Thoughts / Suggestions on Pre-amps

[Randy Myers]

So now that the Audio Mirror pre-amp has not worked out (but very impressed with Vladimir and his handling of the issues) I think I may want to look into a new pre-amp. I also would like some opinions.

Currently I have two options, both are hooked and I can listen through either. First method is using my T+A DAC as the pre-amp. With this option the sound of digital is very nice, the DAC 8 has a good solid volume section that appears to be a good job.

The second options is to use my Dennis Had headphone amplifier as the pre-amp. It has pre-amp outs. The Had brings a little warmth to the table but because it does not have a remote (which my old bones appreciates) I still use the T+A in variable output mode for remote volume. The pre-amp section definitely appears to be an afterthought on the Had unit (however as a headphone amplifier it is rated with the very best!). It is not part of the main initial design and does suffer from a very slight hum (known issue). But it does add some tubey warmth...

The reason to be considering a dedicated pre-amp is I prefer separate units and as a traditionalist I am not a fan of multiple duties (i.e. DAC and pre-amp functions in one unit). I would also prefer a little more flexibility.

Yes, Digital is my main source but I prefer to have all components attached so if I have a whim to spin a disk, listen to the radio, etc., I can. With the current methods I do have a cheapy ADC that does convert the Tuner's output to digital and feeds into the DAC. It works, not the best but appears to be ok for background tuner functions. I can spin CDs through the a coax input but I cannot spin SACD's. However at this point I rip every disk and put it on the music server, therefore spinning is really not of huge importance, but would be nice.

For a separate pre-amp features that I prefer... multiple inputs (prefer both XLR and RCA), multiple outputs (again prefer both XLR and RCA), remote; tubes are not critical but also not to be discouraged. Solid hassle free operation is a must! Clean sounding is prefer over added features and glitz, although growing up in Binghamton I do make McIntosh an exception. Even though I prefer both XLR and RCA, I can deal with straight RCA ins and outs.

I am hoping to keep in the $1000 range, but would listen to other suggestions and probably could go a little higher. Would also consider trades involving the wonderful T+A amplifier I have sitting here strictly for backup usage. Anything used would have to be in excellent shape (for example any McIntosh would require absolutely perfect glass).

Ones I know worth considering (others?):
1) McIntosh
2) Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE (probably hoping for Stage 2)
3) Hattor passives sound intriguing... opinions? Would they work well with SET amplifiers?
4) Audio Research are always worth considering, I was happy with the one I had but really wanted the SET amps when I did the trade...

Bryston, Pass, Ayres, etc., are certainly worth considering....

So I am asking for opinions... stick where I am and say screw it ()... go the passive route... someone has a fantastic deal or would love to work a trade involving the T+A or might consider a deal involving the Dennis Had unit (insanely rare since all are hand made by Dennis himself as a retirement project, signed and dated by him on the bottom of the unit, and an amazing headphone amplifier).

So what do you guys think?

[CPP]

If everything sounds ok, I say stay where you are, save the money and enjoy the music. Everything you noted will cost you way over $2000 even on the used market, expect there is a W4S for $600 on the gon and you can always take it to EJ for a super tune.

[Randy Myers]

That one is on a bid with 6 days to go ... we can see where it ends up...

[AJ Soundfield]

If you don't mind owning a piece of Schiit, the Freya ticks all your boxes.
I have one and a) It works b) Without any noise, mismatching, etc. drama with both SS and tube out modes. Kind anti-audiophile hip/cool traits to just plain function with minimal fuss, but hey, it's $700 and made here too.
IMO, it's pretty transparent, has remote, etc, which ticks my boxes, since I'd rather not have a bunch of special effects widgets in my signal chain. YMMV.

cheers,

AJ

[Randy Myers]

Thanks Aj. I will check into this one. Wasn't there a thread here about this?

Any opinions on the Hattor? Would something like this work with SET amplifiers?

[aKnyght]

...although growing up in Binghamton I do make McIntosh an exception.

the mcIntosh c22 pre amp would seem to hit all your specs w/o the Bing' bling... except price. love the retro aesthetics of this piece. the c22 would most certainly be on my list of pre amps to audition.

not sure how practical this is but you might look for a dealer who will take the t+a amp on trade and see if you can get to an acceptable net price. of course, that goes for any piece you might buy. [also, you might check out the guys at www.stereobuyers.com to sell the t+a amp outright.]

alway great to support binghamton when you have the chance!!!

[Randy Myers]

I also prefer the retro style McIntosh look and feel to the glass look and flashy feel that seems to have become their trademark. Fro something like the c22 I would probably consider trading both the T+A and the Dennis Had ....

[AJ Soundfield]

Any opinions on the Hattor?

Don't know anything about the Hattor. Nice looking and priced passive. The Schiit can be used as a passive, like Hattor. Or active, SS or tube.

Would something like this work with SET amplifiers?

SET is a generic term for the type of amp. More importantly is will preamp X work with your amp. Schiit has specs provided for input/output impedances, etc, so perhaps you could query Vlad regarding his amp having any potential mismatching. Probably won't, but you never know. Schitt does have a return policy if you wish to, so at worst you lose a couple bucks for ship/restock.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. can't recall if you are attending FLAX show?

[Randy Myers]

I assume that is an LA show... when is that?

How does the Freya work in either passive or active? Is this automatic or selectable? This unit does look interesting.... I would get it with basic tubes... all my gear uses 6SN7 so I have definitely been research and picking up some NOS tubes...

Now here is a silly question. Since this uses 4 tubes, do they have to be 100% matched or can you say use a pair of one type and a pair of another, for example... like a pair of Sylvania Chrome Tops and a pair of RCA Gray Glass.... or should you really make sure to use 4 of the exact same tubes?

Ok... just looked up and answered my own question.... there appears to be a button on the remote to switch between passive and active, and also on front of unit...
"3 Output. Press to change between passive and tube hybrid buffer output."
"3 Buffer LED. This light is on when using the JFET buffer.4 Tube LED. This light is on when using the tube gainstage."
"6 Output Select. Press to select the output stage: passive, JFET buffer, or tube gain."

Also, it looks like one set of tubes is for output stage and the other set is for voltage gain stage so it would make sense that 2 different set of tubes could be used:
"The right tubes are for the differential voltage gain stage. The left tubes are for the cathode follower output stage."

The Schiit pre-amp looks very interesting indeed!!! It may be a winner ....

[AJ Soundfield]

I assume that is an LA show... when is that?

You funny guy. https://floridaaudioexpo.com/
<1 month.

Yes, all 3 modes switchable via remote and plenty tube rollin' potential....more features to drive audiophiles nuts. Schiit knows their clientele

[Randy Myers]

So AJ, you agree that you should be able to use different pairs of tubes in the voltage gain and the output stages? I have a few different sets of 6SN7 tubes, but always bought in pairs...

Follow-up:

I have read that you definitely can use different pairs of tube for each stage...

The Freya does look very interesting. Definitely would love some more input and opinions... as always, I both value and appreciate everyone's input.

[Audiophobiac]

If you are happy with your current set up I would say forget it and go buy more music and enjoy. On the opposite side of that, have you considered PS Audio? I have not heard their gear, but I know they have a trade-in program. You might want to give them a call.

[Oly]

Since you like to experiment, the Freya seems like a good fit. Also, there is a good resale market for Schiit products when the time comes to try something else.

[Randy Myers]

If you are happy with your current set up I would say forget it and go buy more music and enjoy. On the opposite side of that, have you considered PS Audio? I have not heard their gear, but I know they have a trade-in program. You might want to give them a call.

I have tried some PS Audio units before. They seemed to sound fine and appeared to be built well. They just never seemed to give me warm and fuzzies... not sure what it was but never grabbed me.

[Randy Myers]

Since you like to experiment, the Freya seems like a good fit. Also, there is a good resale market for Schiit products when the time comes to try something else.

I have been serious thinking the same thing. The few reviews I have seen all like the unit, a lot! I like the flexibility... plenty of inputs and outputs, using the same tubes as my other gear so I have several rollable tubes to try.... I also really like the idea of being able to run in passive, solid state, or tube mode. Talk about flexibility! Also having a remote, made in the US... 5 year warranty and return policy if it does not fit the bill is all pretty good stuff... plus it is easy on my budget....

Hmmmm... I might be convincing myself that a I have a Schiit future ....

[nc42acc]

Randy I have the Hattor and Freya. The Freya is at the office but can give you a comparison sometime this week.

[Mechnutt]

Randy, you should consider AVAHiFi by Van Alstine. He makes gear that performs above their price points. His tube preamps are excellent. He has a 30 day no questions asked return policy with no restocking fee. He can customize them to some extent and probably can impedance match it to your amps. He has several models.

As far as the Freya is concerned, I have read many mixed reviews.

For solid state, although above your price point consider a used Parasound JC2 preamp. They are extremely quiet and clear. I have a friend that has one and it is excellent sounding. Way better than the ARC preamp he replaced it with.

[nc42acc]

Randy I have a ARC LS27 I need to sell if you are interested in another ARC preamp.

[Randy Myers]

Hey Marty... maybe, but probably priced out of my range.

[Randy Myers]

Randy, you should consider AVAHiFi by Van Alstine. He makes gear that performs above their price points. His tube preamps are excellent. He has a 30 day no questions asked return policy with no restocking fee. He can customize them to some extent and probably can impedance match it to your amps. He has several models.

As far as the Freya is concerned, I have read many mixed reviews.

For solid state, although above your price point consider a used Parasound JC2 preamp. They are extremely quiet and clear. I have a friend that has one and it is excellent sounding. Way better than the ARC preamp he replaced it with.

Hmmm... I have not read anything but good reviews. The few complaints I have read are almost silly... one was complaining that when in passive mode why is power still going to tubes... ok, valid I suppose but I won't lose sleep over it. If anyone is that concern I also read that you can simply remove the output tubes.

Another complained about power switch on the back... ok, again valid but again, not a deal breaker... it appears to be in a place that will be easy to get to, and this never really bothered me when I had a First Watt amp...

Another complained about why there is very low level noise (only right next to the speakers) when in tube mode. I would be more concerned if there was not... I mean some very low level noise is to be expected with tubes...

I also read a review where he directly compared the pre to a Parasound and basically stated that the Schiit was quite a bit better in his view.

[Randy Myers]

Randy I have a ARC LS27 I need to sell if you are interested in another ARC preamp.

PM sent

[Mechnutt]

Which Parasound? The P5 and P7 are ok preamps, the JC2 is in another league. I have read a few people calling the Freya anything but tube sounding and some have called it bright. But, its all about system matching and personal preference. I can't speak for the Freya myself, having not heard one but I have heard the AVA and JC2 along with the P7.

[Jack]

Randy

If you are trying to stay with a tube preamp from a reputable long term company with a return policy plus keep the cost down I would go with the AVA. If you get it and don't like it send it back. Neither the Schitt or the Parasound's would interest me.

https://avahifi.com/collections/prea...=5571492675614

[Randy Myers]

Which Parasound? The P5 and P7 are ok preamps, the JC2 is in another league. I have read a few people calling the Freya anything but tube sounding and some have called it bright. But, its all about system matching and personal preference. I can't speak for the Freya myself, having not heard one but I have heard the AVA and JC2 along with the P7.

Sorry, I do not know which model Parasound he was referring to. It was just one of many things I stumbled upon. I have never heard a Parasound and certainly can't speak one way or another about them ...

I have never heard a Schiit unit either but know several people who have owned their products and almost all have very high opinions about them.

The reviews that I have read all appear positive and the unit certainly has a ton of flexibility. Being able to use it Passive, Solid State, or Tubes is quite intriguing....

[Randy Myers]

I have decided to give the Schiit a try. It just seems like a very unique piece and who knows, maybe it is one of those giant killer products. Most of what I read suggests this. If not, it is returnable. I am very intrigued by the flexibility the pre-amp offers.

[Randy Myers]

Randy I have the Hattor and Freya. The Freya is at the office but can give you a comparison sometime this week.

Hey Marty, I would love to hear your comparisons.

[nc42acc]

I will listen to the Freya tonight. If my memory serves me it was very uneventful and not very dynamic.

[AJ Soundfield]

I have decided to give the Schiit a try.
If not, it is returnable.

Yep. Only thing you have to lose is the possible restock fee and 2 weeks of your time. If other options offer this also, by all means...
The only way you know how it fits into your system and taste, is to fit it into your system. Not someone else. Keep an open mind and have fun regardless.

cheers,

AJ

[Randy Myers]

Thank you to everybody who were kind enough to add their input, experiences, and opinions. I appreciated every single one of them!

[nc42acc]

This Schiit ain’t too bad. Forgot how clickety click click it is. Not sure what tubes I have in it but very pleasant. A little flat and two dimensional and lacking at the extremes but everything is in the right place. For the money it is hard to talk any Schiit about it. Randy I think you will be surprised.

[nc42acc]

Here is my new ARC vibration platform.

[nc42acc]

Impressive.

[Randy Myers]

This Schiit ain’t too bad. Forgot how clickety click click it is. Not sure what tubes I have in it but very pleasant. A little flat and two dimensional and lacking at the extremes but everything is in the right place. For the money it is hard to talk any Schiit about it. Randy I think you will be surprised.

Hey Marty, Thanks for checking it out for me! I have some NOS tubes that I can roll in. Was thinking of using some early '50s Sylvania Chrome Tops for the voltage gain stage and some RCA Gray Glass for the output stage.

[nc42acc]

I prefer the FET stage much more than the tube setting. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Just know the volume control I think is relay controlled so it is a little noisy....click, click, click.....Well it is a lot noisy

Hey Marty, Thanks for checking it out for me! I have some NOS tubes that I can roll in. Was thinking of using some early '50s Sylvania Chrome Tops for the voltage gain stage and some RCA Gray Glass for the output stage.

[Randy Myers]

Hehe... the click, click, click will probably not bother me. I always preferred a volume that let me know, one way or another, when I changed it ... The volume is relay, 128 steps actually which is much finer control then most using this type of control out there.

I well definitely compare the three different modes of operations. Who knows, I might find that I prefer different modes for different types of music ...

I am still trying to figure out how they offer their equipment at the prices they do? I know they use minimalistic designs and keep overhead and costs down... but still.... it makes me believe that a lot of companies build far too much profit margins into their products... probably because of distribution channels, etc., etc.

I like it when companies keep extraneous costs down and offer better values. It appears that this is Schiit's mode of operation... we will see. It reminds me of a store back in Syracuse who was known for super low overhead and passed the savings onto their customers. When it was time for doing a bit of a face life I advised them to be very careful about not making the store too glamorous... keep the open rafters low cost appearance.... sure put fresh paint, etc., but do not go overboard because this is what their patrons expected.

[Randy Myers]

We have Schiit... the Freya arrived. Of course hooking a major component like a pre-amp is a pain in the butt, especially when you cannot easily get behind racks . Anyway, it definitely needs some break-in... my experience has been that every component needs a good 50-100 or more to relax and open up. I would say the Schiit is no different.

First couple albums... so far I kind of like the sound, but it definitely needs some break-in time. Love the flexibility. Very quite... nice sound stage that will open a bit with break-in.

I am using some Sylvania Chrome Top Bad Boys for the voltage gain stage and RCA Gray Glass for the output stage. Might try some rolling, but definitely will do some breaking in first. So far I prefer tubes over passive or FET. (I moved the Chrome Tops to the Output Stage and put my later generation Sylvania NOS tubes in the Voltage gain stage because low noise tubes are most important here while the output tubes will affect sound the most, or so I read).

Right out if the box I have to say it is surprising. This might actually end up competing against other pre-amps I have had, including the Audio Research! Time will tell but so far it is sounding pretty impressive.

Which brings me to the question of how can Schiit create such a solid quality, really nice sounding product for a fraction of what other companies do? It has all the usable features, without any flash, using 6SN7 tubes, and comes with a metal remote. The remote may not give anything fancy but it gives access to everything I need a remote for.

If this continues to improve as it burns in and really smooths out and opens up, which most every new unit I have had has done then this will bring into question my view on some of these crazy level products. I guess if I had unlimited funds it would not matter; or maybe my ears just are not that good (although I do hear obvious differences with my SET amps and DSD, etc., etc.)... but how can they offer this flexible and great sounding pre-amp for $699 while other companies charge several thousand dollars? The world may never know ...

[Randy Myers]

A brief update... first off the pre-amp is starting to settle in a bit. Certainly quite a bit more to go. So far I am amazed at how good it is, especially for the money, but it is actually very good regardless of the cost. I still have no idea how they offer this type of pre at this price.

Sound stage and separation is good, certainly as good as any pre-amplifier I have had in the system to date. Bass is surprisingly good... maybe a very tad over the top side, but again it is smoothing slightly with more hours. I have confidence that this will continue. Over all sweet sounding and approaching anything I have had, so with more break-in I think it may very well compete with even the ARC I had. Granted, I have never had a higher end model but for what I can afford .... Would love to try something a little better; yes Marty would love to try the LS27 if I decide to put the T+A amp back on the market and sell it ....

I do hear distinct differences in the Passive, FET Buffer, and Tube Output Stages. All are nice, but I do prefer the Tube Stage and do enjoy the higher gain from tubes. One thing I have noticed is tube rolling does apply here. I also noticed the RCA Gray Glass tubes definitely cause much more noise in the Freya. Right now I am using the Russian NOS in the Voltage gain stage and the Sylvania early 1950's Chrome Top Bad Boys in the Output which seems to work particularly well.

I might grab some Black Treasure CV-181-Z tubes next, which is what Vladimir told me is his favorite tube in the Audio Mirror SET amps, and then roll the 1956 CBS Brown Base into the pre. I am thinking the Sylvania Bad Boys in the Voltage Gain and the CBS in the Output.

Anyway, enjoying the pre so far and unless something else comes my way in the next week or so this will probably be a keeper!

[Swisstrips]

What Arc did you have previously?

[Randy Myers]

I had an Audio research LS-17se. A lower end model, but it was in brand new condition and was less than 2 years old. I liked it quite a bit, but ended up selling it to purchase the SET amplifiers. I was planning on using the Dennis Had headphone amp as the pre-amp. It worked but it is obvious that the pre-amp section was an add-on and not part of the original design. It is a fantastic headphone amp, I would say one of the very finest out there, but did not do the trick as a pre-amp. So far I have been very surprised with the Schiit Freya. It is still breaking in but initial impressions are very positive!

[Randy Myers]

To be fair I did not have the opportunity to listen to the ARC with the SET amplifiers (it was sold to purchase the amps), and therefore will never be able to say weather the Freya sounds better then the ARC did. Honestly it is surprising to even be thinking in those terms. What I can say however, is that the current configuration with the Schiit Freya and the Audio Mirror SET amplifiers (along with the amazing T+A DAC, Roon and HQPlayer, etc.) is by far the best that my system has ever sounded!

I just ordered some Black Treasure tubes and will do some rolling with the other tubes. Hoping to eak out even a little bit more performance!

[AJ Soundfield]

I pulled the Freya out of storage and hooked up to test with some new speakers. I prefer the tube mode. I find it more neutral than typical "tube" sound, so not surprised it meshed well with your SETs Randy. A bit too much syrup can be a bad thing IMO. YMMV.

p.s. Randy, you still didn't say whether you're going to Fl Expo

[Randy Myers]

Hehe AJ... sorry, I can't make a 3000 mile trip for the Fl Expo ....

[Randy Myers]

The more I use the Freya the more I like it. I am very impressed with its features; 2x XLR, 3x RCA inputs, 1 XLR and 2x RCA outputs. Switching between Passive, FET buffer, and Tube output stages. I hooked it up to the T+A amp yesterday. I really heard the difference in the Passive and FET buffer versus with the other amps. Passive was very nice. With the SET amps I thought Passive was quite thin but FET was better. But with the SET amps the tube stage was definitely my favorite.

This is impressive to me in that the preamp with its various modes can really show a difference with different amps. On the tube side rolling seems to works very well! I like that the volume is 128 step relays, the remote feels very nice and does everything I need in a remote. I also like that it is fully balanced!

Over all I am enjoying the Freya, probably as much as any preamp I have owned. Amazing when you consider that it sells for only $699! As a comparison the most expensive preamp I have owned sold for $5500.

[joeinid]

That’s pretty awesome Randy. My brother bought one and loves it too. I’ll have to go listen to it.

[Randy Myers]

Yea Joe, I think you might be surprised. It certainly has shocked the hell out of me. Plan and simple, it is a very good, flexible, straight forward preamp for an insanely good price. If it continues breaking in and improving as I expect I cannot imagine not being totally happy with the Freya!

[Randy Myers]

Well decision day is upon us. Tomorrow is the last day to return the Freya. Even if it was not only $699; if it was three times the price or maybe even a lot more I would think it is a impressive. I know I have not had any of the very top end preamps but from all those that I have owned I belief Freya maybe my favorite. I love the flexibility, I love the feel of the controls and remote, and I love how it works well with tube rolling, but most of all I love how good it sounds... yes the Schiit Freya is a keeper, and considering what Schiit charges for it I would call it a shocker!

[nc42acc]

Randy so which tubes do what in the Freya? I know you are using different ones for the different stages.

[Randy Myers]

Randy so which tubes do what in the Freya? I know you are using different ones for the different stages.

Their manual states that the right tubes are for Voltage Gain. I can only assume they mean the right tubes when looking at the pre-amp. The left tubes are for the Tube Output Stage.

From the Schiit manual:
"The right tubes are for the differential voltage gain stage. The left tubes are for the cathode follower output stage. All tubes are of the same type on Freya."

I am using the Sylvania Bad Boys on the right side. I am using the CBS Brown Base on the left side.

I read that in the voltage gain stage you want quite tubes and for sound quality you want your best sounding tube in the Output Stage. Hence the CBS to the left!

[Alrainbow]

Randy I use a ml no 26 pre it has a se and bal output and mine has the bal input option too.
buying the no 25 phono preamp. I feel most all of us need an active preamp
and if we use a preamp it must be able to drive our amps and interconnects too.

[Randy Myers]

I agree about being able to drive our amplifiers. The Schiit has 2 Bal inputs and 3 SE inputs, 1 Bal output and 2 SE outputs. Not only can it run fully passive, it can also run FET buffer output (SS), and Tube output.... it is also 100% balanced and comes with a nice functional metal remote. It pretty much checks all the boxes and it is VERY reasonably priced. And most important, it sounds very good with each of my three amplifiers.