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  1. #1
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    Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    https://twitteringmachines.com/compu...has-killed-it/

    For the record, I don’t agree that streaming sounds as good as CD/SACD or even rips/downloads, and I have gone to great lengths and continue to go to great lengths to optimize my network.

    My personal ranking is:

    CD/SACD from a great Transport to the same DAC - 10/10
    CD/SACD rip or high res download - 9/10
    High res streaming on Qobuz or Tidal - 8/10
    Redbook streaming with Qobuz - 7.5/10
    Redbook Streaming with Tidal - 7/10
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  2. #2

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    https://twitteringmachines.com/compu...has-killed-it/

    For the record, I don’t agree that streaming sounds as good as CD/SACD or even rips/downloads, and I have gone to great lengths and continue to go to great lengths to optimize my network.

    My personal ranking is:

    CD/SACD from a great Transport to the same DAC - 10/10
    CD/SACD rip or high res download - 9/10
    High res streaming on Qobuz or Tidal - 8/10
    Redbook streaming with Qobuz - 7.5/10
    Redbook Streaming with Tidal - 7/10
    So, are you saying physical media still wins ? In terms of pure audio quality? In your personal experience ?

    Btw, I agree with the article and streaming has more of path forward road map compared to computer audio (local storage).

    Think of what Roon could do if they offer a cloud option? This has to be in their roadmap.

    For most people a simple streamer product like a Lumin is going to be the path forward.

    Plug and Play.

  3. #3
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    So, are you saying physical media still wins ? In terms of pure audio quality? In your personal experience ?

    Btw, I agree with the article and streaming has more of path forward road map the computer audio (local storage).

    Think of what Roon could do if they offer a cloud option? This has to be in their roadmap.

    For most people a simple streamer product like a Lumin is going to be the path forward.

    Plug and Play.
    Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

    Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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  4. #4

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

    Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
    Wow. Then myself and probably I think the two other people here that still spin CDs agree with you :-)

  5. #5

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

    Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
    I do agree Mike. CD is superior to streaming. CD is a well developed stabile media platform that has been around for a long time. Computers are not optimized for audio. Streamers are more ideal but they do share similar issues. Another thing is different formats (No loss, DSD, MQA, you name it). That being said streaming has been heavily improved compared to what it was just a few years ago. Streaming providers have stepped up and manufactures have stepped up. Who knows.. Maybe CD's won't be a thing in 15 years, but as it is for now streaming still has a long way to go.
    Scansonic MB-1, Aavik U-300, Sony CD Player as transport, mixture of ansuz cables in different qualities, Ansuz Mainz X Power Distribution, Ansuz Power Distribution for DTC cables

  6. #6

    Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    I cannot tell a difference between physical CDs, or playing the same ripped CDs from a computer, or Tidal.

    But... I do prefer SACDs to all of those above.

    Now... if I take my ripped CDs or Tidal streams and upsample and convert them to DSD512... Then I like those better than anything else (including SACD which is basically DSD64).

    So I no longer care about buying physical CDs or SACDs (or MQA for that matter). The upsampled, converted DSD512 versions sound better to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmiLiuZ View Post
    ...
    Maybe CD's won't be a thing in 15 years, but as it is for now streaming still has a long way to go.
    In my opinion, CDs are already dead. Streaming won.

  7. #7
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Agree 100% Mike. And I have done many many tests.
    Caelin Gabriel
    President
    Shunyata Research

    http://shunyata.com

  8. #8

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

    Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
    Quote from Rick Fryer of Spectral back in 2016

    Why a CD player, you may wonder, in the age of Tidal, Pono, and the "Cloud"?
    "Just as vinyl and turntables are supposed to be antique and obsolete, we know they are not," Fryer explained during his two-hour presentation. "If you know what is considered obsolete in digital—which is the compact disc—you have the option to rip it or download it. But I submit that this is the ultimate form in how you play a 44.1 recording. If you want to hear the best possible performance from a musical medium you go to its native format and [for digital] recordings that is compact disc and 44.1. We can show you why playing [compact discs] in a physical player and the physical medium will outperform any file or download."

    Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/...KasIm8XiOkB.99
    fa

    Fast forward 3 years later and that still holds true.

  9. #9

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    I think playing a physical disc is going to continue to be superior to streaming as long as all the steps required to optimize streaming are still being developed and refined.
    Anthony
    Analog: VPI Clearaudio Innovation Wood/Kuzma 4Point/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->

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    ...........Cary 306 SACD Professional Disc Player---->

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    [Synergistic Research/Nordost/Wireworld/Furutech/SRA/Adona/Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]

  10. #10

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    Quote from Rick Fryer of Spectral back in 2016

    ...
    But I submit that this is the ultimate form in how you play a 44.1 recording. If you want to hear the best possible performance from a musical medium you go to its native format and [for digital] recordings that is compact disc and 44.1. We can show you why playing [compact discs] in a physical player and the physical medium will outperform any file...
    Audio recording and mastering engineers will normally do a master digital recording at a higher sampling rate than 44.1 (i.e. 88.2, 96, 176.4 or 192 kHz) and then they do any editing or mixing at that same higher frequency. Then the file is downsampled to meet the CD requirement of 44.1 khz. So the native format of most digitally recorded music is NOT what is contained in the CDs.

  11. #11
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Honestly, with my current digital streaming set-up, Qobuz hi-res, I can't tell the difference between streaming and spinning CD's any longer. The one and only physical media I can still hear the difference, far better, is vinyl.
    Focal Sopra 2, MC452, C2300, MCD1100, MT2 w/Hana SL, HRS, Bel Canto Stream, Schiit Yggy, AQ Niagara 5000 w/Hurricanes, WW Silver 7’s.

  12. #12

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    For the record, I don’t agree that streaming sounds as good as CD/SACD or even rips/downloads, and I have gone to great lengths and continue to go to great lengths to optimize my network.

    My personal ranking is:

    CD/SACD from a great Transport to the same DAC - 10/10
    CD/SACD rip or high res download - 9/10
    High res streaming on Qobuz or Tidal - 8/10
    Redbook streaming with Qobuz - 7.5/10
    Redbook Streaming with Tidal - 7/10
    Great to hear given that you have explored the issue thoroughly, and doesn't surprise me from my experience, which admittedly is more limited.

    Per the article maybe it's good that I skipped the complicated "Computer Audio" stuff. If I want more music than the CDs I have, I can always stream. But I do that anyway, just not on my hi-fi. I listen to YouTube on a $30 headphone from my computer.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  13. #13
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    Wow. Then myself and probably I think the two other people here that still spin CDs agree with you :-)
    Make that "three other people". I absolutely agree with Mike and mdp632 that spinning media still rules over the other options in our system (at least in our travels) after trying a variety of options.
    Front End: MSB Select II DAC, MSB Reference Transport, Magnum Dynalab MD107T, Aiwa AD-F990
    Amplification: Dan D'Agostino Momentum HD Preamplifier & Momentum M400 MxV Monoblocks, Crown XLS 2502 (x3) (subwoofers)
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    Power: GigaWatt PC-4 EVO+, GigaWatt LS-2HCEVO, Jungson Pure Power, JPS Labs AC+, Transparent HPPC
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  14. #14
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Jim
    ________________________________________________

    Living Room: SOTA Saphhire, Origin Live Encounter arm, Ortofon 2M Black, Graham Slee phono stage, McIntosh MR77, Oppo BDP-83, Windows 10 laptop-->TEAC UD-501-->Conrad-Johnson Sonographe SC25--> c-jMF2500-->Paradigm SE-3, Shunyata Hydra 8 v2, GIK acoustic panels.

    Home Office: Windows 10 laptop-->TEAC UD-501-->Luminous Audio Axiom II passive-->c-j Sonographe SA250-->Paradigm SE-1, Shunyata Hydra.

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  15. #15
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    CDs might sound better than streaming, but certainly not better than if ripped and played through a decent file player (not a computer). Just the elimination of CD induced jitter is enough. Plus there is no way a CD can sound better than a High-Res download that was mastered right from the start as High-Res. A CD maxes out at 44/16 and is at the entrance of good sound, with High-Res downloads higher up the audio ladder.
    Bud

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  16. #16

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    My own personal opinion and I know I’ll get some heat this one..

    But , I don’t think the problem was ever with the compact disc physical media itself.

    It just took 30 plus years for the playback equipment technology to mature.

    Plus less variables with physical media mean less chance for distortion.

    So , we’ve spent countless time and effort to remove distortion from our systems to only ruin it with computer networks , usb

    That’s my take on it.

    So, Mike are you getting or do you have already have the msb ref transport ?

  17. #17

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    My own personal opinion and I know I’ll get some heat this one..

    But , I don’t think the problem was ever with the compact disc physical media itself.

    It just took 30 plus years for the playback equipment technology to mature.

    Plus less variables with physical media mean less chance for distortion.

    So , we’ve spent countless time and effort to remove distortion from our systems to only ruin it with computer networks , usb

    That’s my take on it.

    So, Mike are you getting or do you have already have the msb ref transport ?
    I guess I'll get some heat on this one too -- for agreeing with you!
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  18. #18

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    CDs might sound better than streaming, but certainly not better than if ripped and played through a decent file player (not a computer). Just the elimination of CD induced jitter is enough.
    The old jitter argument. Theoretically, yes. Practically, it's more complicated since computers/ file players introduce electronic noise. And perhaps that is just one of the problems.

    The argument that computer audio is better because it eliminates jitter reminds me of "Perfect Sound Forever". Remember that one? CD was supposed to be better than LP on technical grounds. But it took more than 30 years to get to something starting to resemble "Perfect Sound Forever" (not saying that we're there yet). There were all kinds of practical implementation issues that soiled the theoretical perfection of CD for a long time. Similar situation with the theoretical perfection of computer audio.
    Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave

  19. #19
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

    Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
    Mike.......Same conclusion with my systems. I have made direct comparisons with CD's to playback from multiple music servers, as well as with both Tidal and Qobuz streaming. I concur with your results. It is all good but when I want to hear the absolute best my systems can deliver I spin discs.
    Dan

    STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital coax,
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  20. #20
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    I disagree with Mike's order and rating but at this point for me any differences aren't worth even two minutes of comparison and evaluation.

    The bottom line is physical media and downloads may not be dead but they will soon become a quaint reminders of phases in this hobby. Just who do you think is going to stock and sell physical media? It is easy to look back at CD titles previously sold by Amazon that are now only available as downloads. Do you really think that records labels will continue to maintain manufacturing capacity when CD sales dropped under $1 billion for the first time since 1986. It is much cheaper for these companies to provide data for streaming. Per the RIAA: “Revenues from streaming music platforms grew 30% year-over-year to reach $7.4 billion, contributing 75% of total revenues for 2018, and accounting for virtually all the revenue growth for the year.”

    In the near future CD's will take its place along side vinyl was as a niche market for those willing (or enjoying) all of the associated issues with that media for whatever perceived sonic benefits they seek. I am sure there are those that cannot find replacements for the 78 shellacs.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
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  21. #21
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    I spin all my discs one time for the most part, to rip them to my computer/music server. I have directly compared the SACD rip to spinning the SACD and the rip sounds better in my view. Granted I only have a Oppo BDP-105 so I know there are better spinners out there that may sound better.

    However I do believe that locally stored files are better than those streamed across my network from a NAS, or certainly then anything streamed from the "cloud" (I hate that term by the way, it just means your data or files are stored on someone else's computer which could be anywhere in the world). There are too many points in a network that can interfere getting the signal to the DAC... that is my view, and I'm sticking with it .

    High resolution downloads are my favorites... and yes SACDs do sound wonderful, but the rips are better in my view and several of our audio club members who have came over and compared. If I had a mega daddy warbucks spinner maybe the spinner would sound better ...

    I am also planning on comparing Roon playback straight without HQPlayer versus going through HQPlayer. Jussi has frustrated me from HQPlayer. I purchased HQPlayer a little over a year ago and like it, and have recommended it. However he recently came out with version 4. I asked him what is improved with version 4 and how can a licensed version 3 user get 4.

    First and foremost as appears to always be the case, his reply is very hard to decipher. Similar to many other programmers I have worked with. Many on teams I have worked on I would insist on locking them in the back room and not allow them to talk to other departments . He would definitely be locked in the back, back room.

    He just directed me to a feature list and did not in any way shape or form talk about what has been improved/changed and why I should consider version 4. And then he said that version 3 users get a small discount on 4. Then I noticed that he raised the price to $250 so an upgrade will be over $200 when a full version of 3 was $160. he also stated that each version will have to be re-purchased going forward.

    HQPlayer is not the most user friendly software and making changes is quite a pain and hard to compare because of how it works, therefore if it is not night and day better the price may not make much sense going forward.

    So I have decided to compare the most updated Roon (I have heard it has improved) versus using HQPlayer as the playback engine. We will see how it all plays out. I am also going to play around a bit with not up-sampling and seeing if I enjoy playing the files straight is enjoyable to up-sampling.

    I am also excited about some of my favorite high resolutions albums coming out in higher resolutions... check out Vanessa Fernandez albums on Native DSD... her new one in DSD512, her other albums in DSD256!!!
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  22. #22
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    The trend I see is integration. Plex, Bubble, and most streamers now integrate Tidal & Qobuz into their server and control apps. I find I will queue local and streamed files into my playlist on a given evening. If I find a great recording on Qobuz or Tidal, I'll often buy a copy. These services aren't making a ton of money and could go away at any time.

    Annoyingly, both services have different gaps in classical and jazz, so I can't narrow it to one. I ditched Spotify, and I haven't picked up the new classical-dedicated Hi-Res service, Primephonic. Seems still sketchy.

    I have all sorts of old recordings that never seem to have made it to streaming services, so I suspect I will always have my ripped local library. Internet streaming was inferior to local on my old streamer/DAC, but I don't find that to be the case with the new one (Cambridge Audio 851N --> Cambridge Edge NQ), I couldn't tell you why.

  23. #23

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Agree with Mike. CDs definitely sounded better than my Sooloos no doubt. Even my kids could hear the difference. Only problem is no way in hell am i finding space to put 8000 cds in my house. Also picking a cd (which is not an experience like spinning a record) is now like watching TV without cable to me. I guess i got too used to being able to jump albums.

  24. #24

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    https://twitteringmachines.com/compu...has-killed-it/

    For the record, I don’t agree that streaming sounds as good as CD/SACD or even rips/downloads, and I have gone to great lengths and continue to go to great lengths to optimize my network.

    My personal ranking is:

    CD/SACD from a great Transport to the same DAC - 10/10
    CD/SACD rip or high res download - 9/10
    High res streaming on Qobuz or Tidal - 8/10
    Redbook streaming with Qobuz - 7.5/10
    Redbook Streaming with Tidal - 7/10
    Can definitely agree with Mike that a top notch mechanical CD Transport feeding a top notch DAC is better than rips or downloads feeding the same top notch DAC. They’re close, but the difference provided by the transport is palpable, especially as the system’s noise floor is reduced.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Rockport Lyra speakers; TotalDac Amp-1 mono blocks; four box CH Precision L1/X1 pre/power supply monos; CH precision P1/X1 phono/power supply; TotalDac d1-driver monos; Pacific Microsonics Model 2 DAC; TotalDac d1-12 MkII DAC with two reclockers; Kodo The Beat Turnatable with LT Schroder magnesium tonearm and Lyra Atlas cart; Taiko Extreme server; Kalista Dreamplayer CD Transport; Taiko Audio Daiza Platforms; Nordost Odin2 Power Cords and Analog ICs; 512 Engineering/Tim Marutani Balanced Transformers (30 amp for sources; 50 amp for amps); Rives designed dedicated room.

  25. #25
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    Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    I agree as well, the nudge goes to physical media, but in my case I would knock a point off OP Mikes numbers bringing things a tad closer.

    It takes a lot of work to get your network squared to support streaming as well as NAS playback - if this is not done, your numbers may differ greatly with OP Mike and my comment.

    All formats will exist well past our lifetime, and components to support them will as well.

    Despite physical media taking a modest gain, when I sit down to listen to music, I have greater enjoyment with the ability to bounce around tracks and this is where the tablet surpasses the nudge - ease of operation and I’m in shape running 650 calorie 5Ks.

    Gentlemen, It’s a great time!



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  26. #26

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    My experience is that considerations about format or physical media or networking are all buried by the original quality of the recording/mastering

    That being said, it seems to be that networked audio has a bright future with continuing advancements in network switches, servers, and knowledge about how to configure everything optimally. I wouldn’t be surprised if networked audio surpasses the best cd transport in the near future.
    Source: Taiko Audio Server, Cisco 2960 Switch, Gigafoil, Lampizator Pacific Dac. Amp: Bakoon 13r Speakers: AvantGarde Duo Mezzo XD, Cables: Alan Maher Designs Power, Duelund Speaker, Shunyata Sigma IC's Audioquest Diamond ethernet. Room Treatment Vicoustic.

  27. #27

    Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Willco View Post
    My experience is that considerations about format or physical media or networking are all buried by the original quality of the recording/mastering

    That being said, it seems to be that networked audio has a bright future with continuing advancements in network switches, servers, and knowledge about how to configure everything optimally. I wouldn’t be surprised if networked audio surpasses the best cd transport in the near future.
    Without a doubt “the original quality of the recording/mastering” is paramount.

    But the point that several of us have made in this thread about a quality CD transport being superior to a CD rip or streaming is based on comparing the same recording/mastering version on all three options as well as the same downstream system. That way the variation on the recording/mastering (as well as thebdoenstresm system) is removed and it’s only the playback method response that is being compared.


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  28. #28
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    I think it's more advantageous now that we have streaming services. We won't have to worry about adding more storage just to compile our playlist, right?

  29. #29
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.
    Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.

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  30. #30

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Check out one of Paul McGowan's latest videos about CD Players still being relevant. Its ok for the first few minutes ; until he goes into plugging his book so, you've been warned

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMGs5aVGsJA

    He has mentioned in the past that one of the reasons they (PS Audio) haven't released their "Octave" Networking music player is that they can't get it to sound anywhere near as good the DMP/CD transport.

    I also believe PS Audio is releasing a rebook only successor to the DMP (Directstream Memory Player ) soon.

    Many great and upcoming options to spin and enjoy the compact disc.

  31. #31
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    Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    It would seem to me, a good way to go is to add a nice transport to your audio setup. Bryston, PS Audio, SimAudio, NAIM, etc. all make reasonably priced transports. Then, when you buy that new CD or play a favorite old one, you can enjoy it at the highest level. First look at your DAC manufacturer to see if they offer a compatible transport that may even get you SACD.

    If you can’t get one with SACD, not to worry, ripping is easy. If you have the right Blu-Ray player, you’re up and ripping in 15 minutes or less and all the software is free (thank you Sonore!). I’m plowing through a stack of my SACD’s now with my Oppo 105-D. The latest 2x Oppo’s won’t work, however, there are many $25 on eBay Blu-Ray players that will.

    If you don’t have a digital input, I guess you could look at a network capable transport, although, none come to mind at the moment.

    Something like this would look awfully nice in the rack:



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  32. #32
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If you have the right Blu-Ray player, you’re up and ripping in 15 minutes or less and all the software is free (thank you Sonore!).

    If you can’t get one with SACD, not to worry, ripping is easy.
    Unfortunately, this is the key. The right players are no longer sold, and there were only a couple models that could work in the first place. You happen to have one (so do I).... Sony was not very happy when Oppo made these machines. (I know there were a couple random models by other manufactures but I never heard of anyone using one to rip with.)

    It does work but it is important to create the correct USB key to boot the machine off. I also find that sometimes I have to re-find my spinner on the network from the Sonore software. But to me it is worth it to put every new SACD I buy on to my server.

    Your second quote cracks me up Mike. Ahhhh, to rip you would need a machine with SACD capability... the only ones that can rip can also play SACDs ....

    Not sure I would consider a $12,000 spinner as reasonably priced .... Another good machine, in my view are the Marantz spinners... I thought the Marantz I had sounded slightly better than my Oppo (for $100 less).... but the Oppo had that one other function that means it will always remain in my system...
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  33. #33
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    Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Unfortunately, this is the key. The right players are no longer sold, and there were only a couple models that could work in the first place. You happen to have one (so do I).... Sony was not very happy when Oppo made these machines. (I know there were a couple random models by other manufactures but i never heard of anyone using one to rip with.)

    It does work but it is important to create the correct USB key to boot the machine off. I also find that sometimes I have to re-find my spinner on the network from the Sonore software. But to me it is worth it to put every new SACD I buy on to my server.

    Your second quote cracks me up Mike. Ahhhh, to rip you would need a machine with SACD capability... the only ones that can rip can also play SACDs ....
    Below is a list of reported working/compatible with SACD ripping brands and models, hopefully there will be additional discoveries and this list can someday be revised once again, just like it was in both February 2018, and again in February 2019 with the addition of various Sony units listed below.

    Sony brand compatible Blu-ray players:
    BDP-S390 (also sold as BX39 in some markets)
    BDP-S490
    BDP-S590 (also sold as BX59 in some markets)
    BDP-S4100
    BDP-S5100 (also sold as BX510 in some markets)
    BDP-S6200 * (also sold as BX620 in some markets, requires Sony ARMv7 AutoScript version developed Feb. 2019)
    BDP-S7200 * (requires Sony ARMv7 AutoScript version developed Feb. 2019)
    BDP-S790 * (requires Sony ARMv7 AutoScript version developed Feb. 2019)

    Pioneer brand compatible Blu-ray players:
    BDP-80FD
    BDP-160
    BDP-170

    Oppo brand compatible Blu-ray players:
    BDP-103 and 103D
    BDP-105 and 105D

    Cambridge brand compatible Blu-ray players:
    Azur 752BD
    CXU

    Arcam brand compatible Blu-ray & CD/SACD players:
    FMJ UDP411
    FMJ CDS27

    Primare brand compatible Blu-ray player:
    BD32 MkII

    Electrocompaniet brand compatible Blu-ray player:
    EMP3

    Link: https://hifihaven.org/index.php?thre...y-player.3652/

    A brand new ripping player has been found, the Sony BDP-S590.

    Full list here:

    https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/t...comment-940992

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  34. #34
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Randy / Mike

    I’m aware of SACD ripping but never looked into it and agree getting this onto a server makes things easier and if the SACD quality is there a no brainer.

    Are you saying specific Blue Ray players can be connected to a computer and with software can copy a SACD onto its drive?


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  35. #35
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    Randy / Mike

    I’m aware of SACD ripping but never looked into it and agree getting this onto a server makes things easier and if the SACD quality is there a no brainer.

    Are you saying specific Blue Ray players can be connected to a computer and with software can copy a SACD onto its drive?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Yes. Easy as pie. And free. Just need the right blu-Ray player - list above. With an Oppo 103/105 it’s a snap.


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  36. #36
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Yes, the rip is identical to the SACD playback. Some people in our audio club believe it is better because unless you have one of the certain spinner/DAC combos (McIntosh, Esoteric, PS Audio, etc.) then from your server you can use your dedicated DAC which is usually much better than the one in your spinner, or at least on the level of gear that I play in. Also, a huge plus is I can then run it through HQPlayer and up-sample the rip to DSD512/48!!!

    I knew about the Pioneer and Cambridge. I also thought there was one Onkyo machine.

    I was not aware that Sony had machines that would work! I knew the original PS3, but if it was ever "updated" then it no longer could.

    I know it has something to do with a chip on the motherboard; not 100% sure so don't quote me... and the USB key booting sets the machine up to be able to pull the files off the SACD. The Sonore package that I have can create this USB key to boot the machine. I have a dedicated key that I reserve to boot the Oppo from whenever I get a new SACD.

    Then your computer running the Sonore software can access the machine across the network and rip the files. In my experience this works most of the time. The only time I have had any issue was on certain classical albums that the software could not identify. Maybe 5% of the classical discs I have tried. All others appear to work fine for me. I have ripped all of my SACD to my server and helped a few members in our audio club rip theirs for their servers.

    The only machines that I have heard people using and searching out for this particular purpose are the Oppos. It is nice to know that others are out there also since the last generation Oppos (203/205) can not.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  37. #37

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yes. Easy as pie. And free. Just need the right blu-Ray player - list above. With an Oppo 103/105 it’s a snap.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    So, Can these Blu-ray players rip red book CDs as well?

    And, with the right software from Sonore And a digital input on your server, you can rip direct to your servers storage?
    Source: Taiko Audio Server, Cisco 2960 Switch, Gigafoil, Lampizator Pacific Dac. Amp: Bakoon 13r Speakers: AvantGarde Duo Mezzo XD, Cables: Alan Maher Designs Power, Duelund Speaker, Shunyata Sigma IC's Audioquest Diamond ethernet. Room Treatment Vicoustic.

  38. #38
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Willco View Post
    So, Can these Blu-ray players rip red book CDs as well?

    And, with the right software from Sonore And a digital input on your server, you can rip direct to your servers storage?
    No (just use a regular CD drive on your computer for that) and yes.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  39. #39

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by cmarin View Post
    Without a doubt “the original quality of the recording/mastering” is paramount.

    But the point that several of us have made in this thread about a quality CD transport being superior to a CD rip or streaming is based on comparing the same recording/mastering version on all three options as well as the same downstream system. That way the variation on the recording/mastering (as well as thebdoenstresm system) is removed and it’s only the playback method response that is being compared.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I don't have any direct experience comparing cd transport to local files, so I can only defer to those who have.

    But it does seem to me possible, if not likely, that the advancements that are pushing forward in server tech and network optimization will eventually eclipse the best transports.

    For what it's worth, on a What's Best thread, a user has reported that the PCie storage on the Taiko Audio Extreme server is "much better" than their Metronome T8 ($17k) transport.

    Just reporting info off the internet...
    Source: Taiko Audio Server, Cisco 2960 Switch, Gigafoil, Lampizator Pacific Dac. Amp: Bakoon 13r Speakers: AvantGarde Duo Mezzo XD, Cables: Alan Maher Designs Power, Duelund Speaker, Shunyata Sigma IC's Audioquest Diamond ethernet. Room Treatment Vicoustic.

  40. #40
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Willco View Post
    ...you can rip direct to your servers storage?

    I assume you can, however I do not really see this as an advantage. I make multiple copies as backups so the few extra minutes not having to copy it to my server makes no difference, and I would then have to copy it back off the server.

    It is a fairly time consuming process. Each disk seems to take 10-15 minutes in my experience, so copying them to the location I want on my server is fairly irrelevant.

    Oh, as far as I know this is a Windows program, unless other versions have come out.
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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    "You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
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  41. #41

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    And beyond local files out performing top-end transports, they (Taiko) have the ear-bending goal of surpassing all of it with Streaming.

    One idea floated on the Taiko WBF thread was to stream temporarily into the PCIe storage and then playback shortly after as local files. But this would have to have the legal/tech cooperation from Roon...
    Source: Taiko Audio Server, Cisco 2960 Switch, Gigafoil, Lampizator Pacific Dac. Amp: Bakoon 13r Speakers: AvantGarde Duo Mezzo XD, Cables: Alan Maher Designs Power, Duelund Speaker, Shunyata Sigma IC's Audioquest Diamond ethernet. Room Treatment Vicoustic.

  42. #42
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Willco View Post
    For what it's worth, on a What's Best thread, a user has reported that the PCie storage on the Taiko Audio Extreme server is "much better" than their Metronome T8 ($17k) transport.
    The issue I have noticed with the What’s Best forum is that it is dominated by the What’s Most Expensive gang. Whether most expensive translates to best is subjective.
    Bud

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
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    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
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  43. #43

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    The issue I have noticed with the What’s Best forum is that it is dominated by the What’s Most Expensive gang. Whether most expensive translates to best is subjective.
    Whether that has any truth to it or not, I'm not sure how that's a very useful comment...

    And is there anything in Audio that's not subjective?

    More to the topic of this thread, it's a lot more interesting to me to look into what innovative server builders are doing to possibly eclipse the best cd transports (which incidentally can be equal to or double the price of the Taiko server).
    Source: Taiko Audio Server, Cisco 2960 Switch, Gigafoil, Lampizator Pacific Dac. Amp: Bakoon 13r Speakers: AvantGarde Duo Mezzo XD, Cables: Alan Maher Designs Power, Duelund Speaker, Shunyata Sigma IC's Audioquest Diamond ethernet. Room Treatment Vicoustic.

  44. #44
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Willco View Post
    Whether that has any truth to it or not, I'm not sure how that's a very useful comment...

    And is there anything in Audio that's not subjective?

    More to the topic of this thread, it's a lot more interesting to me to look into what innovative server builders are doing to possibly eclipse the best cd transports (which incidentally can be equal to or double the price of the Taiko server).
    Thanks for supporting my observation.
    Bud

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
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    Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  45. #45

    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    I'm actually not supporting or denying your observation. I just don't think it has any relevance to this thread.
    Source: Taiko Audio Server, Cisco 2960 Switch, Gigafoil, Lampizator Pacific Dac. Amp: Bakoon 13r Speakers: AvantGarde Duo Mezzo XD, Cables: Alan Maher Designs Power, Duelund Speaker, Shunyata Sigma IC's Audioquest Diamond ethernet. Room Treatment Vicoustic.

  46. #46
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    I cannot tell a difference between physical CDs, or playing the same ripped CDs from a computer, or Tidal.

    But... I do prefer SACDs to all of those above.

    Now... if I take my ripped CDs or Tidal streams and upsample and convert them to DSD512... Then I like those better than anything else (including SACD which is basically DSD64).

    So I no longer care about buying physical CDs or SACDs (or MQA for that matter). The upsampled, converted DSD512 versions sound better to me.



    In my opinion, CDs are already dead. Streaming won.
    The problem is that many albums or artists are not available on streaming services. So I still buy CDs and especially LPs.

    I love Tidal but it's a mess sometimes. Tidal goes sour when you have more then one artists with the same name.
    Pre amp: Ocatve Phono Module Power amps: Octave MRE130 Turntable: SAC Girati Grande. Tonearm: Dynavector 507mkII Cartridge: Dynavector Ikeda 9TT Streamer: Aurender A10 Power Distributor: Anzus Mains D8 Speakers: Raidho X-3 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 XLR Interlink: Ansuz A2, [B]XLR Interlink: [B]Phono interlink: Cammino Serie 1.0 - PH 1.0s Power cables: Anzus Mains Ceramic, two Pom, Aluminium, X series Audio Rack: Rack of Silence 4 and 2.

  47. #47
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    My main problem with streaming is the limited content.

    There is no
    Einsturzende Neubauten: Silence is Sexy
    Godthrymm
    Toner Low
    Saint Vitus
    Skepticism
    etc etc
    Pre amp: Ocatve Phono Module Power amps: Octave MRE130 Turntable: SAC Girati Grande. Tonearm: Dynavector 507mkII Cartridge: Dynavector Ikeda 9TT Streamer: Aurender A10 Power Distributor: Anzus Mains D8 Speakers: Raidho X-3 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 XLR Interlink: Ansuz A2, [B]XLR Interlink: [B]Phono interlink: Cammino Serie 1.0 - PH 1.0s Power cables: Anzus Mains Ceramic, two Pom, Aluminium, X series Audio Rack: Rack of Silence 4 and 2.

  48. #48
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    The problem is that many albums or artists are not available on streaming services. So I still buy CDs and especially LPs.

    I love Tidal but it's a mess sometimes. Tidal goes sour when you have more then one artists with the same name.
    I guess you haven't noticed that sites such as Amazon have intentionally stopped inventorying many older CD's and you can only order them now as downloads. In addition many other titles that are only available as ad-hoc CD-R copies.

    No one is debating the fact that some older LP catalog titles were never transferred to CD but remember just as many releases over the past 30 years were never offered as vinyl.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
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  49. #49
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    My main problem with streaming is the limited content.

    There is no
    Einsturzende Neubauten: Silence is Sexy
    Godthrymm
    Toner Low
    Saint Vitus
    Skepticism
    etc etc
    I didn't check Apple Music or Spotify but over half of those are available on Tidal.

    Where are you finding them to purchase? Amazon only offers some of them as MP3 downloads.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
    Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
    Digital: dCS Vivaldi APEX DAC, Clock & Upsampler
    Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
    Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
    Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata
    Power Conditioner - Shunyata Everest

  50. #50
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    Re: Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    I didn't check Apple Music or Spotify but over half of those are available on Tidal.

    Where are you finding them to purchase? Amazon only offers some of them as MP3 downloads.
    I only have Qobuz, no Tidal.

    My local shop still sells a lot of CDs. The shop is about 50/50 CD/LP. I do buy download. Mostly from bandcamp. My main source is my turntable. But I do also like to stream music. I have a sneaky suspision that Tidal has a wider range in music compared to Qobuz
    Pre amp: Ocatve Phono Module Power amps: Octave MRE130 Turntable: SAC Girati Grande. Tonearm: Dynavector 507mkII Cartridge: Dynavector Ikeda 9TT Streamer: Aurender A10 Power Distributor: Anzus Mains D8 Speakers: Raidho X-3 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 XLR Interlink: Ansuz A2, [B]XLR Interlink: [B]Phono interlink: Cammino Serie 1.0 - PH 1.0s Power cables: Anzus Mains Ceramic, two Pom, Aluminium, X series Audio Rack: Rack of Silence 4 and 2.

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