GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

[Ctsooner]

Guys, I’ve heard optical isolation since it became a thing. I fully understand what you are saying about saving money. I just want a simple all on one. They all have their own sound and I want to hear those differences. None of my local friends owns one. I just got off the phone with a close friend who has the Gigafoil for his top of the line VANDERSTEEN system. He said it was ok until it broke in. He said for the price it’s a no brained and he’s only using the iFi power supply I already have a top LPS I can power it with. I may just break down and get it next month. Thanks.

[MichaelsMinute]

Guys, I’ve heard optical isolation since it became a thing. I fully understand what you are saying about saving money. I just want a simple all on one. They all have their own sound and I want to hear those differences. None of my local friends owns one. I just got off the phone with a close friend who has the Gigafoil for his top of the line VANDERSTEEN system. He said it was ok until it broke in. He said for the price it’s a no brained and he’s only using the iFi power supply I already have a top LPS I can power it with. I may just break down and get it next month. Thanks.

If you are paying full retails for a new GF, I'd spend the bit extra and get the Waversa EXT-1. It requires no power supply and beat the GF. If you are getting a GF used, then you can't beat the value of the GF.

Link to Waversa: Waversa EXT Passive Digital Filters (USB & LAN Ethernet) | Kevalin Audio

[Ctsooner]

If you are paying full retails for a new GF, I'd spend the bit extra and get the Waversa EXT-1. It requires no power supply and beat the GF. If you are getting a GF used, then you can't beat the value of the GF.

Link to Waversa: Waversa EXT Passive Digital Filters (USB & LAN Ethernet) | Kevalin Audio

Thanks for that Michael. Do you own one? If so, which one? Did you hear the Gigafoil yet or any other optical converters? Funny as I was pretty friendly with John before he took on Allnic and Waversa. We were both just great audio fanatics. I remember it well when he took them on. I already reached out and said hello. I'll probably call him later today to catch up on life and talk about his filters. Pete

[MichaelsMinute]

Thanks for that Michael. Do you own one? If so, which one? Did you hear the Gigafoil yet or any other optical converters? Funny as I was pretty friendly with John before he took on Allnic and Waversa. We were both just great audio fanatics. I remember it well when he took them on. I already reached out and said hello. I'll probably call him later today to catch up on life and talk about his filters. Pete

Hey - I've got two different versions - the EXT -1 and the next step up. I compared them directly to the GF and they both beat the GF and the current sale price on the EXT 1 makes is a super deal.

Here is the review on it I did: Easy Great Sounding Hifi Streaming for your High End Audio & Stereo System! - YouTube

John is a great guy - be sure to tell him hello for me.

[vert]

I tried the Waversa filter and I remember it has a completely different sound than Gigafoil.

Only way to know is to try both.

But filters sound different than fiber.

Of course I wanted to keep the Waversa since it didn’t need a linear power supply.

But Gigafoil is still here and hasn’t gone anywhere.

[MichaelsMinute]

I tried the Waversa filter and I remember it has a completely different sound than Gigafoil.

Only way to know is to try both.

But filters sound different than fiber.

Of course I wanted to keep the Waversa since it didn’t need a linear power supply.

But Gigafoil is still here and hasn’t gone anywhere.

Interesting. How long did you let the Waversa burn in for?

Every system is different, but on my system it wasn't even close. The Waversa was superior to the GF.

[JCS123]

Hello, maybe someone here can help me. I bought a gigaFoil inline v4 and sadly it hasn't been an improvement in my system. Can anyone recommend an affordable linear PS that will improve the sound of the gigaFoil? I've heard ifi mentioned. Does anyone have experience with a particular PS of theirs (or anyone else's) that reveals the benefits of the gigaFoil and won't break the bank?

For the purposes of this conversation, I'd like to approach it as "with everything else being equal" - Only asking about the power supply specifically and not about cables, switches, power conditioners, tweaks, etc. And yes, I understand that this is subjective and system dependent, but I appreciate other peoples' experience and advice.

Thanks in advance!

[Mike]

Keces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[vert]

Interesting. How long did you let the Waversa burn in for?

Every system is different, but on my system it wasn't even close. The Waversa was superior to the GF.

I don’t quite remember now, but I had it for a week.

Gigafoil performance is so dependent upon the power supply and power conditioner.

Ethernet filters like the Waversa and Network Acoustics Eno/Muon have a particular sound.

[JCS123]

Keces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Mike, thank you and if I might ask, would the P6 be the model that you would recommend?

[Puma Cat]

Mike, thank you and if I might ask, would the P6 be the model that you would recommend?

Based on my ownership and experience with a Keces P3 since 2019, I personally cannot recommend a Keces power supply. I would recommend getting a Teddy Pardo or Farad, instead. I'm basing this recommendation on first-hand experience with a Keces P3. I used a Keces P3, which had dual rails for powering two devices, for my SOtM network bridge for over 3 years. When I would also use the other rail to power my EtherREGEN, I could clearly hear more grunge, grit, and grain using the P3 than when using the Uptone LPS-1.2 to power ER. Looking back on it, if I were to go back to a system using a network brige, or something like the Gigafoil, etc., I'd be looking at HDPlex (which are currently on back-order), Teddy Pardo, or Farad. I'm currently looking for an LPS to power Alita, Battle Angel (my Akasa-cased NUC Roon server), and Keces is not among the ones I'm looking at. Of course, YMMV, but my thought was some other VOC (Voice of the Customer) based on real-world, extensive, first-hand experience, might provide some context for your decision.

Just my 2¢. Cheers.

[MRJAZZ]

I have had good luck with several Keces LPS. Currently using a Keces P8 on a Intel NUC..... and with superb results.....

Cheers[ATTACH=CONFIG]32539

[JCS123]

Thanks, Puma and MRJAZZ. Your real world experience and evaluations are appreciated.

In reading further, the Sbooster keeps circling back in to the discussion. Wondering if that might be a good bet. I remember when I got my first LUMIN (D2), the dealer I bought it from recommended the Sbooster. I didn't get it because it requires opening the LUMIN and cutting a wire which would void the warranty. Hmmm... now that the warranty has run out on both my D2 and T2, I might try one for one of those units, but I digress...

But back to the gigaFoil - anyone with experience powering one with an Sbooster?

[MichaelsMinute]

Thanks, Puma and MRJAZZ. Your real world experience and evaluations are appreciated.

In reading further, the Sbooster keeps circling back in to the discussion. Wondering if that might be a good bet. I remember when I got my first LUMIN (D2), the dealer I bought it from recommended the Sbooster. I didn't get it because it requires opening the LUMIN and cutting a wire which would void the warranty. Hmmm... now that the warranty has run out on both my D2 and T2, I might try one for one of those units, but I digress...

But back to the gigaFoil - anyone with experience powering one with an Sbooster?

I am still really surprised it isn't sounding really good from the factory. Even in its stock condition it was a nice upgrade for me.

[JCS123]

I am still really surprised it isn't sounding really good from the factory. Even in its stock condition it was a nice upgrade for me.

+1 on the surprise. The rig was sounding good fed by ethernet from switch to T2. With the gigaFoil in place, I just haven't noticed anything getting better. I've tried Avanti Vivace from switch to gigaFoil and WW Starlight 8 from gF to LUMIN and the other way around without much difference. I believe they are both fine cables.

[Puma Cat]

+1 on the surprise. The rig was sounding good fed by ethernet from switch to T2. With the gigaFoil in place, I just haven't noticed anything getting better. I've tried Avanti Vivace from switch to gigaFoil and WW Starlight 8 from gF to LUMIN and the other way around without much difference. I believe they are both fine cables.

Okay, perhaps some technical background info would be helpul here to put things into context to help shape "domain understanding", as it were. The reason that placing or installing an "optical link" e.g. a Gigafoil, between say, a router or switch, and an endpoint, e.g. an upstream switch, network bridge, or streamer to improve audio quality is that many "consumer-grade" or "generic" networking devices are powered by very cheap, generic switch-mode power supplies. These generic power supplies put what is known as "low-source" and high-source" impedance leakage current onto networking cables, e.g. Ethernet cables, etc. This leakage current is actually AC, alternating current. The leakage current causes what is known as "threshold jitter', which is not the same as random jitter or deterministic jitter. The main problem that threshold jitter causes are timing errors, and our brains, which are quantum computers, are exquisitely sensitive to timing errors when listening to music; we can discern timing errors in the picosecond domain, which is why high-end digital audio devices must utilize femtoclocks.

What the optical transceivers are doing when they convert the eletrical signal to light, and then back to an electrical signal again to at the destination end. The reason that installing a "run of optical" mitigates this is because quite simply leakage current cannot pass as "light". There is nothing "magical" or "woo-woo" about these optical transceivers, they are standard networking product built to a consistent set of standards.. And this is why you don't need to buy a Gigafoil and LPS to implement a run of optical between a "dirty" switch or router and an audio networking endpoint. Exactly the same functionality can be obtained by using a couple FMCs (e.g. TP-link), some quality optical transceivers (e.g. Finisar or Planet Tech), a run of LC/LC optical fiber, and a coupla $12 Jameco Reliapro wall-wart style linear power supplies. Physics does not care one bit about WHO implements functionality (what we can in engineering, a transfer function), only HOW.

The reason that "audio grade" FMCs, e.g. those in the Sonore OpticalModule Deluxe, and switches e.g. EtherREGEN, SOtM sNH-10G, Melco, etc., produce higher audio quality than "generic" FMCs is they have better RJ45 jacks with better quality isolation transformers and better quality clocks. The better quality clocks also reduce phase noise, which our hearing is also very sensitive to.

Now, coming back to your setup, if I were to hypothesize, it's your Lumin T2 that is mitigating or attenuating noise, threshold jitter, timing errors, or phase noise from the switch. Lumin is really good at this; I've been very impressed with how thoroughly Lumin thinks things through and then implements effective designs and functionality. For example, they very likely are using a very high-quality RJ45 jacks with quality isolation transformers and a very good clocking system in the T2. These solid design factors and engineering solutions likely explain why you're getting such good results with your setup from the switch to your T2.

[mep]

We now have audiophile grade impedance leakage diapers to stop impedance leakage.

[Puma Cat]

+1 on the surprise. The rig was sounding good fed by ethernet from switch to T2. With the gigaFoil in place, I just haven't noticed anything getting better. I've tried Avanti Vivace from switch to gigaFoil and WW Starlight 8 from gF to LUMIN and the other way around without much difference. I believe they are both fine cables.

BTW, JCS, when I was implementing my original streaming setup using an EtherREGEN and a network bridge, I conducted what is known as a competitive benchmarking, testing quite a few Ethernet cables in my setup, including WW Startlight Cat 8. If you'd like some more info about that study, just send me a PM, I can provide you with info on my findings. Cheers.

[thyname]

Apologies if this post of mine offends someone, but I felt I need to chime in. I have been there, done that, all things you can think of, filters, fiber “boxes”, Ethernet switches… By far, the best are these:

https://www.networkacoustics.com/pro...aming-systems/

And, you don’t need any power supply. They are passive

I hope this does not offend anyone. Mike: please feel free to delete if inappropriate. Just sharing my own hands on experiences

[Puma Cat]

Apologies if this post of mine offends someone, but I felt I need to chime in. I have been there, done that, all things you can think of, filters, fiber “boxes”, Ethernet switches… By far, the best are these:

Streaming Systems – Network Acoustics

And, you don’t need any power supply. They are passive

I hope this does not offend anyone. Mike: please feel free to delete if inappropriate. Just sharing my own hands on experiences

Yes, I've heard good things about these as well. Hans Beekhuizen has reviewed them very favorably, and IIRC, uses them in at least one of his set-ups.

[thyname]

Yes, I've heard good things about these as well. Hans Beekhuizen has reviewed them very favorably, and IIRC, uses them in at least one of his set-ups.

I would be curious if you are able to try the Muon PRO (or the Muon, if gigabit is not possible). When you speak, I listen.

[Puma Cat]

I would be curious if you are able to try the Muon PRO (or the Muon, if gigabit is not possible). When you speak, I listen.

I haven't had the opportunity to evaluate one, but I would like to. I'll check into getting one in for review. I'd have to figure out where best to use it because I presently only need two Ethernet cables, one from the ATT U-verse's Pace router to ER, and one from Alita, Battle Angel (nickname for my very impressive Akasa-cased Intel NUC music server) to ER. And if I were to use one, my thought is it would be best utilized between the Pace Router and ER.

Something I've consistently observed was connecting the the Pace router's (which I'm sure is quite a "dirty" source) Ethernet cable onto the opposite side of ER that Alita's Ethernet cable is connected to really provided the best performance. My guess is this because John Swenson's "moat" design in ER keeps crap from the grungy Pace router from getting to A-side. So, in my setup, I have the Pace router's Ethernet cable going in to B-side of ER, and the Ethernet cable from Alita going into A-side of ER. The single-mode LC/LC fiber cable then runs out of ER's A-side to the Lumin P1 using 1310 nM Planet Tech SFPs.

Putting the Muon between the Pace router and B-side of ER might provide another improvement in audio quality.

[JCS123]

Now, coming back to your setup, if I were to hypothesize, it's your Lumin T2 that is mitigating or attenuating noise, threshold jitter, timing errors, or phase noise from the switch. Lumin is really good at this; I've been very impressed with how thoroughly Lumin thinks things through and then implements effective designs and functionality. For example, they very likely are using a very high-quality RJ45 jacks with quality isolation transformers and a very good clocking system in the T2. These solid design factors and engineering solutions likely explain why you're getting such good results with your setup from the switch to your T2.

Puma, thanks for the explanation. I think you're on to something here. I am very happy with the LUMIN (both LUMINs actually, as the D2 is a wonderful product at a more affordable price point, so good in fact that when I moved up to the T2 I decided to keep it).

My next move will be removing the GF and seeing whether I prefer the sound of the WW Starlight 8 or the Avanti Vivace cable from switch to T2. This will be interesting, as I like both cables very much.

Your help is appreciated!

[MichaelsMinute]

My next move will be removing the GF and seeing whether I prefer the sound of the WW Starlight 8 or the Avanti Vivace cable from switch to T2. This will be interesting, as I like both cables very much.

That will be interesting. They are both EXCELLENT cables with a different sound and presentation. The Avanti is an excellent cable for sure.

[JCS123]

Apologies if this post of mine offends someone, but I felt I need to chime in. I have been there, done that, all things you can think of, filters, fiber “boxes”, Ethernet switches… By far, the best are these:

https://www.networkacoustics.com/pro...aming-systems/

And, you don’t need any power supply. They are passive

I hope this does not offend anyone. Mike: please feel free to delete if inappropriate. Just sharing my own hands on experiences

Thyname, the link brings up the muon pro and the eno. Do you have experience with both?

[thyname]

Thyname, the link brings up the muon pro and the eno. Do you have experience with both?

These are the only current ethernet filters (systems, once you buy the detachable RJ45 cable) available. It used to be the "regular" muon (not PRO) a bit earlier, and several versions of the ENO. In terms of me, I only own (and use) the Muon PRO system. I resisted for a while buying any NA filters, until I did when the Muon PRO came out (my digital path is all gigabit, from provider to equipment), and I am glad I did. I have no other experience with Network Acoustics, other than the Muon USB cable (which I bought after the Muon PRO system).

[JCS123]

These are the only current ethernet filters (systems, once you buy the detachable RJ45 cable) available. It used to be the "regular" muon (not PRO) a bit earlier, and several versions of the ENO. In terms of me, I only own (and use) the Muon PRO system. I resisted for a while buying any NA filters, until I did when the Muon PRO came out (my digital path is all gigabit, from provider to equipment), and I am glad I did. I have no other experience with Network Acoustics, other than the Muon USB cable (which I bought after the Muon PRO system).

Thanks, I appreciate the context. The origin of the muon pro as a solution for studio/mastering applications, along with the glowing reviews that I've seen on it, make it something I'd really like to hear. I could be wrong, but I think I can recall one reviewer being very impressed with the cable itself and opining that it probably has a lot to do with the performance of the complete muon pro system.

The "beer-budget" guy that I am means that I am also intrigued by the eno... but since I have gigabit fiber everywhere else I would probably lean toward the muon pro.

[Gene15352]

Spoke to Vince Galbo at Axpona in the MSB room. The room sounded very, very impressive! Vince had a lot of input on the newly released GigaFoil, now called the ACTIV AUDIO, and it was being used in the audio set up. He recommended Cat 6 going into the unit, and CAT 7 going out, with at least 3 feet away from your streamer or ethernet switch. My only concern is the GigaFoil is now $2000, not including an added power supply! I think it has a clock inside as well. Would a fibre optical isolator or ethernet switch do the same thing as the Gigafoil?
Streaming Audio EMI Filter - EMI/RFI Filter for 10/100 and Gigabit Ethernet

[Bones13]

Spoke to Vince Galbo at Axpona in the MSB room. The room sounded very, very impressive! Vince had a lot of input on the newly released GigaFoil, now called the ACTIV AUDIO, and it was being used in the audio set up. He recommended Cat 6 going into the unit, and CAT 7 going out, with at least 3 feet away from your streamer or ethernet switch. My only concern is the GigaFoil is now $2000, not including an added power supply! I think it has a clock inside as well. Would a fibre optical isolator or ethernet switch do the same thing as the Gigafoil?
Streaming Audio EMI Filter - EMI/RFI Filter for 10/100 and Gigabit Ethernet

Thanks for that report. Was there a Digital Director in that setup? Vince, and the MSB guys are very scientific, and pragmatic, in approaching issues like this. But 2k + appropriate 12v LPS is a pretty big nut to consider with my Digital Director in charge of correcting the digital stream. I was actually going to test whether the etherRegen is necessary now, in my system. Trying to lower box coun, and complexity in my system.

[Puma Cat]

Would a fibre optical isolator or ethernet switch do the same thing as the Gigafoil?

Yes.

As with any configuration, it depends on the components used and their set-up.

For a lot less expenditure, installing a run of optical fiber in-between your "upstream" router & music server and "downstream" network bridge or streamer, and connected at each end with FMCs (Fiber Media Convertors) using optical transceivers will provide the exactly the same functionality as a GigaFoil, and notably improve audio quality in the same manner (from a Physics-based "transfer function" perspective).

As shown:


You can use generic (e.g., TP-Link, Netgear, etc) FMCs but the Sonore OpticalModule Deluxe FMC (OMD) is much better as it has LC/LC optical fiber SFP cage, and a much better master (word) clock than the generic FMCs, as well as subsystems and internal configuration designed to lower the impact of various classes of "digital-derived" noise, and it's affordable at $499. It was designed by the designer of EtherREGEN, John Swenson, who worked as a professional Ethernet EE at Broadcom and Cisco his entire career, and designed OMD.

Link to OM-Deluxe: Sonore - opticalModule Deluxe

You could use a generic FMC at the upstream end and the OM-D at the downstream end, or for better performance, use an OM-D at both ends, which would still be 1/2 the cost of GigaFoil. Then just run Ethernet cable to your network bridge or streamer.

A lot folks also use an EtherREGEN Ethernet switch, which also has an SFP cage in it and provides the same FMC functionality, but provides for more flexibility for "networked audio" set-ups. Here's a pic showing that setup, where OM is the upstream FMC and ER is the downstream FMC.
That's set-up I've used for over 5 years and it's worked really well.


Note: You don't have to use ER in this setup, though, you could just use another OM-D.

The key point is you don't have to use a GigaFOIL to obtain the benefits of optical networking, there are a number of other solutions designed specifically for high-end audio that provide the exactly the same functionality for less expenditure.

I have a lot of experience using optical networking for high-end audio setup, so if you have any other questions, just let me know. Happy to help out any way I can.

Cheers.

[Gene15352]

Yes, the Digital Director was used in that setup with MSB monoblocks, and Magico M2's.