Q: Can anyone speak to the differences between LampizatOr GG and MSB Premier?

[Germanboxers]

Did you change from GG to Premier? If so, what drove this presumable upgrade for you? Was it the sound quality, convenience (i.e. no tubes, renderer input simplicity) or a combination of both? How are they different in sound quality?

I was considering upgrading to the GG2, but the comments from many recent MSB converts has me pausing before making a decision. Would any of you with knowledge of both lend your insights? Thanks!

Background: I upgraded from a Luxman DA6 to the GG a few years ago. It was the most significant upgrade in my 30 some years in this hobby. I’m using the Taktsuki 274B rectifier and KR 300B Balloon tubes. Prior to the Luxman I had an LIO-8 pro audio DAC, Berkeley original, and an Esoteric UX3 upgraded by Steve Huntley, among many others.

Audiopath starts with Roon and HQPlayer on my office PC, upsampling everything to DSD256, then sending to a CAPsv3 silent computer (NAA) powered by an Uptone Linear PS in my 23’x28’x10’ dedicated room. From there it goes to my GG via Lightspeed USB, then to ARC Ref5SE, then to ARC 75SE, then to Zu Definition Mk4.

[Golum]

I can't comment on your question as I did not hear both at the same time but as I have almost the same electronics as you do (Ref75, Ref6) I can definitely comment on the upgrade path which you had in your mind initially (GG1 to GG2 or even Pacific). I've made this move few months ago from GG1 to the latest iteration of GG2 and for my ears the increase in SQ is just amazing in all possible ways you can imagine. Tube set you have is great, but just adding KR242 or KR242RK or PX25 (just any of those) would make a very significant (positive) change in sound delivery vs 300b. As a last step, other USB cable can make a very noticeable difference (directly compared to Lightspeed which you have). All in all, as said, not really answering your question but rather giving perspective on your initial idea.

Cheers;
G

[Christophs]

Dear Porsche Fan

I totally concur with Golum about the upgrade from GG to GG2.
It is a very worthwile and yet rather affordable upgrade.
This GG2 upgrade brings you tonally closer to the Pacific DAC. The GG2 is closer to the Pacific DAC than it is to the GG1.

I also would strongly encourage you to try and buy the new Riccardo Kron KR 242 Output tubes.
Your Taka 274b recti is already excellent

In addition to that, you might also consider the Final Touch Audio Callisto USB cable. I
t is massively better sounding than my trusty Light Harmonic Lightspeed 10G (while the LH 10G was better than the rest I tried before, obviously because I bought the LH 10G).
My LH showed all other cables out the door, until I got the opportunity to try the FTA Callisto, which is a big step above the LH10G sonically.

I hope those informations are of use for you

[Germanboxers]

Thank you, Golum and Christophs. I appreciate your input on the GG2 and Callisto USB cable. I have no doubts that there is optimization available through either the GG2 and/or a different USB cable; however, I am most interested in the MSB Premier relative to the GG or GG2.

There is a great deal of buzz around the new offerings from MSB (same was/is true with the Lampizator products for good reason) and I want to explore the relative differences. The simplicity of operation is another element that makes the MSB appealing assuming, of course, that the MSB is equivalent to the GG2 in terms of "real musicians in space", fully fleshed out tonality, detail, and dynamics. My highest goal: a convincing illusion of being in the original space with real musicians. When that fails due to recording limitations...a reasonable illusion of musicians in my listening room. Rich tonality, "dense" images all serve those goals to some degree if the software is compliant.

P.S. Christoph, although I am a Porsche fan, my user name refers to my appreciation for german boxer dogs, particularly those of working bloodlines.

[Christophs]

Hi GB

Sorry for the misinterpretation of your moniker.

I hope Alrainbow can chime in, because he is very knowlegdable about Lampis anyways but also about msb as he owned the top of the heap msb DAC for several years himself and heard the Select 1 and 2 on several occasions.

PS: I would say you haven't heard your present GG the best it can Sound with those 300b tubes you use

[Germanboxers]

@Alrainbow, are you (or others) able to weigh in on my questions above?

Thanks,

Jordan

[Alrainbow]

Hello yes I can give you my views.
Can you pm me and we can talk or email.
I don't sell products or have affiliations either.
But i have owned both dacs and others

[Alrainbow]

I

Thank you, Golum and Christophs. I appreciate your input on the GG2 and Callisto USB cable. I have no doubts that there is optimization available through either the GG2 and/or a different USB cable; however, I am most interested in the MSB Premier relative to the GG or GG2.

There is a great deal of buzz around the new offerings from MSB (same was/is true with the Lampizator products for good reason) and I want to explore the relative differences. The simplicity of operation is another element that makes the MSB appealing assuming, of course, that the MSB is equivalent to the GG2 in terms of "real musicians in space", fully fleshed out tonality, detail, and dynamics. My highest goal: a convincing illusion of being in the original space with real musicians. When that fails due to recording limitations...a reasonable illusion of musicians in my listening room. Rich tonality, "dense" images all serve those goals to some degree if the software is compliant.

P.S. Christoph, although I am a Porsche fan, my user name refers to my appreciation for german boxer dogs, particularly those of working bloodlines.

Intesrd dogs at one point in my life
we still have one left. A MANCHESTER terrier female. We were going to get a German pincher too.

[Alrainbow]

I have in my place a new GG 2 to do a small review on for the forums.
Lets email

[Willco]

Hello yes I can give you my views.
Can you pm me and we can talk or email.
I don't sell products or have affiliations either.
But i have owned both dacs and others

Alrainbow, I'm sure many on the forum would be interested in your opinions, rather than restricting to a pm?

[asindc]

Alrainbow, I'm sure many on the forum would be interested in your opinions, rather than restricting to a pm?

+1

[Alrainbow]

Of course I'll share to all. But first I want a Simple conversation with out being a back and forth of others as these forums can be.
Im always honest if you read my posts here and else where.

[Germanboxers]

Well...Mike was kind enough to ship me his demo MSB Premier DAC so that I could actually compare it directly to my Lampizator Golden Gate. After a couple of hours of warm up on the first day I received it, I sat down for a listen. I was impressed by how tonally "dense" it was, especially being solid state, but after a few hours I felt some fatigue...usually a bad sign. I left it on for the next few days and popped down to my listening room for a few songs once in awhile just to get a fix during the busy week.

Saturday morning came and I was up early, espresso in hand, and in for some deep comparative listening. I prefer not to jump back and forth when I compare equipment since I tend to lose the "gestalt" of the sound of each, but I did have a good setup for that if/when I decided to do so. I have a capsv3 computer fed by a Uptone Audio LPS as NAA feeding the GG with the output of the DAC going to my ARC Ref5SE. Since I have multiple ethernet feeds, changing from the MSB to the GG was as simple as changing zones in Roon and changing the input on the preamp via remote.

A few hours of listening just to the MSB Premier confirmed that the extra time powered on eliminated the fatigue I felt shortly after receiving it. I could sink in and enjoy a wide range of music. My high level conclusion was that these two fight in the same weight class. Both allow me to "turn off" and enjoy the music.

After lunch I decided to do some head to head comparisons. After doing so, I do think the Premier is technically superior. It has better balance top to bottom for one, it reveals more low-level details like hall ambiance, it's a little "faster" in that it seems notes are more aligned, giving transients a bit more focus and snap. BUT, I don't really make decisions of this nature and magnitude on a balance sheet of technical merits. I have to "feel it" if that makes sense. And through Sat afternoon, I didn't "feel it". I vacillated between "just stick with what you have, you love it" and "this Premier is very good too, I could easily live with it (and love it) and it gets that computer out of the room".

After dinner with the wife Saturday night, I went back in for some more listening, but decided to try the MSB Premier direct to my ARC Ref75SE amp. I was very surprised that the sound quality did not take a step backward. In fact, it was hard to say the sound changed much at all. This has not been the case when I tried going direct with the Golden Gate in the past. So, I listened, and vacillated some more. By late evening I was leaning toward the Premier.

I woke up Sunday morning, listened some more, then fired off an e-mail to Mike and yada yada yada I'm sending back the Premier and buying an MSB Reference with Femto 77, render v2 and the preamp module!!! Yikes!! I felt it...and I decided to leave no question about my front end by buying the Reference. Strange how this hobby works, but I'm very excited to be able to simplify, having only two pieces of electronics in the room, not counting the the bluray and cable boxes. My wife will be able to use the room for music or movies whereas now she won't even try to use it given the complexity. And I will have my entire collection of music to rediscover!!!

MSB and Lampizator are truly State of the Art audio manufacturers. Adding the Golden Gate dac to my system 3 years ago was the single biggest/most important upgrade I had experienced in 30 years in this hobby. I'm excited about where the MSB Reference will bring me in my music enjoyment.

Thanks,

Jordan

[Christophs]

Well...Mike was kind enough to ship me his demo MSB Premier DAC so that I could actually compare it directly to my Lampizator Golden Gate. After a couple of hours of warm up on the first day I received it, I sat down for a listen. I was impressed by how tonally "dense" it was, especially being solid state, but after a few hours I felt some fatigue...usually a bad sign. I left it on for the next few days and popped down to my listening room for a few songs once in awhile just to get a fix during the busy week.

Saturday morning came and I was up early, espresso in hand, and in for some deep comparative listening. I prefer not to jump back and forth when I compare equipment since I tend to lose the "gestalt" of the sound of each, but I did have a good setup for that if/when I decided to do so. I have a capsv3 computer fed by a Uptone Audio LPS as NAA feeding the GG with the output of the DAC going to my ARC Ref5SE. Since I have multiple ethernet feeds, changing from the MSB to the GG was as simple as changing zones in Roon and changing the input on the preamp via remote.

A few hours of listening just to the MSB Premier confirmed that the extra time powered on eliminated the fatigue I felt shortly after receiving it. I could sink in and enjoy a wide range of music. My high level conclusion was that these two fight in the same weight class. Both allow me to "turn off" and enjoy the music.

After lunch I decided to do some head to head comparisons. After doing so, I do think the Premier is technically superior. It has better balance top to bottom for one, it reveals more low-level details like hall ambiance, it's a little "faster" in that it seems notes are more aligned, giving transients a bit more focus and snap. BUT, I don't really make decisions of this nature and magnitude on a balance sheet of technical merits. I have to "feel it" if that makes sense. And through Sat afternoon, I didn't "feel it". I vacillated between "just stick with what you have, you love it" and "this Premier is very good too, I could easily live with it (and love it) and it gets that computer out of the room".

After dinner with the wife Saturday night, I went back in for some more listening, but decided to try the MSB Premier direct to my ARC Ref75SE amp. I was very surprised that the sound quality did not take a step backward. In fact, it was hard to say the sound changed much at all. This has not been the case when I tried going direct with the Golden Gate in the past. So, I listened, and vacillated some more. By late evening I was leaning toward the Premier.

I woke up Sunday morning, listened some more, then fired off an e-mail to Mike and yada yada yada I'm sending back the Premier and buying an MSB Reference with Femto 77, render v2 and the preamp module!!! Yikes!! I felt it...and I decided to leave no question about my front end by buying the Reference. Strange how this hobby works, but I'm very excited to be able to simplify, having only two pieces of electronics in the room, not counting the the bluray and cable boxes. My wife will be able to use the room for music or movies whereas now she won't even try to use it given the complexity. And I will have my entire collection of music to rediscover!!!

MSB and Lampizator are truly State of the Art audio manufacturers. Adding the Golden Gate dac to my system 3 years ago was the single biggest/most important upgrade I had experienced in 30 years in this hobby. I'm excited about where the MSB Reference will bring me in my music enjoyment.

Hi Jordan

Congrats on the new aquisition
May I ask what tubes you used in the GG?

[Germanboxers]

Hi Jordan

Congrats on the new aquisition
May I ask what tubes you used in the GG?

Sure, Christophs.

I was not a serial tube roller, but I did experiment with quite a few before settling in on a combo that worked well in my system and to my ears. Just based on memory I have experimented with the following output tubes:
Elrog Original 300B - very nice, but unreliable!
Sophia Princess 300B - nice midrange, but soft on top and bottom.
Emission Labs 45 - balanced, but uninspiring if memory serves.
KR 300B Balloons - settled with these after acquiring the Takatsuki 274B rectifier
PSvane Western Electric replica 101D - detailed, but not my cup of tea otherwise.
PSvane ceramic base 101D - similar to WE101D above.
Takatsuki 274B - the best rectifier for me considering all qualities combined.
Philips 5Z4GY - cannot remember much about it, but I did like it over the more conventional 5UG/5R4 Shuguangs.
GEC U52/5U4G - a more vintage sound if my memory holds...liked it, but the Tak 274B gave more goodness overall and from top to bottom.

[Mike Lavigne]

2 years ago I had the GG 1.5, then listened to the Nagra HD and the first Aqua Formula, and overall preferred the Formula in my system. but in the back of my mind I was trying to reach the MSB Select II level for less money. later I did go from the Formula to the MSB Select II.

I can certainly relate to Jordan's experience and congratulate him on his choice of the Reference with the 33 Femto. the MSB is a dac that 'gets' the musical wholeness of the GG......along with lots more too. I loved the GG and GG1.5 in my system but my MSB is less in the way of the musical message......and compliments my particular system better.

[Christophs]

Sure, Christophs.

I was not a serial tube roller, but I did experiment with quite a few before settling in on a combo that worked well in my system and to my ears. Just based on memory I have experimented with the following output tubes:
Elrog Original 300B - very nice, but unreliable!
Sophia Princess 300B - nice midrange, but soft on top and bottom.
Emission Labs 45 - balanced, but uninspiring if memory serves.
KR 300B Balloons - settled with these after acquiring the Takatsuki 274B rectifier
PSvane Western Electric replica 101D - detailed, but not my cup of tea otherwise.
PSvane ceramic base 101D - similar to WE101D above.
Takatsuki 274B - the best rectifier for me considering all qualities combined.
Philips 5Z4GY - cannot remember much about it, but I did like it over the more conventional 5UG/5R4 Shuguangs.
GEC U52/5U4G - a more vintage sound if my memory holds...liked it, but the Tak 274B gave more goodness overall and from top to bottom.

Thank you Jordan
I wonder how it would have gone if you had a pair of RK series KR 242 or KR PX25 on hand for the compare.
I'm really not a fan of 300b tubes in the GG

[Germanboxers]

Thank you Jordan
I wonder how it would have gone if you had a pair of RK series KR 242 or KR PX25 on hand for the compare.
I'm really not a fan of 300b tubes in the GG

Given that I have high sensitivity speakers (Zu 101db/w) I didn't feel any lack of drive with 300B's if that is what you are concerned about, Christophs? I have also tried the KR PX4 that I did not mention and it did have more drive, but that was not/is not an issue to resolve in my system with my preferences. The 300B Balloons could boogy aplenty in my system.

Mike - you said succinctly what took me several paragraphs. Thanks for adding to this thread. I did follow your progression on here and WBF as you progressed through your digital front end. Given that you ended up with the Select II, I felt our paths were forever on different trajectories...yet ultimately I was wrong about that...at least in some degree. Damn Mike for being so kind to send me his Premier to audition!!!! LOL

[KeithR]

so when does the bad boy Ref dac land? So excited for you, Jordan!

[KeithR]

Mike- any updated comments on the Premier vs Ref as you've had significant time with them now?

[Germanboxers]

so when does the bad boy Ref dac land? So excited for you, Jordan!

Mike - said it would be around 4 weeks from order placement. It’s been 2 weeks...so halfway there unless it gets in sooner. One can hope! Seriously struggling to wait! Mike...have put the afterburners on!!

[Mike]

Mike- any updated comments on the Premier vs Ref as you've had significant time with them now?

Me? REF all the way. Base REF outperforms a pimped out Premier.

I just want to say, the Discrete with dual power supply ($1495 extra) is insanely good for the $$$. Basically at $13,500 it trumps many more expensive DAC’s. You know, the ones I keep taking in on trade!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike]

Mike - said it would be around 4 weeks from order placement. It’s been 2 weeks...so halfway there unless it gets in sooner. One can hope! Seriously struggling to wait! Mike...have put the afterburners on!!

Vrrrroooom!

MSB is busy as heck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alrainbow]

Does the man have a network input ?
Server option ?

[bzr]

Does the man have a network input ?
Server option ?

Renderer??

[Al M.]

Me? REF all the way. Base REF outperforms a pimped our Discrete.

I just want to say, the Discrete with dual power supply ($1495 extra) is insanely good for the $$$. Basically at $13,500 it trumps many more expensive DAC’s. You know, the ones I keep taking in on trade!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The question, Mike, was not about Discrete vs. Reference, but Premier vs. Reference.

[Mike]

The question, Mike, was not about Discrete vs. Reference, but Premier vs. Reference.

Yes, and I answered it. The Discrete was just a typo. Corrected above.

Mention of Discrete with dual power supply was just a sidebar.

[Germanboxers]

Does the man have a network input ?
Server option ?

Al, see the attached image to understand how my network is setup and how I plan to proceed. Looking for opinions on this in another thread as well.

With the GG in the system, I used the capsv3 computer as an NAA in the room and used my i7 desktop computer in the office to run roonserver and HQPlayer. Going forward, I plan to use the capsv3 computer in the utility room to run roonserver with music storage on a synology NAS in the same room.

The capsv3 is running W10 optimized with the audiophile optimizer. I also have a replacement SSD that has licensed W12 Server with AO, but I couldn't make that work reliably as an NAA so I switched to W10 w/AO instead. I may try W12 Server with roonserver at some point to see if it is better.

Also, the image below shows RCA from MSB Ref to ARC Ref75SE, it is actually balanced, not RCA

Audio Layout-4-1-2019.jpg

[Germanboxers]

I also have a TP Link optical ethernet isolator that can be used, but I would MUCH prefer that it not be in the music room. Will the receiver on this be able to drive the ~40-50ft of ethernet cable from the utility room to the music room? I was thinking something like switch->TPLink->40-50ft ethernet cable->MSB Ref as a possibility.

I could use the UPtone LPS 2nd feed to power the receiver end of the TPLink and a cheaper LPS for the sender side. The primary feed off the Uptone LPS will feed the capsv3 server.

[Al M.]

Yes, and I answered it. The Discrete was just a typo. Corrected above.

Mention of Discrete with dual power supply was just a sidebar.

Ok thanks, Mike.

[Alrainbow]

Al, see the attached image to understand how my network is setup and how I plan to proceed. Looking for opinions on this in another thread as well.

With the GG in the system, I used the capsv3 computer as an NAA in the room and used my i7 desktop computer in the office to run roonserver and HQPlayer. Going forward, I plan to use the capsv3 computer in the utility room to run roonserver with music storage on a synology NAS in the same room.

The capsv3 is running W10 optimized with the audiophile optimizer. I also have a replacement SSD that has licensed W12 Server with AO, but I couldn't make that work reliably as an NAA so I switched to W10 w/AO instead. I may try W12 Server with roonserver at some point to see if it is better.

Also, the image below shows RCA from MSB Ref to ARC Ref75SE, it is actually balanced, not RCA

Audio Layout-4-1-2019.jpg

ok I'm replying now I'm sorry for not dong it sooner. my life has been hell big time.

Before we go into networks let me reply on difference of Lampi and all of Msb.
I owned Msb dacs for years even had flagships for trials.
Way back when some 5 years ago Msb was clearly way ahead of the pack including Lampi that i owned back then as well.
Msb makes a good product pretty much free of issues when new or even second hand.
Every two years or so firmware updates improved there platform sound .
i owned two PSU as I had the 4 pic stack all loaded . The second PSU that was 6 k then had little impact other then to say and show I had it lol.
I was told and promised my Vince the UMT Plus would stream dsd128 this never happened .
in fact oppo who made it said it never would and did not know why Vince said it would .
Vince is. Very nice man , seems honest and Answers the phone himself. Something to be said for this and its a positive for me.
About 2 years back the new USB 2 that was really 3 was talked about . It was to do native Dsd not a deal breaker for me but cool. It also was to have two more very inportent details I wanted. After all this was a 3k upgrade . It was to do MQA yes MQA . Next and perhaps more important was it was to have the rebook filter . Now why is this inportmant ?
Well the dac v was a bust the sel 1 was too , does anyone own one ? Did they have to spend 10k to upgrade to a sel 2 ? The red book filter is paramount to owning an Msb dac . If not there is point owning it. Ps even after 3 k and new USB input . That did sound better . Still no red book. I was again promised by Vince that there is a new renderer it would do it lol .
The point is as good as Msb is there are always factors that effect big money purchases.
So I spent 40k 5 years ago it never did all it was to do .
Now why do I care well it's to keep this honest . The preamps I had in my Msb were very well made but as audio life shows itself it has become that a real active pre is best so save some money.
Now what's a Lampi compared to a Msb dac. Well this greAtly depends on who we ask . Since I owned both and multiples of each and build severs , have pretty ok setup to judge by. I am brutally honest be it good or bad period . I get bashed but it's ok I don't sell , I don't mAke a thing to be sold. I do consult , I do make servers for for friends . I do think short of the UMT,s dsd shortfall it was a very good steamer server. In fact it took me two years or more to catch much less surpass it. It played and found music any where. Did it almost perfect. No dac , server and digital is perfect period.
It was way above the streamer , sever of that time.
Now having said this the 5 Lampi dacs I owned were all very good and perfect yes perfect. But I also know of many not perfect ones to keep this honest . Some 3 years ago mYbe 4 years
I asked for a head dac it was to be for me period. It was made and again perfect but it did make 3 trips back to poland to be as I wanted it. Headphones have a very strict detail to adhere to. Lampi did not get this at first . When it was done Ina very timely fashion it then blew away my exp Msb lol. In fact the only two reasons I kept it we're for its UMT plus and it's pre amp. My dacs are always SE but I need BAL to long interconnects needed.
This led me to a new preamp over time . It did its Service well in going from SE to bal .

What a Lampi does and this is GG and up so its a TRP , GG2 , PAC I am posting about is this.
1- its staging is above any Msb dac I ever heard up to and including a sel 2 with its red book filter.

[Mike]

And of course, having owned every Lampi from Big 7 to GG to GG2 to Pacific, I don’t agree.

For me, the MSB’s current lineup is far and away the finest digital sources on the market. They are reliable and more analog sounding than any other DAC I’ve heard. They are modular based, handle MQA, integrate Roon, and present a variety of easily swappable options.

They place emphasis on ladder DAC’s, not chips, clocks, power supplies and much more.

And with the upgraded preamp modules, they are so good, that owning a preamp is merely an option, but certainly not required.

[Alrainbow]

Continued so a bud is in Europe gets to have in his room the Msb below the sel 2 , he calls me and says what the hell is it broken lol. Well in fairness it was new and did not have its server , so a cheap one there was used.
Now why is this inportmant to know , well in my view there are three levels of digital .
top tier can sound great on its own gas exp internal ways of making it be good from lesser sources this makes it worth the money to some
msb is one here.
mid tier can have a top tier sound at less then half to even one third but needs a good or great source to get there. All new Lampi dacs live here
bottom tier dacs that no matter whAt is done can't rise above its level at price point in sound

no no why do I feel Lampi belongs in top tier ?
it rolls tubes no dac made can change as it does. It is great but can you the last 15% by its virtue in rolling . No dac made does this.
It does dsd that sounds lime dsd where most all dacs including Msb don't .
It is a third of the rock for its flagship model so even if we add on a 7 k top model Server from Lampi being there sk or others it's still way below top tier prices.
I own a pac , I am buying a gg2 if it was not as I posted I would not be doing as I did.

Network next.

[Alrainbow]

And of course, having owned every Lampi from Big 7 to GG to GG2 to Pacific, I don’t agree.

For me, the MSB’s current lineup is far and away the finest digital sources on the market. They are reliable and more analog sounding than any other DAC I’ve heard. They are modular based, handle MQA, integrate Roon, and present a variety of easily swappable options.

They place emphasis on ladder DAC’s, not chips, clocks, power supplies and much more.

And with the upgraded preamp modules, they are so good, that owning a preamp is merely an option, but certainly not required.

I respect your views mike always. And yes you been to Lampi
and back.

[Alrainbow]

I'm printing out the network and I'll high lite and scan back nice plan pic

[wisnon]

And of course, having owned every Lampi from Big 7 to GG to GG2 to Pacific, I don’t agree.

For me, the MSB’s current lineup is far and away the finest digital sources on the market. They are reliable and more analog sounding than any other DAC I’ve heard. They are modular based, handle MQA, integrate Roon, and present a variety of easily swappable options.

They place emphasis on ladder DAC’s, not chips, clocks, power supplies and much more.

And with the upgraded preamp modules, they are so good, that owning a preamp is merely an option, but certainly not required.

I heard them and they are very good, but Lampis are much more analog to me and I guess that to each his own. The Sel 1 was a huge "Meh". The Sel2 is much better. The cost of MSB Dacs are very "tasty" now and I could never justify that.

This very thread us a mystery to me. The OP asks for a comparison between the GG1 and the Reference Dac. there is like £X price difference there. Given he has a Lampi and knows and likes the sound, it would be far more logical to compare the Ref to a GG2 or Pacific, if he had an upgrade itch. The GG 2 upgrade cost is a relative bargain. The Pac cost is just over half the Ref cost (I assume its circa $40K starting price). Pimped out fully, the Ref is significantly more than 2X the Pac.

Without even addressing preferences or what is better, I would have expected the OP to first investigate the higher Lampi models...especially since it took a while for the Ref to gain a decisive preference advantage to the "lowly" GG1.

However, since he has the budget, no one should begrudge his spending choices and I hope he remains happy with his choice for a long time.

[Mike]

I heard them and they are very good, but Lampis are much more analog to me and I guess that to each his own. The Sel 1 was a huge "Meh". The Sel2 is much better. The cost of MSB Dacs are very "tasty" now and I could never justify that.

This very thread us a mystery to me. The OP asks for a comparison between the GG1 and the Reference Dac. there is like £X price difference there. Given he has a Lampi and knows and likes the sound, it would be far more logical to compare the Ref to a GG2 or Pacific, if he had an upgrade itch. The GG 2 upgrade cost is a relative bargain. The Pac cost is just over half the Ref cost (I assume its circa $40K starting price). Pimped out fully, the Ref is significantly more than 2X the Pac.

Without even addressing preferences or what is better, I would have expected the OP to first investigate the higher Lampi models...especially since it took a while for the Ref to gain a decisive preference advantage to the "lowly" GG1.

However, since he has the budget, no one should begrudge his spending choices and I hope he remains happy with his choice for a long time.

I don’t agree. The MSB’s sound extremely analog, the most to me, and similar to my R2R. I think Mike L. would agree.

As for the customer, there was no comparison against even against the Premier I loaned him. He has wisely ordered a REF DAC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alrainbow]

Did he get to hear any new LAMPI dacs while I'm not objecting to choices I do of none were allowed to be heard.

[Alrainbow]

[Golum]

And of course, having owned every Lampi from Big 7 to GG to GG2 to Pacific, I don’t agree.

For me, the MSB’s current lineup is far and away the finest digital sources on the market. They are reliable and more analog sounding than any other DAC I’ve heard. They are modular based, handle MQA, integrate Roon, and present a variety of easily swappable options.

They place emphasis on ladder DAC’s, not chips, clocks, power supplies and much more.

And with the upgraded preamp modules, they are so good, that owning a preamp is merely an option, but certainly not required.

As this is a thread related to Lampi vs MSB I read what you wrote in a manner that MSB is reliable and Lampi is unreliable crap which at least for the last part I don't see like that having many Lampies in my own system and hearing even more of them in other systems. Sound wise we can as always debate what is better or worse in this hobby so in general I will not comment on this. But that you personally hosted the world premiere of Pacific DAC with nice presentation at your premises and being their dealer (seems to me you are not anymore) and now bashing the entire brand and calling them sublimely unreliable it's just not OK (in my book).
But we can also say also like this - Lampi is placing focus on sonicall involvement and engagement with musical material, allowing users to immerse into extremely musical presentation in realistic and euphonic way.
And BTW I've heard quite a few MSBs including Select 2 in several systems but to be fair also in mine and I've happily selected other option (more for less $)

[wisnon]

I don’t agree. The MSB’s sound extremely analog, the most to me, and similar to my R2R. I think Mike L. would agree.

As for the customer, there was no comparison against even against the Premier I loaned him. He has wisely ordered a REF DAC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would expect you to disagree. No biggie there, to each his own. Variety is the spice of life.
However, my main point remains about the OP. The process lacked a certain logic.

[Mike]

As this is a thread related to Lampi vs MSB I read what you wrote in a manner that MSB is reliable and Lampi is unreliable crap which at least for the last part I don't see like that having many Lampies in my own system and hearing even more of them in other systems. Sound wise we can as always debate what is better or worse in this hobby so in general I will not comment on this. But that you personally hosted the world premiere of Pacific DAC with nice presentation at your premises and being their dealer (seems to me you are not anymore) and now bashing the entire brand and calling them sublimely unreliable it's just not OK (in my book).
But we can also say also like this - Lampi is placing focus on sonicall involvement and engagement with musical material, allowing users to immerse into extremely musical presentation in realistic and euphonic way.
And BTW I've heard quite a few MSBs including Select 2 in several systems but to be fair also in mine and I've happily selected other option (more for less $)

I frankly don’t care what you think. I’m not bashing Lampi. I really like the guys. Really great guys.

I parted ways with them because EVERY SINGLE LAMPI PRODUCT (DAC’s and Amps) had problems and had to be repaired. That’s a fact. Even my Pacific broke and had to go back after I sold it. All of it became exhausting to me and my customers.

Even though the Lampi guys were terrific in handling repairs, it just became too much. I lost good friends and customers over it. Thats another fact. That’s why I talked to Fred in December and wished him the best, but I had to move on. No hard feelings. And as I said, they always handled any problems like champs.

When you’re on this side of things, your perspective might be a little different.

I know they are working hard on the issues above, and once rectified, we can get back to discussing the sound.

For now, I’m glad you’re enjoying your Lampi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alpinist]

T

I parted ways with them because EVERY SINGLE LAMPI PRODUCT (DAC’s and Amps) had problems and had to be repaired. That’s a fact. Even my Pacific broke and had to go back after I sold it. All of it became exhausting to me and my customers.

Even though the Lampi guys were terrific in handling repairs, it just became too much. I lost good friends and customers over it. Thats another fact. That’s why I talked to Fred in December and wished him the best, but I had to move on. No hard feelings. And as I said, they always handled any problems like champs.

When you’re on this side of things, your perspective might be a little different.

I know they are working hard on the issues above, and once rectified, we can get back to discussing the sound.

For now, I’m glad you’re enjoying your Lampi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mike,

It sounds like Lampizator is still having QA issues, which is something I had hoped they would grow out of. No sense in sweeping it under the rug if this is the case. Caveat Emptor.

Ken

[Golum]

I frankly don’t care what you think. I’m not bashing Lampi. I really like the guys. Really great guys.

I parted ways with them because EVERY SINGLE LAMPI PRODUCT (DAC’s and Amps) had problems and had to be repaired. That’s a fact. Even my Pacific broke and had to go back after I sold it. All of it became exhausting to me and my customers.

Even though the Lampi guys were terrific in handling repairs, it just became too much. I lost good friends and customers over it. Thats another fact. That’s why I talked to Fred in December and wished him the best, but I had to move on. No hard feelings. And as I said, they always handled any problems like champs.

When you’re on this side of things, your perspective might be a little different.

I know they are working hard on the issues above, and once rectified, we can get back to discussing the sound.

For now, I’m glad you’re enjoying your Lampi.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Problem is that you DO care what I or any other forum member say here, as this forum is a very nice marketing tool for certain brands in the "portfolio" admit it or not, or if others can see it or not.
Talking about reliability I can very easily claim that ARC gear is crap, as I had to take my Ref6 3 times to service center due to idiotic volume control unit (btw Ref6 has 1200h on it) and twice the Ref75 to the service center in last 12 months.
But hey, it sounds nice/great and i love it, so I will make an extra mile for it despite driving me crazy.

I'm also very glad that you are happy, both with the performance and reliability of MSB, as only if you feel like that you can sell many of those to your customers.
And yes, I love Lampi and I love the people behind it as they are phenomenal guys.

Have a great day!

P.S. I very much understand your perspective and your side of things

[Alrainbow]

This is one persons view so who makes perfect products ?
who has no support issues ?
In this industry there are plenty of closet items. I find it not fair to post as there is always more to any argument. How is it fAir to make a post to Compare a
4 year old product to a new one three times the price. This is not a setup ?
has any one posted of how much less an upgrade is on his gg dac ?
Has anyone posting heard any new LAMPI dacs ?
Has anyone posting mentioned how many times more the msb product is ?
I owned them I can post and I can say what I feel makes one better. And it's about sound and any msb can't change its sound not even a bit. Tube rolling can.
did anyone Comment on my red book filter
does this new exp msb have it ?
It's not fair to say one is better based on price alone but one still should consider it on a purchase. We are considering three to one on price and it's still ok ?

[Germanboxers]

I heard them and they are very good, but Lampis are much more analog to me and I guess that to each his own. The Sel 1 was a huge "Meh". The Sel2 is much better. The cost of MSB Dacs are very "tasty" now and I could never justify that.

This very thread us a mystery to me. The OP asks for a comparison between the GG1 and the Reference Dac. there is like £X price difference there. Given he has a Lampi and knows and likes the sound, it would be far more logical to compare the Ref to a GG2 or Pacific, if he had an upgrade itch. The GG 2 upgrade cost is a relative bargain. The Pac cost is just over half the Ref cost (I assume its circa $40K starting price). Pimped out fully, the Ref is significantly more than 2X the Pac.

Without even addressing preferences or what is better, I would have expected the OP to first investigate the higher Lampi models...especially since it took a while for the Ref to gain a decisive preference advantage to the "lowly" GG1.

However, since he has the budget, no one should begrudge his spending choices and I hope he remains happy with his choice for a long time.

First, to the bolded part: if you read the thread title, I was interested in comparisons between the GG and the Premier and that is what Mike sent me to compare.

As mentioned by me above, the GG was the single greatest upgrade I had made in my 30 years in this hobby. Just a list of dacs I've owned and lived with over those years: Theta Basic III, Theta Gen V, Audio Aero Capitole, Esoteric UX3 with Statement mod from Steve Huntely, Berkeley Alpha DAC, Metric Halo LIO-8 pro audio dac, Luxman DA6, Lampizator Big 7 (used), Lampizator Golden Gate. I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

I did not expect the MSB Premier to compete with my GG...seriously. Most of those dacs I've owned were good/better in some way to what I used just prior (not always), but most were also just "incremental". I would have to listen for a little while to determine differences and then a bit longer to determine preferences. The Big 7 and GG were MAJOR steps forward and noticeable immediately. The MSB Premier is incrementally better (to me) in many different areas, but it is incremental, not MAJOR. The key for me is that it didn't give up what the Lampi's brought to my room: organic, natural, cohesive, tonally dense, real-sounding music. The Premier just did those and more a little better.

Given he has a Lampi and knows and likes the sound, it would be far more logical to compare the Ref to a GG2 or Pacific, if he had an upgrade itch. The GG 2 upgrade cost is a relative bargain. The Pac cost is just over half the Ref cost (I assume its circa $40K starting price). Pimped out fully, the Ref is significantly more than 2X the Pac.

Secondly, I have investigated going balanced GG about 2 years ago. I received a demo used at one of the shows (can't remember) with the intention of buying it; however, it was all over the map. After about a week with it, I started to freak out about the mistake I had made. My SE GG with Dueland caps was just superior to me and the balanced GG with Mundorfs (I think) made all my albums sound really different, but not better. Fred was awesome and gave me a full refund minus shipping. Now, I have no idea if it was the balanced config, the mundorfs, or something else that so altered my experience with that Lampizator, but it confirmed for me that I must hear a significant component in my system before pulling the trigger.

Without even addressing preferences or what is better, I would have expected the OP to first investigate the higher Lampi models

Thirdly, or secondly continued, the start of this thread was exactly the first steps toward examining potential upgrades either within Lampi or (possibly) MSB. I had heard the Select II at Axpona a couple of years ago...sounded really good, but I can't tell a thing from an audio show...strange equipment, rooms, etc. My inclusion of the MSB was more based on what I had read than from that show. There is a great deal of enthusiasm surrounding these new releases and the Premier was of interest to me.

I did not investigate the possibility of auditioning a GG2 or a Pacific, though I would have tried at some point in this process if I had not enjoyed the Premier so much. From past experience, that would not have been so easy because I really don't like wasting dealers/importers time, or my own for that matter. I had already done this with Fred and although he was incredibly pleasant throughout, I felt badly that I had to return the unit. I would not do this again with Fred unless I had little doubt that I would follow through.

...especially since it took a while for the Ref to gain a decisive preference advantage to the "lowly" GG1.

I also wouldn't say it "took a while for the Premier to gain a decisive preference advantage to the 'lowly' GG1" The settling in time was predicted by Mike; it was nicely sorted in a couple of days, but my weekdays are very busy and are not a good time to compare equipment. I have a friend who only needs a very short time listening to a component to determine better/worse; I WISH I was that lucky! That Sat morning, I had to become familiar with the sound, to understand how it presents various instruments, recordings, etc. Jumping back and forth would have screwed with my ability to really understand that part of the Premier. For me it is more than better/worse, more like better/worse/preference/worth it...that takes time to reveal...in this case, a full day of listening.

[Mike]

Golum, you’re right that no brand is immune to problems, and if there is one, please let me know. . I cannot think of one. It might be a purple squirrel.

Let’s get back to focusing on sound! We can agree that Lampizator makes a fine sounding product and the guys are all terrific. I would argue the Golden Atlantic is the sleeper of the entire lineup and I still have a soft spot for the Big 7.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Germanboxers]

However, my main point remains about the OP. The process lacked a certain logic.

Please..."lacked a certain logic"? What does that even mean? Read my response just above for the "logic" in play. If you still find it lacking...well then, ask a specific question.

[Alrainbow]

Lets all agree to move on it does no one good on either side and not Right to mike on his place. I submit a bow out lol.
Mill be posting a marked up plan for data.

[Germanboxers]

Lets all agree to move on it does no one good on either side and not Right to mike on his place. I submit a bow out lol.
Mill be posting a marked up plan for data.

Thanks, Al. I know you have had a lot of experience on the server side of things. Would appreciate your input.