On the topic of pseudo-science and high end audio

**TheOctopus** · July 5, 2019, 01:21 AM

This may not be a very popular topic with some of the "audiophiles" but here goes...

Nothing bothers me more about high end audio than some of the wild pseudo-science claims by some manufacturers. It has been a pet peeve of mine for a very long time and it does not seem to get any more rational as times moves forward. Now, I understand that manufacturers are in the business to sell their product, hence innovative designs from some that truly make a difference, to the "me too" companies and all the way down to some incredible BS and pseudo-science jargon thrown around to lure the audiophile.

I've noticed some really intelligent people buying into it, ignoring logic, common sense and worse yet, going against their actual scientific knowledge in the quest of better audio performance? How or why does that happen in the high end audio hobby so often? Now, we all know the Federal Trade Commission is not going to crack down on these wild claims from some of these folks who are trying to sell us their snake oil at exuberant prices and mind blowing profits for the simple reason it does not cause any harm to people but imagine if some of these claims were put to the test in other industries.

I have no beef with the audio gear/component manufacturers, they cost what they cost, take it or leave it, some are budget oriented, some are stratospheric in price but I have hardly ever heard of any amplifier, preamplifier or speaker manufacturer resort to pseudo-science in their marketing efforts. It is the cables and accessories that seem to resort to those tactics and for obvious reasons.

Let's not name any names to protect the guilty but have an open, adult discussion on this.

If you have a favorite example of some pseudo-science marketing, don't hesitate to share but let's keep the product brand names out of the discussion. No need for that, "caveat emptor" as the saying goes...

I guess I'll start.

A receptacle that through nano-crystalline carbon and ceramic powder generates negative ions to eliminate static and converts "thermal energy" into infrared..... Umm, OK, never mind that a receptacle has absolutely NOTHING to do with generating negative IONS as they occur in nature through various mechanisms none of which relate to a receptacle in any way, even remotely. The negative ION generators are HIGH VOLTAGE devices designed to ionize air molecules and let's just say you don't want THAT voltage in your receptacle....

I'm not even sure what to say about the "thermal energy and infrared" here....

Yes please, I'll take a dozen!

Why resort to such tactics? Does it really benefit them in the long run? What do you guys think, maybe I'm missing something here?

The counter argument is always "But I do hear a difference" so it must be “your” ears or “your” system that does not resolve the difference in that $3k cable or a $5k power conditioner, a $300 receptacle with carbon fiber face plate, etc....

**BlueFox** · July 5, 2019, 01:38 AM

I’m not sure I understand your point.

**TheOctopus** · July 5, 2019, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by BlueFox

I’m not sure I understand your point.

My point is very simple.

We'd like to introduce you to our new a set of system cables!

After years of tireless research, we proudly present the "AudioFantasy Pyramids" (tm) which are now in production phase!

Technology and construction:

Our newest and patent awaiting technology of using the finest, Tibetan mountain region sourced copper is put through the electrolytic refinement and purification process of superheated plasma and is subjected to repetitive coronal discharge treatment. This innovative approach has proven to be groundbreaking and revolutionary! The molecular structure of our purest, Tibetan region sourced and certified copper, after being exposed to patented PlasmaZap treatment, crystallizes in the proper and beneficial alignment under the strictest and most rigorous quality assurance program in the industry. Once the proper bulk of our raw copper has been treated for a custom order, we proceed to draw our copper cable through a specially designed and atomic clock synchronized cable forming machine with special attention to the tide and lunar phase charts.

Our pseudo-scientific approach has proven to align the copper atomic structure with favorable electron "orbits" that follow the same sacred orbital geometry of our own natural Lunar satellite (The Moon) and improve the performance of any system. We guarantee that your system has never sounded this good while playing Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" and this is just an example as any genre is sure to benefit from our patent awaiting technology. No need to analyze our statements, one listen and you will be a believer! The panel of experienced audiophiles has spoken and our cables are light-years ahead of the competition!

The precise phase and timing of the arriving signal that we have achieved through our groundbreaking methods of cable construction guarantees a drastic overall improvement and coherence of your system. You may have used the term PRAT in the past but until you have experienced what our Woolly Pyramids can unleash in your system, you have no idea how to tap your foot and snap your fingers with the new found enthusiasm. The Pace Rhythm and Timing will be simply redefined.

A word about our cable jackets:

The cryogenic treatment has been found to be detrimental to the overall balance of the system, specifically the high end frequencies, leaving most of the audiophile listening panel feeling the high end response of the system was too cold and icy. We have therefore abandoned the now outdated technology of "freezing" our cables! Our patent applied technology brings the often coveted but elusive "warmth" without tilting the overall balance of the system or robbing the system of air and resolution. The jacket we have selected through numerous listening and evaluation sessions is made of 100% genuine Peruvian Alpaca wool as the typical jacket construction and material has a detrimental effect of smearing the leading edge transients. Our wool jacket has proven to widen and deepen the soundstage as well as enhance the perceived resolution of the system with a noise floor that is below the actual floor and often extending into the sub-terrain.

With our cables there is no need to charge the dialectic with a battery, no need for any zobel network boxes, no liquid fero fluid sloshing around our cable jackets at all. The Alpaca wool generates optimal amount of static to counteract any of the negative effects of varying humidity and temperature fluctuations. It warms up the sound in the cold months and cools it in the hotter summer months. A perfect system balance is guaranteed throughout the seasons. For our Northern climate clients we offer a "tuning" pack of extra wool jackets slip-ons to get that elusive balance just right.

A few words about our cable geometry:

The strand geometry is based on the golden ratio of the ancient Egyptian Pyramidal construction. The golden ratio that is prevalent and abundant throughout nature and universe has proven to be the key factor in selecting the shape of our unique cables. Besides the obvious and immediately noticeable improvement in your system, the Pyramidal shape of our patented cables are also aesthetically pleasing. We feel they enhance any decor and improve upon the dreaded "Wife Acceptance Factor" by a wide margin. Most of our customers report an increase in marital satisfaction and harmony. Stand out from the crowd, your audiophile friends will be enthralled with our Alpaca wool covered, pyramidal structured cable modules straddling your system rack. Show off your passion while proudly displaying our product in your system!

A few words of caution:

Cables must not be exposed to temperatures below 45 deg F or they will require a return to the factory to reset the parameters and be subjected to Plasma Treatment for an additional fee. Shipping must also be in designated containers as the crystalline structure MUST never be exposed to rough handling as that will cause a potential shift of more than 2 or 3 degrees from the precise alignment with negative and detrimental effect on system balance.

Thank you and we at AudioFantasy look forward to taking YOUR system to new heights!

**Nikhil** · July 5, 2019, 07:43 AM

.

**AJ Soundfield** · July 5, 2019, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

The counter argument is always "But I do hear a difference"

Sure, people hear Santa at Christmas, dead relatives, feel more stable with those balance bracelets, etc, etc.
There is no limit there. The problem is that there are no subjectivists (despite the claim) in high end audio.
Only folks who need objective/pseudo-science nonsense metrics to prop up their subjective choices like crutches.
All would be fine if a $100k nano-particle quantum entanglement solid gold diamond infused wall outlet made someone happier because it sounded, subjectively, better to them. But that is never the case. It's always purely objective metrics - price, materials, construction, etc. that are posited as for why it really does "sound" better. Needless to say, this applies to everything beyond audio as well. It's human nature.
Might as well just enjoy.

cheers,

AJ

**jdandy** · July 5, 2019, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

My point is very simple.

We'd like to introduce you to our new a set of system cables!

After years of tireless research, we proudly present the "AudioFantasy Pyramids" (tm) which are now in production phase! .............

Thank you and we at AudioFantasy look forward to taking YOUR system to new heights!

Serge.......Extremely creative writing. I am still chuckling.

**Mike** · July 5, 2019, 09:18 AM

No other topic will catch the ire of people like the topic of cables. We get inundated with new cable brands/makers at all the shows. Attending Munich and you will see a dizzying array of never heard of, likely never to be seen again, cable manufacturers.

But like AJ said, pseudo-science and marketing hype can be applied to so many other areas of life. Have you read the back of a Axe shampoo bottle lately? Anyone still wearing magnetic wristbands?

Cables aren’t a topic I talk about very much for this very reason. Cables are personal. Some folks firmly believe, as do I, that great cables are paramount to building a great system. Others are fine with Home Depot Outdoor Lighting cable and the $5 USB Printer cable.

I spent a long time zeroing in on the cables I wanted to carry and represent. Some may agree or disagree with them, but I listened and observed in every case. Not every cable brand I auditioned made it into the store. There are many I just don’t like. Too bright, too strident, poor build quality, too whored out, bad representation, take your pick.

I personally don’t spend much time reading about the description of a cable. I just listen. That should always be your guide IMO.

I had a gentleman in the store the other day. He swore his $5 Printer USB cable sounded just as good as anything in the store. We compared it to a few. Suffice it to say, he admitted he was wrong and left grumbling, “but it’s just one’s and zero’s!” He will be back.

**Gene** · July 5, 2019, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

No other topic will catch the ire of people like the topic of cables. We get inundated with new cable brands/makers at all the shows. Attending Munich and you will see a dizzying array of never heard of, likely never to be seen again, cable manufacturers.

But like AJ said, pseudo-science and marketing hype can be applied to so many other areas of life. Have you read the back of a Axe shampoo bottle lately? Anyone still wearing magnetic wristbands?

Cables aren’t a topic I talk about very much for this very reason. Cables are personal. Some folks firmly believe, as do I, that great cables are paramount to building a great system. Others are fine with Home Depot Outdoor Lighting cable and the $5 USB Printer cable.

I spent a long time zeroing in on the cables I wanted to carry and represent. Some may agree or disagree with them, but I listened and observed in every case. Not every cable brand I auditioned made it into the store. There are many I just don’t like. Too bright, too strident, poor build quality, too whored out, bad representation, take your pick.

I personally don’t spend much time reading about the description of a cable. I just listen. That should always be your guide IMO.

I had a gentleman in the store the other day. He swore his $5 Printer USB cable sounded just as good as anything in the store. We compared it to a few. Suffice it to say, he admitted he was wrong and left grumbling, “but it’s just one’s and zero’s!” He will be back.

This is a mantra for all audiophiles to live by. Regardless of the audio-speak and the pseudo scientific bable dreamed up in the advertising dept. of our favorite cable company, It's always going to be your ear that has the final say and is the definitive arbiter of whether or not a cable is worth the cost.

**TheOctopus** · July 5, 2019, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Sure, people hear Santa at Christmas, dead relatives, feel more stable with those balance bracelets, etc, etc.
There is no limit there. The problem is that there are no subjectivists (despite the claim) in high end audio.
Only folks who need objective/pseudo-science nonsense metrics to prop up their subjective choices like crutches.
All would be fine if a $100k nano-particle quantum entanglement solid gold diamond infused wall outlet made someone happier because it sounded, subjectively, better to them. But that is never the case. It's always purely objective metrics - price, materials, construction, etc. that are posited as for why it really does "sound" better. Needless to say, this applies to everything beyond audio as well. It's human nature.
Might as well just enjoy.

cheers,

AJ

Great post AJ. We are clearly on the same page.

Disclaimer, I am not a cable denier by any means. I’ve evaluated, borrowed, bought, sold, traded at least a few dozen of the better known cables and have spent as much as a lower end automobile in some instances while being involved with high end audio for 30 years. Are cables my priority these days? No. Do they make a difference? My ears told me they did. Was that part of the psychoacoustic effect? I have no idea to be honest. I’ve tried A/B blind listening approach with the help of other audiophile friends. There were instances we picked the right cable without knowing but for the most part we were also wrong about 50% of the time. By law of averages, that indicates... well you know what that indicates.

At the end of the day, the money spent on audio cables/accessories/tweaks and the effect on the system whether perceived or real is the choice each one of us makes in the never ending quest of better system performance. I’ve personally stopped chasing cables and tweaks after 30 years but I’m not using a lamp cord either.

Of course the point of my post was not whether cables make a difference, some claim they do, some claim they don’t. We can not measure nor assess them any other way but objectively with our ears and everyone hears different, not to mention the fact the hearing acuity drops as part of the normal aging process. I’m in my 50’s and I can only hear just barely to 15Khz. It will only get worse with age which is perfectly normal. People have severe notches in their hearing, by as much as 40 or more dB! Could I claim that I can evaluate some cable accurately and say the upper end response of this cable is smoother and sweeter? Subjectively, no, I cannot since I can’t even hear the last 5Khz... Objectively I can say I like this cable more and I would not be wrong since that is my own perception.

It all would be logical and understood as part of the hobby but some of the claims that are based on a sprinkle of scientific facts and topped with a heavy dose of pseudo-science in order to market is the part that drives me crazy. So either the manufacturers that could never prove their claims with any known or proven scientific methods really believe their own BS or the reasoning behind it is much more sinister. I’m thinking there are clearly both camps... Either scenario just rubs me the wrong way so I personally steer clear of any brand that relies on pseudo-scientific approach of marketing.

**TheOctopus** · July 5, 2019, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by jdandy

Serge.......Extremely creative writing. I am still chuckling.

Thanks Dan. I am glad my attempt at a humorous post about a fictitious cable company was met with a chuckle.

What is actually NOT funny is that I injected a bit of "actual" claims that I came across in some of the marketing campaigns of actual audio cable manufacturers.... The part about the receptacle and negative ion generation is actually a video that is available straight from the manufacturer as well. Brilliant stuff...

**Oly** · July 5, 2019, 01:47 PM

My approach has been to stick with companies I can trust, for example Shunyata. Their products stand for themselves with no need for marketing gimmicks.

Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

**AJ Soundfield** · July 5, 2019, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Of course the point of my post was not whether cables make a difference, some claim they do, some claim they don’t.

Anyone that says all amps, cables, widgets, etc, etc do make a difference and anyone that says all amps, cables, widgets, etc, etc make no difference....is an idiot.
Ignore them and move on.

cheers,

AJ

**TheOctopus** · July 5, 2019, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Oly

My approach has been to stick with companies I can trust, for example Shunyata. Their products stand for themselves with no need for marketing gimmicks.

Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

I have perused some of their technical videos. Let's just say my "degree in electronics" is certainly not worthy of understanding how a "magnetic wave" can be split from "electric wave" and sent down a cable separately. Kudos to them for such groundbreaking technology.
"

**TheOctopus** · July 5, 2019, 02:23 PM

Anyone that understands how an Electromagnetic Field Propagates knows that a they are a never ending cycle of cause and effect, another words interdependent. To separate the electric field from the magnetic field not only defies the whole concept but underlines that it is complete nonsense but as I already mentioned, my understanding of these principles pales by comparison to the great minds of the audio land. Applying for a patent which is often thrown around as a testimony to the concept of any technology actually working is not the same thing as being granted a patent. Anyone can apply for a patent, few are granted. To throw a magnetic lasso around the moon and tow it further into space to compensate for the flooding effects of the climate change in coastal areas can also be filed under a patent and I am seriously working on such technology as we speak and getting ready to apply for a patent. It costs between $65 and $265 to file for a patent to be able to say it out loud but imagine the profits that can be made in the mean time... I am looking for investors into my lunar magnetic lasso technology.

**UltraFast69** · July 5, 2019, 11:06 PM

Honestly, I get lost when the word Science is used as a stand-alone term in Audio, it makes me think of butane torches, test tubes and people in lab coats with protective eye wear, to me defining how Audio is studied or applied is more in line with electrical engineering or similar.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

**aKnyght** · July 6, 2019, 06:58 AM

i schiit you not... description of schiit pyst usb cables from their website: https://www.schiit.com/products/pyst-cables

Beyond Just Technology: SuperUltraHyperTechnology
PYST cables are made from only the finest 6-nines Unobtanium™ alloy, molecularly assembled in our Alternate Universe™ reality-distortion tesseract field , using a secret geometry reverse-engineered from crashed UFOs, painstakingly smuggled out of Area 51 by deep-cover operatives. Performance is further enhanced by the use of a QuantConnect™ quantum-entangled pair of transmission interfaces, held at absolute zero by our exclusive Stasis Field™ technology. The cables are then wrapped in NanoAeroCap™, a nanotechnology-enabled aerogel anti-capacitance insulation system, featuring Fractal Interleaved Geometry™ to create negative inductance for maximum audio transmission quality.

Or, er, well . . . again, no. These are nice, high-quality cables, with solid, reliable connectors. That’s it. Hope you like them!

USB PYST. This is the complete redefinition of USB cables. It actually, physically transports you* into an alternate universe where superbly-mastered, 24/192 music streams 24/7, free of charge to all listeners, for all genres. Supermodels in this alternate world are all deeply into high-end audio, and will beg to go out with you. Butterflies swirl in fantastic colors over clean-lined porcelain cityscapes, everyone is a millionaire, and flying cars run on air. It's a beautiful place to be!

*Or not. It may have been a hallucination. USB PYSTs are actually just nice, 1M long, USB 2.0-rated cables that have thicker than normal power conductors and silver-plated copper data lines. We think the electrons like silver better, or something. Or not.

In any case, you can get PYST, or you can save some money at Monoprice.

**AJ Soundfield** · July 6, 2019, 07:05 AM

Ha, that's some funny Schiit.

Life's short, enjoy it.

**aKnyght** · July 6, 2019, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

...Life's short, enjoy it.

"Supermodels in this alternate world are all deeply into high-end audio, and will beg to go out with you."

for $20 bucks, worth a try... right?

**TheOctopus** · July 6, 2019, 12:00 PM

That’s why I have respect for Schiit. No nonsense approach to audio. Their products are a fantastic value and I still think one would be hard pressed to find anything that even remotely comes close to performance in their respective price ranges.

**TheOctopus** · July 17, 2019, 12:41 PM

So What Is Quantum Purification?
Within any playback system, musical and visual information is transmitted by electrons flowing through conductors. As electrons interact with the conductive materials of cables and circuits, very low-level (quantum) noises are generated. This noise is referred to as 1/f noise. It is indestinquisable to the human ear, however it's effects are profound. When quantum noise energy accumulates in the propagating signal, low-level details pertaining to ambience, soundstage, timbre, dynamics, color fidelity and picture resolution are obscured, robbing the presentation of vividness and life.

Bybee Quantum Purifiers operate on the quantum mechanical level to regulate the flow of electrons that make up the signal. Current flow within the Quantum Purifier is unimpeded and ideal. During transit through the Quantum Purifier, quantum noise energy is stripped off the electrons, streamlining their flow through ensuing conductors. Unwanted quantum noise energy dissipates as heat within the Quantum Purifier rather than emerging as a layer of contamination residue over the audio/video information.

The benefits of this process extends beyond the physical length of the Quantum Purifier. As electrons speed through the purifier, a “slipstream” effect is formed which facilitates current flow in the surrounding conductors of the playback system. Introducing Bybee Quantum Purification into the electron path reduces quantum noise and increases signal velocity, resulting in performance improvement beyond what is attainable by any cable alone, no matter how well designed.

Allllrighty then....

**AVphile** · July 19, 2019, 06:27 PM

Wow! I used Google Search to learn what year Mr. Bybee received the Nobel prize for physics. His discovery of the means to reverse the polarity of electrons and protons would enable the creation of all sorts of new materials and -- who knows -- maybe even "anti-matter" itself! For the life of me, I cannot fathom why he has limited the application of his extraordinary technology breakthrough solely to aftermarket audio components.

**TheOctopus** · July 19, 2019, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by AVphile

Wow! I used Google Search to learn what year Mr. Bybee received the Nobel prize for physics. His discovery of the means to reverse the polarity of electrons and protons would enable the creation of all sorts of new materials and -- who knows -- maybe even "anti-matter" itself! For the life of me, I cannot fathom why he has limited the application of his extraordinary technology breakthrough solely to aftermarket audio components.

The other fields must not be nearly as profitable.

**ahofer** · July 20, 2019, 01:53 PM

Try Teo Audio...

The physics of Teo Audio cables is different than all other audio cables. Fundamentally so. This is critical, as aspects go. It is not marketing hype to say that the transmission of signal in the Teo Audio cables is fundamentally different and more correct than all others.
Only Teo Audio cables present the signal with a transmission environment that is proper for the signal.
Signal is an ionic plasma, an electron charge, in balance offset, which is what propels it, or drives it.
A plasma is different than a solidus elemental lattice structure, which is what ‘wire’ is. A solidus frozen elemental lattice, this ‘wire’, is only capable of handling one aspect of signal transmission, the transverse wave function, as it is called in electrical physics terms.
The liquid metal in the Teo Audio cables, is liquid at the atomic level. Down to the molecular level. (No gross particle infused design of fluid cable can do its correctly) This means that there is a freedom in flow and organization of the fluid, in the most correct way. That each electron orbital transfer point, from one atomic structure to another, is free to enter into a state of complex rotation, as the electron moves into bridging the gap and transferring from one atomic structure to the next.
This condition of flow, or electron transfer in the fluid metal alloy, allows for the second aspect of gas, plasma, and fluid systems to arise, which is the ‘longitudinal wave’ of electromagnetic theory and analysis.
Due to this the fluid and the signal, for the first time, can act and flow, in some critical ways, as one.
Some of the fundamental and inescapable distortion components that are in wire based signal transfer systems drop away and cease to exist, when the signal is transported in a fluid medium. This is why the Teo Audio cables have such huge bandwidth, into the gigahertz range.
It is the solid lattice structure of wire, as a system of electrical transfer that gives rise to the limits of dynamic correctness, and a multitude of complex distortions when the wire is asked to deal with complex harmonic signals that go from near DC, through the skin effect region, and into the higher frequencies.
Eliminating these very source of these fundamental distortions, is what gives the Teo Audio cables their incredible dynamic clarity and fundamental rich harmonic body of sound. Teo Audio cables are, in all ways, the only known fundamentally correct method of achieving signal transfer in audio systems.

Show this to the nearest physicist or electrical engineer. Just make sure he isn't in the middle of drinking hot coffee.

I'm a Bayesian. The preponderance of the evidence suggests that our perceptions of audio equipment involve much more than strictly audible phenomena, so I proceed from that starting point. That doesn't mean "watts are watts", "wire is wire", "only amplitude and frequency count" conclusively, but it means you should probably start there as the null hypothesis and attempt to disprove it, rather than start from the point of view that heavily rationalized, or (pseudo-)science supported *subjective impressions* are dispositive.

Just because it isn't strictly audible doesn't mean it is not meaningful. In the end, you will be listening in your room. In my view, the search process should be simulating that and trying hard to imagine how happy, for how long, "future you" will be with the purchase you are evaluating. Be mindful that we are mostly poor judges of "future you", but take home what you think will make you happy.

**TheOctopus** · July 20, 2019, 02:38 PM

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) was established under President Woodrow Wilson in 1914 to protect consumers against trusts via the elimination and prevention of anticompetitive business practices, such as coercive monopolies. Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act, 15 U.S.C. § 45 grants the FTC power to investigate and prevent deceptive trade practices. According to their own commission, federal law states that an “ad must be truthful, not misleading, and, when appropriate, backed by scientific evidence”.

On May 3, 1974, the FTC instituted its Amplifier Rule to combat the unrealistic power claims made by many hi-fi amplifier manufacturers. "Unrealistic" meaning manufacturers specifying power solely as peak, dynamic of summed two or more channels would not be tolerated. This rule prescribes continuous power measurements performed with sine wave signals for advertising and specifications of amplifiers sold in the US. This rule was later amended in 1998 to cover self-powered speakers such as those commonly used with personal computers or portable devices.

Since then I am not sure what happened but perhaps someday when they are less busy... who knows?

Thread: On the topic of pseudo-science and high end audio

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