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Thread: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
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January 18, 2019, 02:46 PM #1
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Thoughts on Diminishing returns
My position is diminishing returns can apply in some circumstances but not a blanket or across the board statement based on an arbitrary price point..
I find often times the term is used on forums to justify ones reason to stick with what they have or in an attempt to make others look foolish for having expensive higher end gear. I don't recall anyone here doing that. Of course, most here have high end gear, LOL
Maybe it's not so much diminishing returns as people may spend a bit more money but actually be making more of a lateral move.
What brings this to my mind is a recent upgrade. I was given a good deal on a demo 526 preamp with DAC. I was allowed to try it in my system. When I did, I instantly felt I had entered a new realm of hi fi. Before commiting I went through an exhaustive exercise of putting amps in and out of my system, trying different combinations to actually create a diminishing return. I could not. The 526 retail is twice the retail of the Pass XP10 and Hegel HD30 and the 526 was obviously better, no matter which amp I used with the Pass/Hegel. Even with the 512 into the XP10, which is somewhat dispreportioned based on retail pricing, I wasn't able to create what I'd call a diminishing return.
"Diminishing returns" is subjective, no way to measure it. I suppose it's up to the individual to decide whether a unit is worth twice the price tag. How would you measure twice as good? Is it at the point of an easily noticeable improvement?
Either way bashing high end or claiming a blanket diminishing return, like anything over $5k, or whatever monetary point you feel diminishing returns would kick in, is not correct. IMO.
Not only is this subjective, I'm also speaking in general terms as there's always an exception, like a value priced over achiever. I feel it's important for audiophiles, especially newer, to understand that there is higher performance as the price goes up. Like anything debateable, hear for yourself, then, form your opinion.Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
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January 18, 2019, 03:14 PM #2
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Interesting topic. The point of diminishing returns in this hobby is no doubt personal and subjective and probably depends a lot in monetary terms on what we've already invested in our systems. I think sometimes we may 'justify' a component that delivers a different (but not necessarily better) sound, e.g., maybe we've just grown tired of what we have! A couple of approaches that may help in avoiding buyer's remorse: try the new thing in your own environment before buying... and have some goals in mind early in the process (e.g., what characteristics of my system's sound am I trying to change/improve and how much am I willing to spend).
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January 18, 2019, 03:39 PM #3
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
If it sounds better even just slightly and it is worth it to you then why not buy it if you can afford it.
I agree, there are a lot of people that have lesser gear and I suspect out of jealously, they try and make you look foolish. I see it all the time on other forums. I got lambasted on the AC forum when I received a pair of Spatial Audio M3 speakers and compared them head to head with my Magnepans. I reported that the Maggies sounded much better in my system. I had friends come over and they said the same thing and how disappointing the M3's were. People were trashing my Maggies and me lol.
Bryan, congrats on the new Levinson!My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Cables-WW Platinum 7 USB, Cardas Parsec XLR, AQ Columbia DBS 72v XLR, Belden 8402 XLR.
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January 18, 2019, 04:10 PM #4
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Great topic! One point to add is that "diminishing" still usually means "better"... even if only slightly better. Yes, there is gear out there that is 2x or 3x or 4x the price of whatever unit you are comparing to, and sometimes the price has nothing to do with quality of sound (or even quality in general). This is a tough part about the hobby... You can't really tell by looking. YOUR ear hears things differently from others and you need to make your own choices. Still, the education from forums like this one can absolutely help inform your decisions... If you LISTEN to the right people. ha!
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January 18, 2019, 05:37 PM #5
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
lets not forget ones almighty ego plays a part in this as well .........
Cheers ! …. Dave
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January 18, 2019, 10:29 PM #6
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Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
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January 19, 2019, 04:20 AM #7
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Good topic. It really is subjective. My upgrade to Reference 3A Reflector monitors from Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE monitors (price $ 12K vs. 3K), as well as changing my amp to an Octave RE 320, has vastly improved, and made much more believable, the reproduction of string quartets, which greatly depends on the capable rendition of subtle micro-detail. On my system this reproduction is as good and convincing as I have ever heard. On all other music, from jazz rock over piano to orchestral, there are also significant and to me important improvements, but I would not rate them quite to be as spectacular as on string quartets, the convincing reproduction of which is dear to my heart.
So it also depends on the music you are playing, and on your sonic priorities, just how much of a difference it makes. Of course, to someone else an upgrade like mine might be just as significant for other reasons.
In any case, to me the upgrade certainly was anything but a case of "diminishing returns".Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave
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January 19, 2019, 10:59 AM #8
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables
HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
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Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
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January 19, 2019, 11:34 AM #9
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
I think the law of diminishing returns for audio is primarily to show that increases in spending on your system aren't linear with regards to the sound quality increasing. For instance, if you started off with a $5k system and you replaced it with a $10k system, your sound quality is not going to increase by 2x. And this doesn't take into consideration the money you would lose from selling your $5k system in order to purchase your $10k system. The higher the value of the gear in your system, the less linear the increases in spending become with regards to the potential increase in sound quality. It doesn't mean you can't buy meaningful improvements to your system, its just that meaningful improvements become much more expensive.
The other side of this is that without careful system matching, you can easily buy much more expensive gear that is a lateral move or a backwards move in sound quality which is an expensive lesson to learn.Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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January 19, 2019, 11:37 AM #10
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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January 19, 2019, 11:41 AM #11Jim
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January 19, 2019, 02:28 PM #12
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
No, but that is not the right question to ask.
My Schiit Vidar amp makes pretty good music, even though it cannot compete with my Octave RE 320 amp. It costs $ 700. But does it make much better music than my $ 65 Chinese class D amp that I once bought from Amazon for speaker break in? I don't think it's even twice as good, but it cost > 10 times more! It's not that the Schiit Vidar is bad -- it is well regarded in its price bracket -- but that little $ 65 class D amp is embarrassingly good. So if you just go by music per dollar, even in the $ 700 price class you go by diminishing returns. My stock car radio also makes music, but does a $3,000 stereo make 15 times more music?
Not really. You see, the music per dollar argument simply doesn't work.
For my situation, the better question to ask would be if I got a subjectively spectacular upgrade for, in my terms, a still very reasonable amount of money? And did I get that upgrade on much cheaper terms than in a different system context that would not be as tailor made for me? To all that I say emphatically, yes! And as such I don't think "diminishing returns" really applies in any meaningful way.Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave
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January 19, 2019, 02:34 PM #13
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
As far as linearity, how do you know? Just because in your judgment, you, don't think there's twice the difference, the next guy might feel it is twice the difference.
I can give you two examples, of IMO, there's twice the difference at near twice the price; the Hegel 590 is easily twice better than the 360, and, the Levinson 526 at $20k with phono stage and DAC, is easily better than the 326s straight stereo preamp at $10k. Not only is it a much better value due to those phono/DAC features, it's a better preamp section.
I agree that may not always be the case.
Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
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January 19, 2019, 02:40 PM #14
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
[QUOTE=Al M.;259925]No, but that is not the right question to ask.
My Schiit Vidar amp makes pretty good music, even though it cannot compete with my Octave RE 320 amp. It costs $ 700. But does it make much better music than my $ 65 Chinese class D amp that I once bought from Amazon for speaker break in? I don't think it's even twice as good, but it cost > 10 times more! It's not that the Schiit Vidar is bad -- it is well regarded in its price bracket -- but that little $ 65 class D amp is embarrassingly good. So if you just go by music per dollar, even in the $ 700 price class you go by diminishing returns. My stock car radio also makes music, but does a $3,000 stereo make 15 times more music?
Not really. You see, the music per dollar argument simply doesn't work.
etMaybe I'm not understanding, but, I think you just said the same thing as Mep, just in different words.Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
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HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
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January 19, 2019, 02:54 PM #15
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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January 19, 2019, 02:56 PM #16
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Perhaps I did, but in the last paragraph of my post (that you didn't quote) I argued for why I think the "diminishing returns" argument is on shaky ground and doesn't really apply to my upgrade.
Also, since the non-linearity of gain per price already starts at an extremely low price level, as I pointed out, the music per dollar argument is already doomed to an ad absurdum early on, before it even applies to what we call High End.
And if the music per dollar argument is absurd, how meaningful then is an argument of "diminishing returns" as it is usually presented?Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave
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January 19, 2019, 03:12 PM #17
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Well I hope the big spenders don't stop their obsession. I don't mind picking up yesterday's big thing for 50% less on the used market
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January 19, 2019, 03:57 PM #18
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
just the fact that the word 'subjective' has been used in many of the responses is but one way that ones ego can influence. trying to out-do the next person buy spending more, not necessarily achieving 'better' yet satisfying your ego. Our egos are fed and satisfied in different ways .......
Cheers ! …. Dave
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January 19, 2019, 04:52 PM #19
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables
HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
SVS PC13 Ultra
Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
Parasound P6, MBL 8006b, Artisan speakers/subwoofer
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January 19, 2019, 05:30 PM #20
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
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January 19, 2019, 06:39 PM #21
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
This thread is limiting returns to money. The return from a high end audio system is primarily intangible.
But yes, hifi and nearly everything else in the world has diminishing returns.
I have sex with the most beautiful woman in the world. The first time is more rewarding than the 1000th.
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January 19, 2019, 08:20 PM #22
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
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January 19, 2019, 08:55 PM #23
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
I am not sure that you can put a number as to how many times a system sounds better. Does any one know what 2x, 3x, 5x, 10x sounds like? It is all subjective. You can't quantify it. I can see terms like it is slightly better, moderately better greatly better or what ever term you want to use.
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January 19, 2019, 09:00 PM #24
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Synology 1019D+ - SGC Sonictransporter I9 w Roon/HQ Player- UltraRendu- PBD Stream IF to Playback Designs MPS5 via fiber optic - ARC 40th Anniversary Pre - ARC 610 T's - Martin Logan CLX's - 4 Martin Logan Depth i Subs - Shunyata Hydra, DIY PCOCC interconnects, speaker cables and power cords with Furutech terminations. Blue Jeans CAT 6's. Acoustically treated room with one permanent chair.
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January 19, 2019, 09:43 PM #25
Thoughts on Diminishing returns
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January 19, 2019, 10:32 PM #26
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables
HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
SVS PC13 Ultra
Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
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January 19, 2019, 11:34 PM #27
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January 20, 2019, 11:05 AM #28
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Having always been a frugal, value oriented type of guy "diminishing returns" was a major factor in any purchase. That said, as time goes on the fine line of diminishing returns is continually re-defining itself; be it audio equipment, food or lawn mowers.
AKA J2Ordan
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January 20, 2019, 11:17 AM #29
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
My thoughts on diminishing returns are rapidly diminishing
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January 20, 2019, 11:21 AM #30
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
In other words, when is good enough, good enough?
For someone like myself who is now soundly in the “it all matters” camp, the bar for diminishing returns is pretty high. But just like consumers, dealers also have to look at this proposition on a daily basis.My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
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January 20, 2019, 02:41 PM #31
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
If room acoustics and speaker setup are not properly addressed, at some point any 'upgrade' becomes a mere lateral move.
To paraphrase Art Noxon from ASC (the tube trap company): if you don't take steps towards proper room treatment, your room acoustics may at some point be so limiting that true improvement of sound through gear upgrades cannot be achieved anymore, and the audiophile is left with each upgrade being just something different, another flavor, but never an actual step forward in sound.
From my own personal experience on work to improve my room acoustics, I agree with that opinion.
Granted, there may be the exceptional room where no or just marginal treatment is needed. Much more likely though is if an audiophile doesn't perform serious room treatment, he may never realize even half of the potential his gear is really capable of.Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave
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January 20, 2019, 03:25 PM #32
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables
HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
SVS PC13 Ultra
Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
Parasound P6, MBL 8006b, Artisan speakers/subwoofer
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January 21, 2019, 06:24 AM #33
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Pre amp: Ocatve Phono Module Power amps: Octave MRE130 Turntable: SAC Girati Grande. Tonearm: Dynavector 507mkII Cartridge: Dynavector Ikeda 9TT Streamer: Aurender A10 Power Distributor: Anzus Mains D8 Speakers: Raidho X-3 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 XLR Interlink: Ansuz A2, [B]XLR Interlink: [B]Phono interlink: Cammino Serie 1.0 - PH 1.0s Power cables: Anzus Mains Ceramic, two Pom, Aluminium, X series Audio Rack: Rack of Silence 4 and 2.
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January 21, 2019, 11:33 AM #34
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January 24, 2019, 03:49 AM #35
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January 24, 2019, 04:44 AM #36
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Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Pre amp: Ocatve Phono Module Power amps: Octave MRE130 Turntable: SAC Girati Grande. Tonearm: Dynavector 507mkII Cartridge: Dynavector Ikeda 9TT Streamer: Aurender A10 Power Distributor: Anzus Mains D8 Speakers: Raidho X-3 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 XLR Interlink: Ansuz A2, [B]XLR Interlink: [B]Phono interlink: Cammino Serie 1.0 - PH 1.0s Power cables: Anzus Mains Ceramic, two Pom, Aluminium, X series Audio Rack: Rack of Silence 4 and 2.
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May 20, 2021, 01:37 PM #37
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May 20, 2021, 01:38 PM #38
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- May 2021
- Location
- United States
- Posts
- 2
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
My wife and I bought our current house in 2001, my system is in the living room as well.
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May 20, 2021, 03:40 PM #39
Re: Thoughts on Diminishing returns
Welcome to AS OT!
_______________
Mike
Amplification: MBL 6010D, MBL 9008A Monos
Analog: Kuzma R, Kuzma 4Point (11”), MSL Ultra Eminent EX
Phono Pre: Pass XP-27
Digital: Esoteric N01XD Esoteric K05
Speakers: MBL 101E MKII
Subwoofers: REL Carbon Specials
Conditioner: Shunyata Triton 3
Power Cables: Shunyata Sigma 1 & 2, Alpha 2, Delta and Venom
ICs and SCs: Wireworld Platinum 8
Rack: Artesania Exoteryc
AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.
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The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
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Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team
AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team
I upgraded the power supply on my Gigafoil v4 to a Weiss PSU 102. It’s very nice step up. But with the new model, you’re looking at $2000 before even investing in a SOTA linear power supply.
GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter