MSB Pro USB

[Mike]

MSB continues to push the envelope!

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/0...-part.html?m=1


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[steinkrieg]

Well alrighty then... let the games begin.

Correct me if I’m wrong here. One type of use would be Roon nucleus > the full pro usb set up. I assume this handles MQA decoding AND rendering? If that is the case then MSB users would look to do a shootout between this and the MSB Ethernet renderer V2..? Kind of like the LUMIN X1 fiber vs ethernet connection debate...?

[aKnyght]

as mentioned before, fiber input is the future... delivers a pure digital signal sans all the accumulated upstream electrical noise. wonder why MSB went with a proprietary solution (pro ISL)? would seem to make for compatibility issues in the future.

[Priaptor]

as mentioned before, fiber input is the future... delivers a pure digital signal sans all the accumulated upstream electrical noise. wonder why MSB went with a proprietary solution (pro ISL)? would seem to make for compatibility issues in the future.

They believe EVERYTHING sounds better via their pro ISL. I have had many discussions with Vince regarding this versus their other inputs.

[Ritmo]

Posted in another website by someone named JMSB from MSB.

"
I’m from MSB Technology and I would like to share a few of the technical advantages the Pro ISL interface (and Pro USB) has over other digital audio interfaces. The only downsides of the Pro ISL interface are 2W of power consumption and compatibility only with MSB DACs.

DAC syncronous scrambled streaming data. Clocking of the data stream is syncronized to the DAC with a separate clock feedback link in a second fiber. Unlike block based protocols like Ethernet or USB, the Pro ISL interface does not generate electical noise in the audible band upon reception.

Strong forward error correction (optionally traded for more audio data channels) instantly corrects most errors including up to 1024 bit gaps in the audio data stream upon reception.

Very strong CRC based error detection (an HD8 CRC polynomial protects each 64 bits of audio data, an HD10 CRC polynomial for misc data). Allows quick identification of failing links and prevents playback of erroneous data.

Less than 10 milliseconds to lock to an active data stream.

Very low noise reception due to very low noise hardware decoding, data stream scrambling and balancing. Ethernet for example requires a complex operating system and usually an electrically noisy general purpose processor for reception and decoding. Ethernet, even optical Ethernet, also uses large asyncronous data blocks that generate much low frequency noise during decoding.

Perfect isolation from the non conductive single mode glass fiber.

Greater than 1km cable lengths are possible. Also no EMI radiation or conduction due to non conductive cabling. Cabling is safe safe to run anywhere because it is non conductive.

Much lower received jitter than any other digital audio interface. Cabling even at extreme lengths adds almost no jitter because single mode glass fiber cable has nearly zero dispersion and extreamly low attenuation of the modulated infrared laser light.

Supports 12 channels of 32bit/768Khz PCM data with forward error correction or many more channels without. Supports up to 32bit/3Mhz 2 channel PCM data. Supports 8 channels of 16x native DSD. Support for data stream format extensions for future data formats. Simple mailbox style communication channel for misc information. Strong CRC based error detection for all data. The Pro USB uses just a subset of the complete capabilities of the Pro ISL interface so it is ready for future expansion.

The Pro USB is as easy to install and configure as any other of our USB interfaces."

[Mike]

Testing it out today.


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[Kingsrule]

Posted in another website by someone named JMSB from MSB.

"
I’m from MSB Technology and I would like to share a few of the technical advantages the Pro ISL interface (and Pro USB) has over other digital audio interfaces. The only downsides of the Pro ISL interface are 2W of power consumption and compatibility only with MSB DACs.

DAC syncronous scrambled streaming data. Clocking of the data stream is syncronized to the DAC with a separate clock feedback link in a second fiber. Unlike block based protocols like Ethernet or USB, the Pro ISL interface does not generate electical noise in the audible band upon reception.

Strong forward error correction (optionally traded for more audio data channels) instantly corrects most errors including up to 1024 bit gaps in the audio data stream upon reception.

Very strong CRC based error detection (an HD8 CRC polynomial protects each 64 bits of audio data, an HD10 CRC polynomial for misc data). Allows quick identification of failing links and prevents playback of erroneous data.

Less than 10 milliseconds to lock to an active data stream.

Very low noise reception due to very low noise hardware decoding, data stream scrambling and balancing. Ethernet for example requires a complex operating system and usually an electrically noisy general purpose processor for reception and decoding. Ethernet, even optical Ethernet, also uses large asyncronous data blocks that generate much low frequency noise during decoding.

Perfect isolation from the non conductive single mode glass fiber.

Greater than 1km cable lengths are possible. Also no EMI radiation or conduction due to non conductive cabling. Cabling is safe safe to run anywhere because it is non conductive.

Much lower received jitter than any other digital audio interface. Cabling even at extreme lengths adds almost no jitter because single mode glass fiber cable has nearly zero dispersion and extreamly low attenuation of the modulated infrared laser light.

Supports 12 channels of 32bit/768Khz PCM data with forward error correction or many more channels without. Supports up to 32bit/3Mhz 2 channel PCM data. Supports 8 channels of 16x native DSD. Support for data stream format extensions for future data formats. Simple mailbox style communication channel for misc information. Strong CRC based error detection for all data. The Pro USB uses just a subset of the complete capabilities of the Pro ISL interface so it is ready for future expansion.

The Pro USB is as easy to install and configure as any other of our USB interfaces."

Actually it was posted by DMSB who I'm thinking is Daniel Gullman.....

[steinkrieg]

I'm not fully up to speed on MSB world, but is this really only for hard drive / nas scenarios? Or, is it a possible replacement option for the ethernet renderer?

[GiorgioNuvolari]

Mike, do let us know how you get on!
It seems that we in Europe will get them soonest around the Munich show. Can't wait!
Best, GN

[Mike]

Mike, do let us know how you get on!
It seems that we in Europe will get them soonest around the Munich show. Can't wait!
Best, GN

I had a full day of testing yesterday. In 65% of the songs, we preferred the Roon Renderer (with GigaFoil/Keces). In 35% of the songs we preferred the Pro USB (with GigaFoil/Keces feeding either the Nucleus + or the Aurender N10). We tried multiple USB cables as well: Curious, WW Platinum 7, Synergistic Research (some new top of the line Ted gave me) and a few others.

It’s a great product for those who still want to use a USB player in their system and may not necessarily like Roon. But in my opinion, it introduces the characteristic of three different cable types into the mix: Ethernet, Fiber, USB. Backgrounds did sound blacker with the Pro USB. I think. The issue was that they were both so close in sound, there cannot be a clear cut winner. Each had very subtle characteristics and benefits.

It is certainly on par with the Roon Renderer. For the store, I will be sticking with the Roon Renderer for simplicity sake.

Personally, I would love to see a Ethernet to Pro ISL box (even if it would require power). Just my two cents.

But in the end, it’s another great product from MSB and further lending to the benefits of a modular system.

[Alpinist]

I had a full day of testing yesterday. In 65% of the songs, we preferred the Roon Renderer (with GigaFoil/Keces). In 35% of the songs we preferred the Pro USB (with GigaFoil/Keces feeding either the Nucleus + or the Aurender N10). We tried multiple USB cables as well: Curious, WW Platinum 7, Synergistic Research (some new top of the line Ted gave me) and a few others.

It’s a great product for those who still want to use a USB player in their system and may not necessarily like Roon. But in my opinion, it introduces the characteristic of three different cable types into the mix: Ethernet, Fiber, USB. Backgrounds did sound blacker with the Pro USB. I think. The issue was that they were both so close in sound, there cannot be a clear cut winner. Each had very subtle characteristics and benefits.

It is certainly on par with the Roon Renderer. For the store, I will be sticking with the Roon Renderer for simplicity sake.

Personally, I would love to see a Ethernet to Pro ISL box (even if it would require power). Just my two cents.

But in the end, it’s another great product from MSB and further lending to the benefits of a modular system.

Thanks Mike for the review. I will be sticking with the MSB Renderer V2. I agree that the Renderer V3 would also benefit from going outboard to a specially designed Pro ISL Input Module that has a DC power output to the Renderer V3. I would purchase this even though it would reduce the utility of my GigaFoilv4 Ethernet Filter.

Ken

[Kingsrule]

M

Confused here. Did u try a standard ethernet cable from your network into the Nucleus+ and then USB out thru the PRO USB connection into the SII DAC?

If not could u try that please?

[Mike]

M

Confused here. Did u try a standard ethernet cable from your network into the Nucleus+ and then USB out thru the PRO USB connection into the SII DAC?

If not could u try that please?

Yes. Already did. Subtle differences. I started with the plain Jane cable setup.


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[Alpinist]

Yes. Already did. Subtle differences. I started with the plain Jane cable setup.


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I really have no interest in going back to using a USB cable unless the Pro USB Module blows the Renderer V2 out of the water, which it does not appear to do.

Ken

[GiorgioNuvolari]

Thank you, Mike for your findings, which are very interesting!
Having a well isolated ethernet switch connected with cables one finds satisfying to the MSB renderer seems to be the ticket for now...
And I agree, ETH to ProISL looks like a winner for the future.
I will report back in a few months when I get a chance to compare myself.
All the best, GN

[Kingsrule]

The PRO USB sounds real good to me....

[Alpinist]

The PRO USB sounds real good to me....

Hi King,

Which USB cable are you using?

Ken

[Kingsrule]

A generic one!

[Alpinist]

The PRO USB sounds real good to me....

Hi King,

I am not surprised by your comment, I expected the MSB Pro USB to be excellent. Every MSB digital input module has been outstanding and all are designed in-house. They don’t play follow the leader. That’s why they’re better.

As for me, I will stick with the MSB Renderer V2 until a V3 comes out. Since the addition of the GigaFoilv4 Ethernet Filter, the Keces P3 LPS for the GigaFoilv4, the Keces P8 LPS for the Roon Nucleus Plus, Audience AU24SE Power Cords for each Keces LPS, and AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet Cables for the network, I am getting unprecedented sound quality out of my system. Extraordinary detail, nuance and ease, as well as holographic imaging, all coming from a dead silent background.

I never thought it could could be this great. Thanks again to Mike for the recommendations!

Ken

[Kingsrule]

What I'm trying to come to grips with is the bass between the PRO USB and GF into V2 renderer.

The GF bass on its own is very enticing but when compared to PRO USB it's bloated, heavy, artificial, like going to most non classical concerts.

On the other hand the PRO USB might be a TOUCH thin. I never played the USB connection games but my instinct tells me a good USB cable might get it perfect....

Also I don't listen loud and the PRO USB is clearer and more focused

[Alpinist]

On the other hand the PRO USB might be a TOUCH thin. I never played the USB connection games but my instinct tells me a good USB cable might get it perfect....

King,

When you find one that sounds right, please let me know, I’ve been looking for years.

Ken

[jhsu]

My ProUSB interface and module (for my Select II DAC) will be arriving at the end of May - looking forwards to enjoying the benefits of optical noise isolation and re-clocking of data packets to my Femto33 clock’s tick-tock !

[Darryl R]

Hi King,

I am not surprised by your comment, I expected the MSB Pro USB to be excellent. Every MSB digital input module has been outstanding and all are designed in-house. They don’t play follow the leader. That’s why they’re better.

As for me, I will stick with the MSB Renderer V2 until a V3 comes out. Since the addition of the GigaFoilv4 Ethernet Filter, the Keces P3 LPS for the GigaFoilv4, the Keces P8 LPS for the Roon Nucleus Plus, Audience AU24SE Power Cords for each Keces LPS, and AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet Cables for the network, I am getting unprecedented sound quality out of my system. Extraordinary detail, nuance and ease, as well as holographic imaging, all coming from a dead silent background.

I never thought it could could be this great. Thanks again to Mike for the recommendations!

Ken

Hi Ken,

I have my own fanless Roon server for the MSB Renderer V2. I've bridged the two Ethernet connections on the JCAT Ethernet card for an inline feed (or so the "Romaz" theory from computer audiophile goes, though I've yet to definitively prove the routing). I was wondering if you or anyone else did any comparisons of the GigaFoilv4 with the JCAT card (which also has an optional 5v power input). I suppose I could just get one and compare, but the Audioquest Diamond isn't cheap, and I'm interested in opinions as well.

Thanks,
Darryl

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum Daryl, thank you for joining.

[Alpinist]

Hi Ken,

I have my own fanless Roon server for the MSB Renderer V2. I've bridged the two Ethernet connections on the JCAT Ethernet card for an inline feed (or so the "Romaz" theory from computer audiophile goes, though I've yet to definitively prove the routing). I was wondering if you or anyone else did any comparisons of the GigaFoilv4 with the JCAT card (which also has an optional 5v power input). I suppose I could just get one and compare, but the Audioquest Diamond isn't cheap, and I'm interested in opinions as well.

Thanks,
Darryl

Welcome to AudioShark, Darryl. I’m sorry but I haven’t tried a setup along these lines. Mike Bovaird from Suncoast Audio recommended my current configuration and I’ve been extremely happy with it. Totally turnkey and sounds amazing.

Ken

[Darryl R]

Thanks Ken. And glad to hear that. Mike sold me my Select II as well and I can say the same -- just a marvelous piece of audio engineering.

[Darryl R]

Welcome to the forum Daryl, thank you for joining.

Thank you Joe.

[joeinid]

My pleasure, sorry it took so long to notice your first post. Glad you are here.

Thank you Joe.

[Mike]

Thanks Ken. And glad to hear that. Mike sold me my Select II as well and I can say the same -- just a marvelous piece of audio engineering.

Thanks Darryl. Good to see you here.


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[Mike]

I’ve had the MSB ProUSB in the store for over a week now. This one was not a prototype, but rather a completed version and one which I purchased.

How does it compare? Like everything it comes down to personal preference. However, I thought it best to have a few customers over for the shootout.

We wanted to compare:

1. MSB Roon Renderer (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Renderer)
2. MSB Roon Renderer (from wall with CAT6 to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to Renderer)
3. MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Aurender, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC)
4. MSB ProUSB (from wall with CAT6 cable to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to AQ Diamond Ethernet to Aurender, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
5. MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Innous Statement - on demo/loan, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
6. MSB ProUSB (from wall with CAT6 cable to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to AQ Diamond Ethernet to Innous Statement, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
7. MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Roon Nucleus Plus with Keces P8, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
8. MSB ProUSB (from wall with CAT6 cable to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to AQ Diamond Ethernet to Roon Nucleus Plus with Keces P8, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).

At all times, the cables were:

- AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet
- Cheapo Cat 6 (when feeding the GigaFoil)
- AudioQuest Diamond USB
- Analysis Plus Power Cables on the MSB Select II DAC
- AQ Hurricane Source Cables on the various Music Server Transports.

Speakers for the Testing:

B&W 800D3’s with a pair of DB1D subs
Luxman M900u Monos
Luxman C900u Preamp
AQ Speaker Cables and IC’s

- We played an assortment of redbook, high res and DSD64, 256 and 512 files. No MQA as we were playing off the NAS at all times.

Phew!

Findings:

- We found the AQ Diamond with GigaFoil/Keces direct to the MSB Roon Renderer to be the most transparent, with the GigaFoil/Keces taking out some of the grunge in the upper registers.

- The ProUSB nullified the benefits of the GigaFoil/Keces P3. We could hear a big difference in configuration #1/#2, but not once we introduced the ProUSB (which converts USB to Fiber Optic - ProISL).

- However, it was unanimous that the #5 configuration sounded best overall, but finished second due to the reasons noted below. The Innous Statement had meat on the bones, without any noticeable loss in transparency, and sounded very analog. HOWEVER, two notes:

- The Roon Nucleus Plus in the #7 configuration was incredibly close to the Innous Statement - as in 99 vs 100. The Roon Nucleus Plus allows full NATIVE DSD and DSD512. This gave it the edge for our winner in the shootout.

- the Innous Statement is NOT capable of NATIVE DSD on any MSB DAC (via the ProUSB) and it DOES NOT play DSD256 or above on any DAC (limited to DSD128). This may not matter to some, but the NATIVE vs DoP was a big deciding factor, plus we couldn’t play our DSD512 files. If these things aren’t important to you, than the Innous is a worth considering. But in our configuration, it was so close to the $2498 Roon Nucleus Plus, that it was literally indistinguishable when paired with the ProUSB. I have no doubt it is superior on other DAC’s feeding them straight via USB, but for our tests - going into the great equalizer - the ProUSB, it was too close to call.

Therefore, for all the reasons mentioned above, the #7 configuration (MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Roon Nucleus Plus with Keces P8, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC) was the overall winner.

NOTE: My Lumin U1 was not available for this test. I will be bringing it in and testing against the Roon Nucleus + shortly.

[Darryl R]

I’ve had the MSB ProUSB in the store for over a week now. This one was not a prototype, but rather a completed version and one which I purchased.

How does it compare? Like everything it comes down to personal preference. However, I thought it best to have a few customers over for the shootout.

We wanted to compare:

1. MSB Roon Renderer (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Renderer)
2. MSB Roon Renderer (from wall with CAT6 to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to Renderer)
3. MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Aurender, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC)
4. MSB ProUSB (from wall with CAT6 cable to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to AQ Diamond Ethernet to Aurender, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
5. MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Innous Statement - on demo/loan, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
6. MSB ProUSB (from wall with CAT6 cable to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to AQ Diamond Ethernet to Innous Statement, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
7. MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Roon Nucleus Plus with Keces P8, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
8. MSB ProUSB (from wall with CAT6 cable to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to AQ Diamond Ethernet to Roon Nucleus Plus with Keces P8, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).

At all times, the cables were:

- AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet
- Cheapo Cat 6 (when feeding the GigaFoil)
- AudioQuest Diamond USB
- Analysis Plus Power Cables on the MSB Select II DAC
- AQ Hurricane Source Cables on the various Music Server Transports.

Speakers for the Testing:

B&W 800D3’s with a pair of DB1D subs
Luxman M900u Monos
Luxman C900u Preamp
AQ Speaker Cables and IC’s

- We played an assortment of redbook, high res and DSD64, 256 and 512 files. No MQA as we were playing off the NAS at all times.

Phew!

Findings:

- We found the AQ Diamond with GigaFoil/Keces direct to the MSB Roon Renderer to be the most transparent, with the GigaFoil/Keces taking out some of the grunge in the upper registers.

- The ProUSB nullified the benefits of the GigaFoil/Keces P3. We could hear a big difference in configuration #1/#2, but not once we introduced the ProUSB (which converts USB to Fiber Optic - ProISL).

- However, it was unanimous that the #5 configuration sounded best overall, but finished second due to the reasons noted below. The Innous Statement had meat on the bones, without any noticeable loss in transparency, and sounded very analog. HOWEVER, two notes:

- The Roon Nucleus Plus in the #7 configuration was incredibly close to the Innous Statement - as in 99 vs 100. The Roon Nucleus Plus allows full NATIVE DSD and DSD512. This gave it the edge for our winner in the shootout.

- the Innous Statement is NOT capable of NATIVE DSD on any MSB DAC (via the ProUSB) and it DOES NOT play DSD256 or above on any DAC (limited to DSD128). This may not matter to some, but the NATIVE vs DoP was a big deciding factor, plus we couldn’t play our DSD512 files. If these things aren’t important to you, than the Innous is a worth considering. But in our configuration, it was so close to the $2498 Roon Nucleus Plus, that it was literally indistinguishable when paired with the ProUSB. I have no doubt it is superior on other DAC’s feeding them straight via USB, but for our tests - going into the great equalizer - the ProUSB, it was too close to call.

Therefore, for all the reasons mentioned above, the #7 configuration (MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Roon Nucleus Plus with Keces P8, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC) was the overall winner.

NOTE: My Lumin U1 was not available for this test. I will be bringing it in and testing against the Roon Nucleus + shortly.

Mike,

Thanks for a comprehensive review. I did not know about that limitation of the Innuos Statement Server. They went to such pains to tweak it (even I understand a customized motherboard), so this player/software limitation is a shame. I'm going to build my own new server with a high-end, 6-rail LPS, a faster processor (I think they use a Pentium), and whatever software I want.

[UltraFast69]

I’ve had the MSB ProUSB in the store for over a week now. This one was not a prototype, but rather a completed version and one which I purchased.

That’s a lot of work all the way around, thanks!


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[aKnyght]

question on the msb pro ISL input module:

is this module compatible with standard fiber networks? ...or, is there something proprietary which requires a special transceiver at the sending end?

couldn't find any further info on the msb website.

[Mike]

question on the msb pro ISL input module:

is this module compatible with standard fiber networks? ...or, is there something proprietary which requires a special transceiver at the sending end?

couldn't find any further info on the msb website.

Good question! I wondered the same thing and asked them. It is indeed proprietary.


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[aKnyght]

Good question! I wondered the same thing and asked them. It is indeed proprietary.

thanks!!...

just going to assume then it is not possible to generate the pro ISL optical signal with any hardware other than another msb pro ISL module or an msb pro adapter

[Alpinist]

Hello Pro USB users. I own the Select DAC and use the Renderer Version 2 with the Roon Nucleus Plus. Please convince me why I should invest in the Pro USB module, especially when the Roon volume control (On the IPad) doesn’t work with it.

[Mike]

Hello Pro USB users. I own the Select DAC and use the Renderer Version 2 with the Roon Nucleus Plus. Please convince me why I should invest in the Pro USB module, especially when the Roon volume control (On the IPad) doesn’t work with it.

If the Roon volume control (which you enjoy now with the Renderer) is important to you, than bypass the PROUSB. If you don't mind using the S2's remote, than the ProUSB (after 5 days of break in), has a fuller, smoother sound than the Roon Renderer module. HOWEVER, if you are after ultimate transparency, the Renderer, IMO, still wins. The ProUSB sounds like someone put one single 12AX7 tube in the mix. It has that kind of affect on the sound. Subtle, but noticeable.

I have to say, by playing around with the new Shunyata Sigma Ethernet cable, you can also change the sound of the Roon Renderer too to more closely match the ProUSB.

Again, we are talking about VERY subtle differences here.

[Kingsrule]

If the Roon volume control (which you enjoy now with the Renderer) is important to you, than bypass the PROUSB. If you don't mind using the S2's remote, than the ProUSB (after 5 days of break in), has a fuller, smoother sound than the Roon Renderer module. HOWEVER, if you are after ultimate transparency, the Renderer, IMO, still wins. The ProUSB sounds like someone put one single 12AX7 tube in the mix. It has that kind of affect on the sound. Subtle, but noticeable.

I have to say, by playing around with the new Shunyata Sigma Ethernet cable, you can also change the sound of the Roon Renderer too to more closely match the ProUSB.

Again, we are talking about VERY subtle differences here.

Renderer with or without Gigafoil?

[Mike]

Renderer with or without Gigafoil?

With definitely on my end. YMMV.


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[Kingsrule]

OK I just changed from PRO USB back to renderer w/Gigafoil....I'll let things settle/warm up for awhile before listening

[Mike]

OK I just changed from PRO USB back to renderer w/Gigafoil....I'll let things settle/warm up for awhile before listening

The Ethernet cable makes a big difference. Mike #2 loves the AQ Diamond. I love the weightiness and smoothness of the Shunyata Sigma. TOUGH call. We preferred both cables with the GigaFoil/Keces P3 rather than without.


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[Kingsrule]

How long for the Renderer and Gfoil to warm up?

[Mike]

Hour


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[Mike]

I’ve had the MSB ProUSB in the store for over a week now. This one was not a prototype, but rather a completed version and one which I purchased.

How does it compare? Like everything it comes down to personal preference. However, I thought it best to have a few customers over for the shootout.

We wanted to compare:

1. MSB Roon Renderer (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Renderer)
2. MSB Roon Renderer (from wall with CAT6 to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to Renderer)
3. MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Aurender, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC)
4. MSB ProUSB (from wall with CAT6 cable to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to AQ Diamond Ethernet to Aurender, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
5. MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Innous Statement - on demo/loan, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
6. MSB ProUSB (from wall with CAT6 cable to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to AQ Diamond Ethernet to Innous Statement, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
7. MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Roon Nucleus Plus with Keces P8, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).
8. MSB ProUSB (from wall with CAT6 cable to GigaFoil/Keces P3 to AQ Diamond Ethernet to Roon Nucleus Plus with Keces P8, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC).

At all times, the cables were:

- AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet
- Cheapo Cat 6 (when feeding the GigaFoil)
- AudioQuest Diamond USB
- Analysis Plus Power Cables on the MSB Select II DAC
- AQ Hurricane Source Cables on the various Music Server Transports.

Speakers for the Testing:

B&W 800D3’s with a pair of DB1D subs
Luxman M900u Monos
Luxman C900u Preamp
AQ Speaker Cables and IC’s

- We played an assortment of redbook, high res and DSD64, 256 and 512 files. No MQA as we were playing off the NAS at all times.

Phew!

Findings:

- We found the AQ Diamond with GigaFoil/Keces direct to the MSB Roon Renderer to be the most transparent, with the GigaFoil/Keces taking out some of the grunge in the upper registers.

- The ProUSB nullified the benefits of the GigaFoil/Keces P3. We could hear a big difference in configuration #1/#2, but not once we introduced the ProUSB (which converts USB to Fiber Optic - ProISL).

- However, it was unanimous that the #5 configuration sounded best overall, but finished second due to the reasons noted below. The Innous Statement had meat on the bones, without any noticeable loss in transparency, and sounded very analog. HOWEVER, two notes:

- The Roon Nucleus Plus in the #7 configuration was incredibly close to the Innous Statement - as in 99 vs 100. The Roon Nucleus Plus allows full NATIVE DSD and DSD512. This gave it the edge for our winner in the shootout.

- the Innous Statement is NOT capable of NATIVE DSD on any MSB DAC (via the ProUSB) and it DOES NOT play DSD256 or above on any DAC (limited to DSD128). This may not matter to some, but the NATIVE vs DoP was a big deciding factor, plus we couldn’t play our DSD512 files. If these things aren’t important to you, than the Innous is a worth considering. But in our configuration, it was so close to the $2498 Roon Nucleus Plus, that it was literally indistinguishable when paired with the ProUSB. I have no doubt it is superior on other DAC’s feeding them straight via USB, but for our tests - going into the great equalizer - the ProUSB, it was too close to call.

Therefore, for all the reasons mentioned above, the #7 configuration (MSB ProUSB (from wall w/AQ Diamond Ethernet to Roon Nucleus Plus with Keces P8, AQ Diamond USB to ProUSB, ProUSB via ProISL to ProISL module in the DAC) was the overall winner.

NOTE: My Lumin U1 was not available for this test. I will be bringing it in and testing against the Roon Nucleus + shortly.

Well, we can now declare a winner: AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet or Shunyata Sigma Ethernet depending on flavoring —> Lumin U1 —> AQ Diamond USB or Shunyata Sigma USB —> ProUSB —> ProISL.

The Lumin U1 was 3D to the extreme. Provided amazing focus. Transparent but musical. Dead quiet. Bass was excellent, deep and detailed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike Lavigne]

I just read the 44 posts here to try and understand the work that has been done. thanks to Mike and others for all the information. thought I would add my own experience.

it seems that the choice of server might be the dominant factor in where optimization of performance might be found with the MSB Select II. in my case I had the SGM 2015, and a month ago upgraded to the SGM Extreme. to begin with I was using the Renderer V2 and Ethernet copper. adding the Extreme was a huge step up in performance all around.

Emile (designer of the Extreme) encouraged me to try USB, to compare to the Renderer. so I did, using the Curious USB. this was very close, with a slight nod to the USB. it was a little more 'not there'. next I added the MSB Pro USB. now this was a significant step up. less processed, better bass, more separation in the soundstage. less digital. at this point I removed the Renderer module from the Select II. another small step up with a slightly lower noise floor.

next I replaced the Ethernet copper into the Extreme with SPF modules and 15m of single mode OS2 fibre to my upstairs gigaswitch which was another clear step up. lower noise, more vivid and improved bass.

next, convinced I'd found my long term interface, I splurged on a top flight USB cable, the Gobel USB. immediately the digital glare was gone. absent. of course, I never realized it was there until then. this was a big deal.

lastly I had my son install 32tb of PCIe drives inside my Extreme.....and Emile transferred all my 17tb of files from my NAS upstairs to now local drives inside the Extreme. this was almost as big as the Gobel USB addition and complimented the Gobel in how it sounds.

I'm now wondering if this can challenge my vinyl, and really enjoying what I'm hearing.

btw; I use Tidal and Qobuz with Roon and the upgrades all pushed the sound quality of those forward too, except the change to the PCIe drives which increased the margin of advantage to my files over the streaming. right now those files are crazy great sounding.

not sure any of my experience relates to the use of other servers, but figured it might have some relevance anyway.

[Kingsrule]

Mike L

Can you play DSD512 files with your current setup?

[Alpinist]

I just read the 44 posts here to try and understand the work that has been done. thanks to Mike and others for all the information. thought I would add my own experience.

it seems that the choice of server might be the dominant factor in where optimization of performance might be found with the MSB Select II. in my case I had the SGM 2015, and a month ago upgraded to the SGM Extreme. to begin with I was using the Renderer V2 and Ethernet copper. adding the Extreme was a huge step up in performance all around.

Emile (designer of the Extreme) encouraged me to try USB, to compare to the Renderer. so I did, using the Curious USB. this was very close, with a slight nod to the USB. it was a little more 'not there'. next I added the MSB Pro USB. now this was a significant step up. less processed, better bass, more separation in the soundstage. less digital. at this point I removed the Renderer module from the Select II. another small step up with a slightly lower noise floor.

next I replaced the Ethernet copper into the Extreme with SPF modules and 15m of single mode OS2 fibre to my upstairs gigaswitch which was another clear step up. lower noise, more vivid and improved bass.

next, convinced I'd found my long term interface, I splurged on a top flight USB cable, the Gobel USB. immediately the digital glare was gone. absent. of course, I never realized it was there until then. this was a big deal.

lastly I had my son install 32tb of PCIe drives inside my Extreme.....and Emile transferred all my 17tb of files from my NAS upstairs to now local drives inside the Extreme. this was almost as big as the Gobel USB addition and complimented the Gobel in how it sounds.

I'm now wondering if this can challenge my vinyl, and really enjoying what I'm hearing.

btw; I use Tidal and Qobuz with Roon and the upgrades all pushed the sound quality of those forward too, except the change to the PCIe drives which increased the margin of advantage to my files over the streaming. right now those files are crazy great sounding.

not sure any of my experience relates to the use of other servers, but figured it might have some relevance anyway.

Mike,

You’re an animal!! Well done!

Ken

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike L

Can you play DSD512 files with your current setup?

short answer--don't know.

i have no dsd512 files, but i have 60 or so 'Quad' dsd256 files. so not tried dsd512.

regarding dsd256 'Quad' files, Emile is playing around now with various approaches for these files; both staying in dsd, and up-sampling to 24/352. and we have done quite a bit of testing where i'm listening to changes and telling him how they sound in real time. him in The Netherlands, me near Seattle.

this process is not complete.

i suppose i need to get me some dsd512 to hear what is going on with them.

[KeithR]

Did you try a simple, isolated ethernet cable solution to the MSB renderer from the Innuos Statement? That's really how its designed to be used.