Thread: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
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March 21, 2019, 01:45 PM #51
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
To the OP:
Generally I prefer tubes. Its easier to get them to sound like real music. With any amplifier its all about the distortion the amp makes and often more importantly what distortion the amp doesn't make. Tubes generally make less higher ordered harmonic distortion and this is why tubes are still around decades on after being declared obsolete.
Transistors tend to be overall lower distortion but the distortion they do make is mostly higher ordered. The problem here is that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure (IOW the fundamental is not used). This is probably because pure sine waves don't exist in nature. In addition, the ear converts all forms of distortion into some sort of tonality. So when the higher orders are present the ear hears it as brightness and hardness, even though the actual measured levels can be quite low (0.005%). This is simply because the ear has to function over a 120db range and has to be able to ascertain the loudness of sounds over that entire range.
Add on to that the Fletcher-Muson curve and you have a problem. That curve exists because our ears are tuned to be the most sensitive at birdsong frequencies. Birds are the first warning indication of a predator in the vicinity; if you can't hear them you could be dead very soon! So the ear is more sensitive at 5-7KHz which also happens to be an area rich in instrument harmonics. Its easy to see why tubes are still around- they mess with and generate less of these harmonics (5th and above).
To be clear, brightness is a coloration every bit much as the coloration of the 2nd harmonic that many (but not all) tube amps exhibit.
So the way I see it is its fine if a very good hifi is what you want your system to sound like, but I want it to sound real. To cross that line, you can't have the equipment making things brighter and harsher than real life. So I stay away from transistors since their introduction in the system means it will never sound real, although it might sound very good.
IMO/IME if the spec sheets had a weighting system where the lower orders were weighted less and the higher orders more (say a 1 for the 2nd harmonic, the 7th might get a 1000) then they might be useful. If we had such a weighting system it would be easier to tell how an amplifier sounds just be looking at the spec sheet. Its obvious that such is the last thing the industry wants, so don't expect any changes in that regard in the next half century or so. FWIW, we've known that the ear has these peculiar sensitivities to harmonics and also converts these distortions to tonality for a very long time- since the 1930s at least (see the Radiotron Designer's Handbook, volume 3). Despite that, we continue to design stuff to look good on paper rather than design to meet human hearing-perceptual rules.
But people have figured it out and you don't have to know anything at all about the technical side. All that you need to know is that tubes are still here! They were declared obsolete in the early 1960s which means that they have been 'obsolete' longer than when they were the only game in town. But some how they persist. Usually when a superior technology comes along, the prior art disappears and becomes a thing of collectors and junk shops like buggy whips. That hasn't happened with tubes which says that they aren't actually 'obsolete' at all- the reality is that if you want to make the best sounding music, tubes are your number 1 goto.
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March 21, 2019, 02:28 PM #52
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Ralph ,
You left out no output transformers and the necessity for high impedance speakers
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March 21, 2019, 02:31 PM #53
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
The science tells us how to match the load to the amplifier and this also determines what we will hear. Unfortunately all of it is wrong vs “real” , to some degree, hence why there’s Tubes and SS ..
There’s no clear cut winner ...!
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March 21, 2019, 04:03 PM #54
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
8 ohms just doesn't seem that high to me.
With regards to 4 ohm speakers, no matter what kind of amp you have, its distortion is higher driving 4 ohms. If sound quality is your goal, your amplifier investment dollar will be best served by a speaker that is greater than 4 ohms as the decreased distortion will be audible as smoother and more detailed sound.
OTOH if sound pressure is your goal you might have a 3dB argument for a 4 ohm speaker. Speaker cables are also more critical on 4 ohm loads.
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March 21, 2019, 04:53 PM #55
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
So distortion matters ...?
What about lower distortion in speakers..? Every doubling of drivers from 8-4ohm reduce thd by 50% ..
How is that for sum ..
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March 21, 2019, 04:56 PM #56
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
There is no panacea in Audio, just preferences, myself prefer the lower speaker distortion over the slight increase in amp Thd ...
Regards
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March 21, 2019, 06:26 PM #57
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Right now I'm liking SS. But that could change one day.
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March 22, 2019, 12:03 PM #58
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March 22, 2019, 04:46 PM #59
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Vitus brought me back to SS.
Was as fed up with the heat, tube quality, bias adjustments and reliability issues.
Just switch on now and an hour later everything is ready every time.
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March 23, 2019, 09:29 PM #61
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March 24, 2019, 10:41 PM #62
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
I think if I lived in Florida I might favor SS as well. My room get pretty hot here Inn sC during the summer months (and its on its own HVAC System)!
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March 25, 2019, 02:32 PM #63
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
My amps are autobias so no time is spent doing adjustments. I just use the garden variety of tubes and it works great. Just switch on now and 15 minutes later everything is ready every time, although it sounds better than any transistors I've tried in far less than that. But my amps were designed to be easy on the tubes- some amps are not.
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March 25, 2019, 05:40 PM #64
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Ralph ,
How does your autobias differs from VAC’s ..?
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March 25, 2019, 06:16 PM #65
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
I don't have air conditioning in my music room, and apart from cost considerations, having less heat in the summer months was a vital practical consideration for going with 4-tube stereo amp rather than with 4 + 4 tube mono blocks (even the stereo amp power is total overkill for my monitors). My 130 W/ch class A/B Octave amp definitely heats the room much less than my old 15 W/ch class A triode monoblocks did! Summer listening is so much nicer now.
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March 25, 2019, 08:53 PM #66
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Nothing beats a great SET...or in my case , 2 ..IMO...of course i can't be impartial...can I.....Would not trade my amps for ANY other tube amps or SS amps .....
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March 26, 2019, 11:36 AM #67
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
I agree on the SET amps. I absolutely love my Audio Mirror SET mono blocks... I do have my little T+A if I am in the mood for some SS also...
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March 26, 2019, 03:07 PM #68
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Its probably simpler. Its a simple circuit that makes sure the tubes don't roast if the AC line voltage gets too high, and increases the bias current as the output power goes up. There is a manual DC Offset control- that takes about 3 seconds to set. The meter to do so is also an active VU meter.
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March 29, 2019, 09:03 PM #69
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Actually this is BS, simply not true.
Just check the FFT graphs of the tube amps measured in Stereophile and it's obvious that their harmonics level and order are much higher than in a low distortion SS amp. Compare them with amps from Boulder, Soulution, Audionet and Benchmark and I hope you'll stop spreading this BS that tube amps produce the good distortion and SS has the bad distortion that you've done for years.
Not to mention that all tube amps have horrible intermodulation distortion (that's the nasty distortion) compared to SS.
If you prefer the distortion of tubes, fine; but don't come up with scientific BS to justify this preference.
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April 1, 2019, 06:14 PM #70
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Your first statement (emphasis added) here is false.
But I agree with a fair bit of what you posted. FWIW our amps tend to have very low IMD but it appears that they are very much the exception.
However, if I can draw your attention to something in the Stereophile reviews. Now I've not made an exhaustive examination, just three to be exact- the Nagra VPA amplifier, Parasound A21 and one of the Soulution amps. The Nagra and the Parasound are measured on the same ground (50Hz test tone) but the Soulution is not; its measured at 1KHz. However, the measurements support your statement very clearly as shown; but if you look at the distortion harmonics at the upper end of the Nagra and the Parasound, what we see is that the frequency at that point is only 1KHz. We also see that the Nagra has decreasing distortion components as the order increases; with the Parasound this is not the case (although overall it has lower distortion). There is a hint that above 1KHz the distortion spectra might be increasing in the Parasound. Can't tell; that's how Stereophile did it.
IOW is that to tell the whole story, the distortion spectra needs to be shown over a wider band of frequencies, not just limited to 1KHz. The Soulution got off the hook since it was measured at 1KHz and really its the higher orders with which the ear has troubles, but in just these examples we can't see what they look like when they get into the ear's most sensitive region (Fletcher-Munson). The single biggest complaint against solid state is brightness and harshness and since the ear is most sensitive at considerably higher frequencies it seems important to see how the amps might compare. I found additional amplifier measurements made by Soundstage!... We can see that Bascomb King uses a different method of quantifying his results so there really isn't an easy way to compare here. You'll note I simply said 'higher ordered harmonic distortion' but I didn't say which harmonics specifically.
I feel that I have been over-generalizing though, but your statement doesn't offer any additional substance with regards to what the difference is about. I don't accept that its just distortion as I can build a tube amp that has similarly lower distortion figures (we used to run quite a lot of feedback on our amps long ago; OTLs can have vanishingly low distortion if you run the same feedback levels that solid state amps do) and it sounds smoother than solid state so wut up?
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April 1, 2019, 07:32 PM #71
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
I prefer PASS 150lb Class A Mono Blocks with their detailed, organic sexy sound and with plenty of power to drive the most difficult speakers!
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April 1, 2019, 07:46 PM #72
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
@atmasphere you said and repeated over the years that a priori tube amps produce less high order distortion than SS and that is the reason they sound better (your personal opinion); like a fatality in which, even if the tubes wanted to produce high order distortion, they wouldn't be able due to their nature and SS wouldn't be able to get rid or lower the high order distortion to values less than tubes due to its nature. Thats BS statement.
My opinion is that those who prefer tube amps like them exactly because they produce much more distortion (level and order wise) which adds body to the music, make's it sound organic, real, harmonicaly rich whatever. It's the same with vinyl and NOS DACs preferences.
Here are some SS amps with their 50Hz spectrum measured
1115BAHB2fig09.jpg 217B2150fig8.jpg 717AudiMaxfig08.jpg
and some with their 1kHz spectrum
1115BAHB2fig10.jpg 717AudiMaxfig09.jpg 911MF1fig10.jpg
Compare them to whatever tube amp you want.
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April 1, 2019, 07:57 PM #73
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Since you mentioned Soundstage measurements, here is your MA1 Mk II.2 amplifier compared to some SS ones.
MA1 Mk II.2
vs Benchmark AHB2
vs Bryston 4B3
vs Luxman M-900u
vs Mola Mola Kaluga (class D no less)
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April 1, 2019, 10:25 PM #74
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Many say it's the distortion that makes tubes sound like they do, and, I know the different amps measure differently with various distortions. Yet my unscientific mind has serious doubts that it is all distortion related.
Somehow tubes are more able to trigger some sense that a being is singing in the room. In general tubes put a more flesh on the bone feel. And, typically a more 3D like sense, you get more of an organ's body, shape, with tubes, not just notes like most SS. If distortion does this and I still hear the detail, then, distortion can't be the bad guy it's made out to be.
My theory is somehow tubes effect us in a different way of hearing. Like I can tell the difference without looking if I am in a room with a lot of reflections "live" versus a treated room. Can you feel an open doorway when walking a hall? I suspect something in tube gear is more along this line. It's like on some tube systems I get the same sense from the music as I do from another person in the room.
Now on some tube gear a brass instrument, for example, may sound more diffuse, maybe larger than it should, things like this I could accept being from some type of distortion.
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April 2, 2019, 03:48 AM #75
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
At the end of the day I find the discussions sbout amp distortion to some extent misguided. Loudspeakers distort more than amps do. So do adverse room reflections. I can't believe how much perceived distortion and HF "ringing" was removed recently from my room after I installed custom ceiling diffusers (ASC). That was subsequent to other extensive room treatment.
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April 2, 2019, 07:47 AM #76
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
I think the question asked in the OP is far too broad. Is the SS amp Class A or AB? Is the tube amp triode or pentode? I recently directly compared a friend's stereo pentode tube amp to my mono block Class A SS amps in my system and later that same pentode tube amp to a third friend's triode tube mono block amps. I was quite surprised by what I heard. The pentode tube amp sounded very similar in both systems and quite different from the SS Class A amps and triode tube amps while the latter two seemed to have very similar sonic characteristics in the different systems.
All of the amplifiers were able to drive the speakers to adequate levels with what seemed like low distortion, but they really sounded very different and I suspect the three listeners each preferred his own amplifier(s) to the others. I would now like to compare the SS Class A amps to the powerful tube triode amps in the same system to hear how different or similar they sound. That might also be quite surprising given the comments here about how different SS and tube amps are supposed to sound.
It is all quite fascinating and why one should probably hear a particular amp with his speakers before buying it.Link to my system thread: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
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April 2, 2019, 08:43 AM #77
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
That reminds me of a blind test with a switch box that I heard demonstrated in a store in the Netherlands in the early Nineties. They demoed SS amps, a few Japanese amps and a Rotel. While all amps probably had low distortion figures on paper, they sounded radically different, and the Rotel far and away sounded the most natural. It's not just simplistically about a "topology", you have to hear an amp in your system for yourself.
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April 2, 2019, 09:05 AM #78
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
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April 2, 2019, 09:18 AM #79
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April 2, 2019, 09:24 AM #80
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
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April 2, 2019, 09:27 AM #81
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April 2, 2019, 12:04 PM #82
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
I prefer solid state amps in my own system. I have preferred those to the tube amps that I have heard in my system, though I have not heard many alternatives. I have also heard some tube amps that remind me of solid state amps, and visa versa in other systems, though those "typical" characteristics are becoming less apparent to me.
Based on some recent experiments, I find it difficult to generalize about each typology having a characteristic sound.
I don't know which type is generally considered superior. I guess it depends.Link to my system thread: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
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April 2, 2019, 12:18 PM #83
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
That's interesting. The two comparisons to which I was referring were nothing like blind tests. The listeners knew exactly which amp was which and there was no "black box" switching capability. No one swore that the tube amp sounded like SS or the SS like the tube, nor were there funny comments made after the comparison.
The amplifiers simply sounded different, and in surprising ways, to me at least. They were easy, fun, and educational experiments which were primarily about determining whether or not my friend's stereo pentode tube amp could drive the two pairs of Magico speakers and whether or not the amp produced a "synthetic" sound in those particular systems. I think we all learned a lot.Link to my system thread: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
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April 2, 2019, 12:23 PM #84
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Link to my system thread: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
Analog: Micro Seiki SX 8000 II, 2 NOS SME 3012R tonearms, 2 vdH Colibri Grand Cru, Colibri XPP
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Speakers: Vitavox CN-191 corner horns
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April 2, 2019, 01:51 PM #85
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April 2, 2019, 03:14 PM #86
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Nope apples and oranges
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April 2, 2019, 03:16 PM #87
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Now examine the distortion of well designed toob amps at mW levels its very low , this first watt is very important , this is where toob amps are better than SS , they dont need high NFB to generate low levels of distortion at mW outputs ..
SS amps are better on the gallop , where high powered drive is necessary , unfortunately a good one is a rare beast today ..
BTW ,
SS amps should be matched to the speaker load with the same effort used by tooby guys ..
load first then amp to drive the load ...
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April 2, 2019, 03:19 PM #88
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April 2, 2019, 04:08 PM #89
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April 2, 2019, 04:15 PM #90
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
And here is another toob amp @ 1V into 8 Ohm (125mW).
Impressive!
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April 2, 2019, 04:36 PM #91
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
That SS is running Feedback and btw degeneration is feedback ...
regards
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April 2, 2019, 04:39 PM #92
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Cherry picking graphs does not a picture make , you have to look at global measurements to decide load and drive application ..
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April 2, 2019, 04:48 PM #93
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Have you designed or built amps before all feedback is essentially global , so you can leave the market hype like full CLass A and no NFB at home ...
The story which emerges is that all well built tooby amplifiers have very low distortion when operated in the mW range, there is no disadvantage and since most underpower their hiFi systems they end up comparing clipping characteristics , here the tooby amp is less offensive
And why many consider them over SS amps..
Thats my observation...
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April 2, 2019, 05:16 PM #94
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Afraid to ask but, what do you mean? Are you one of the zombies out there chanting the Feedback is evil mantra btw?
No, the story that emerges is that no toob amp, irrespective of cost, can be as clean as a good SS amp even at mW power level (as if that has any relevance anyway in the real world).
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April 2, 2019, 05:33 PM #95
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Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Only thing that upward distortion graph shows is that the distortion is above the noise.
A downward distortion graph doesn't mean the amp has more distortion at low power, but that the noise covers the distortion (it's a THD+N measurement) and as you lower the power, that noise becomes a larger part of the signal.
The graph bellow shows that the distortion level is under the noise floor right until clipping. But if you do an FFT measurement @1W and @100W, the amp will be cleaner @1W than @100W, despite the apparent higher distortion @1W in the THD+N measurement.
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April 2, 2019, 05:36 PM #96
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
I have maintained over the years that the reason tubes sound smoother (not better) has to do with distortion. BTW, for the graphics to be useful, they should be 50Hz signals as seen but going up to 10KHz, not 1 KHz; these graphics have the same problem as I pointed out to you about the Stereophile measurements. As well they lack validity when divorced from the equipment that they might represent.
Regarding our amp, it appears that when Bascomb did the measurement, something in his measurement rig was causing one speaker terminal to be at ground. This causes the amp to make a lot more distortion, starting with the 2nd harmonic (this is on account of the fact that the output section is floating with respect to ground, and the drive becomes unbalanced when one speaker terminal is grounded). Normally the amp's main distortion component is the 3rd (typical of fully differential amplifiers), and in our current lineup that is the primary component, yielding a THD of around 0.5%, not bad for a zero feedback design. In addition we found that when Bascomb made the measurements, he neglected to correct the line voltage. You'll note that he claimed that the amps only made about 100 watts when we rate them at 140 watts. I was curious where the additional power went and it was easy to see. We measure the line voltage at the amplifier IEC connections (120VAC) and he measured it probably on the AC meter of his variac. There was a voltage drop across the power cord; turned out that was where the missing 40 watts went. Power cords apparently have an audible and measurable effect
Regarding your comment about a 'corectly biased amp' [sic] the statement is false. Just look at the distortion curve of most amplifiers and you will see that the distortion has a certain minimum level, below which the distortion increases. This is a phenomena common to many tube, solid state and class D amplifiers. But that first watt is important, just ask Nelson Pass or anyone owning his First Watt products (BTW his little VFET re-imagining of the old Sony circuit is excellent). SETs are some of the very few amplifiers in which the distortion linearly decreases to measurable as power is decreased. It is difficult to build a push pull amp that shares this property but they do exist.
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April 2, 2019, 05:41 PM #97
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April 2, 2019, 06:08 PM #98
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
- Posts
- 334
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
Yes, tube amps sound smoother due to more distortion, not less. Why the 50Hz graphs should go to 10kHz when the harmonics don't even reach 1kHz? How is it of any relevance the specific amp models? But if it helps you:
for the 50Hz: 1st Benchmark AHB2, 2nd Boulder 2150, 3rd Audionet Max
for the 1kHz: 1st Benchmark AHB2, 2nd Audionet Max, 3rd Musical Fidelity AMS100
Now you're blaming the measurement and the power chord?
Yes, if and when the distortion raises above the noise. If not, you'll just have a straight downward curve right until clipping. Any amplifier, tube or SS, SE or PP, has less distortion at low power than at high power.
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April 2, 2019, 06:58 PM #99
Re: Do you prefer SS or tube? Why?
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April 2, 2019, 07:01 PM #100
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