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  9. #317
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    I have a TT, itís sitting on my rack and never gets used. Too much hassle compared to using my iPad and flipping through Roon.


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  10. #318
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    The simAudio is a phone stage, Correct?

    Compared to the two others recommended in this thread; the Vista Audio or the Lounge Audio?

    Or the MoFi? They are all in the same range.
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  11. #319
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    The simAudio is a phone stage, Correct?

    Compared to the two others recommended in this thread; the Vista Audio or the Lounge Audio?

    Or the MoFi? They are all in the same range.
    yes -- simAudio 110LP v2 -- is a MM/MC phono stage

    mofi, lounge, vista, iFi and lehmann were others i specifically looked at... as mentioned, i have not heard any of these. just going on specs, reviews and relative price -- absolutely nothing "scientific" here.

    there are a lot of others out there as well such as pro-ject, schiit, etc.

    are you using the on-board phono stage on the u-turn? any impressions?
    digital : kanjiroba yak + roon rock > t+a dac8 dsd | analog: feickert venti > orotfon spu royal gm mk2 > audio creative grooveMaster-ii
    output:
    almarro a318b > viking acoustics berlin r mk2 | other: alp-tone audio alp.wE analog cables | massif audio rack

  12. #320
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    I have a TT, it’s sitting on my rack and never gets used. Too much hassle compared to using my iPad and flipping through Roon.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm kind of burning out on mine too after a few days. When I play it, I listen to it. Takes too much attention. When I put my digital files back on its like Ahhh. I can just sit back and enjoy the music. It's like I notice the TT. Even when it was a stock RP6 with the Allnic Phono pre. I noticed the TT. That caused me to start upgrading it. It's way beyond where it started. But I still notice it. It's casing me to be too involved in the music which is detracting from the music for me.

    Additionally, I have 1 album I think sounds better in vinyl than what I have in digital. So far. There are lots I have not compared. Who cares if they are not the same bla bla bla. Point is, everything I like and play sound better on my digital setup. I said once before. I have a lot of tube gear feeding open baffle horn loaded speakers. It's quiet as tubes can be, but still tube. I am guessing the synergy in my setup is better to have a very clean quiet digital source feeding into my tube chain. Just a thought. Maybe a case of To Much Of A Good Thing. Or I just have $7,000 of crap vinyl equipment and bought the wrong equipment. Having played it next to VPI gear, it sounded good to me, but who knows. I could not tell much difference between a $3k and $15K table. Of course I was at a foreign setup and everything sound so different. Also, the owner will not play a record twice. So everything was different. No way to really go back and forth to understand what changed.

    I'm not getting rid of my vinyl. I just have little incentive to play the upgrade/invest more game. I'm darn happy with the digital front end.
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